Rival Claimants to the French Throne

[HouseMeriVinKian33]

I don't know, perhaps the Return of the King is not so far off. I personally am standing for a meritocracy in France and all other countries as well.

[Howtodrownfish]

Hey, I was reading the forums and thought I should add my own opinions. First, When the Valois line was dying out The Catholic League almost changed the French succession (with lots of support). Almost. Henry of Guise was very popular too...But with his death the Catholic League fell apart.

Another issue is that the Salic succession was created to keep the throne from Edward III of England. Ancient Salic laws of the Franks applied to what became Germany..not France.

So in other words I don't think the Senior Bourbon has a superior claim. Politics play a bigger role. If Henry IV hadn't of converted to Catholicism then the throne wouldn't of been his. If Henry, Duke of Guise wouldn't of been murdered then I'm pretty sure Cardinal Bourbon followed by the House of Guise would of been the successors of Valois.

So yeah, I think Phillip IV and his descedents gave up their succession rights by Treaty and their claim as Senior Bourbon is weak. I really don't have a passion for either candidates..but as an outsider looking in this is what I see and a topic that really hasn't been brought up.

[Konrad der Rote]

Originally Posted by Howtodrownfish

Another issue is that the Salic succession was created to keep the throne from Edward III of England. Ancient Salic laws of the Franks applied to what became Germany..not France.

But the Capetiens are Franks and the Estates-General from 1317 fixed frankish Common Law (Salic Law) as order of succession for France.

Originally Posted by Howtodrownfish

House of Guise would of been the successors of Valois.

The Guise are not Capetiens, no agnate line, no royal blood. Henry d'Navarre was premier prince du sang royal, the first agnate descendant of Saint Louis (1214-1270).

Sorry for my english. Konrad.

[Howtodrownfish]

Konrad, you exactly made my point. The Guise were not Capetien but were put forward and favored as possible successors to Henry III over the Bourbon Branch (after Cardinal Bourbon) or minor branches like the House of Courtenay. Remember the saying about Paris being worth a mass? Henry IV didn't become King only because he was Senior Capetien. He became King because he converted to Catholicism, and his biggest rival was dead. Lets also not forget that Henry V of England won Agincourt, and his son Henry VI was crowned King of France. Heck the fact that Louis Phillipe became King when Charles X, his son, and grandson still lived should demonstrate the power of politics and warfare.

Another fact is that the Spanish "Legitimist" Branch most likely died in 1936. I'd be safe to say The Duke of Cadiz may of been the legal father of Alphonso XII, but probably not the biological father. You may have to look outside the Spanish Branch for your "Legitimist" champion.

I really don't see France becoming involved with monarchy but if they did I'm pretty sure they would pick the French branch over the Spanish branch.

[Konrad der Rote]

Originally Posted by Howtodrownfish

Konrad, you exactly made my point. The Guise were not Capetien but were put forward and favored as possible successors to Henry III over the Bourbon Branch (after Cardinal Bourbon) or minor branches like the House of Courtenay.

But Henri III favored on deadbed his capetien cousin Henri d‘Navarre for succession, in consens with the salic law.

The Guise are the leaders oft he Catholic League, the enemies of the protestantic Hugenotts (Bourbon). After the death of Henri III, against his will the League proclamed the catholic cardinal de Bourbon, the oldest catholic(!) Capetien in agnatic line, but in consens with salic law. The Guise can’t ignore the traditionel law of succession, but they attempted to terminate the protestants out of succession. Then cardinal Bourbon died childless, the Guise taking over the throne as the powerfull catholic house, so their hope. The capetien Courtenay (the oldest capetien line in France!) play no role in this game, they never have political power.

Originally Posted by Howtodrownfish

Remember the saying about Paris being worth a mass? Henry IV didn't become King only because he was Senior Capetien. He became King because he converted to Catholicism, and his biggest rival was dead.

