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  #261  
Old 07-15-2009, 06:03 PM
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family pact of 1761

hello,
another interesting point concerning as to wether the renunciation of king philip V of spain was valid or not, may concern the family pact of 1761.

can we assume that by the rununciation, he and his descendants ceased to be members of the french royal house or was it due to the fact they was royals of a another country ie spain ?.

on the 15 august 1761 kings louis XV of france and charles III of spain signed a family pact, whereby the kings of spain and naples were recognised members of "the august house of france".

surely as members of the french royal house, they (and descendants) had the full rights of succession to that throne ?.

ok, there was still the treaty of utrecht to consider barring the union of the two crowns........... but whats not stopping a monarch of spain ceding the kingdom of france to a male sibling or a younger son in the event that this may occur.
for lets face it, did not the adove king (charles III), cede the throne of naples to a younger son when he succeeded to the spanish throne.......
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  #262  
Old 08-04-2009, 09:23 PM
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Bourbon Claimant, Prince of his Line, Chief of the House of Bourbon

Louis, called Louis XX, Duke of Anjou, Chief of the House of Bourbon and Prince of his Line is a claimant to the Bourbon succession to the throne of France. He is married and lives in Latin America in Venezuela. He is relatively organized and has a pretty good sensibily as to the Estates.
www.royaute.org is his website. He has the public allegiance of several thousands at least and the somewhat conditional support of a number of other people like myself. His claims are serious.
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  #263  
Old 08-30-2009, 06:40 PM
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There is another side of this charles v of france