But the cardinal refused for his nephew, the senior-capet in agnatic line Henri d’Navarre, protestant but the son of his older brother. The cardinal placed the terms of the salic la wand the bloodline over religious confessions. Then cardinal Bourbon died in 1590 the leader of the League, Charles de Lorraine, duc de Mayenne (the first Guise-Pretender), failed to proclaim himself as new king, the Estate-General 1593 refuse his claim. Henri IV know the majority of France was catholic and do not accept a protestant king anymore, also the catholic european powers (roman Emperor, King of Spain). To end the civil war in France he convert to the catholic side (Paris being worth a mass), is crowned in Chartres (Reims was in blockade by the League) and tolerate the Hugenottes in the edict of Nantes.

Originally Posted by Howtodrownfish

Lets also not forget that Henry V of England won Agincourt, and his son Henry VI was crowned King of France. Heck the fact that Louis Phillipe became King when Charles X, his son, and grandson still lived should demonstrate the power of politics and warfare.

The base of the Lancaster claim was military power. The Dauphin Charles VII do not accept the tready of Troyes, as his father Charles VI take over the right of succession to Henry V. Jeanne d’Arc destroy the english hegemony in France and Charles VII is crowned king in Reims 1429. Henry VI is crowned in Paris 1431 as antiking against Charles VII, but he lost the war in France (and later in England too).

[Cory]

Today none of the two Pretenders are really known by the majority of French.

[Howtodrownfish]

Originally Posted by Konrad der Rote

But Henri III favored on deadbed his capetien cousin Henri d‘Navarre for succession, in consens with the salic law.

The Guise are the leaders oft he Catholic League, the enemies of the protestantic Hugenotts (Bourbon). After the death of Henri III, against his will the League proclamed the catholic cardinal de Bourbon, the oldest catholic(!) Capetien in agnatic line, but in consens with salic law. The Guise can’t ignore the traditionel law of succession, but they attempted to terminate the protestants out of succession. Then cardinal Bourbon died childless, the Guise taking over the throne as the powerfull catholic house, so their hope. The capetien Courtenay (the oldest capetien line in France!) play no role in this game, they never have political power.



But the cardinal refused for his nephew, the senior-capet in agnatic line Henri d’Navarre, protestant but the son of his older brother. The cardinal placed the terms of the salic la wand the bloodline over religious confessions. Then cardinal Bourbon died in 1590 the leader of the League, Charles de Lorraine, duc de Mayenne (the first Guise-Pretender), failed to proclaim himself as new king, the Estate-General 1593 refuse his claim. Henri IV know the majority of France was catholic and do not accept a protestant king anymore, also the catholic european powers (roman Emperor, King of Spain). To end the civil war in France he convert to the catholic side (Paris being worth a mass), is crowned in Chartres (Reims was in blockade by the League) and tolerate the Hugenottes in the edict of Nantes.



The base of the Lancaster claim was military power. The Dauphin Charles VII do not accept the tready of Troyes, as his father Charles VI take over the right of succession to Henry V. Jeanne d’Arc destroy the english hegemony in France and Charles VII is crowned king in Reims 1429. Henry VI is crowned in Paris 1431 as antiking against Charles VII, but he lost the war in France (and later in England too).

Cool Story Bro. We all know how it went down. Narrating history like a wikapedia page doesnt put forth any intelligent debate. The Lancaster claim was through descent from Edward III. Edward III was the nearest male relation by proximity of blood to the previous King of France. But yeah conquest does triumph over Salic Law. We all know Henry IV would never have gained the throne without converting to Catholicism. Anyway, who would you say the senior bourbon is? It is pretty wide known that Francisco De Paula was probably not the son of Charles IV, and that the Duke of Cadiz is not the father of Alphonso X11. That may not matter for Spainish Succession since that claim is from Isabella II but for France and the claim of Head of House it is. Just a nasty can of worms.

By the way the law was for descendants of Saint Louis only. The Courtney's were passed by non Capetian houses in the succession. So yeah, politics.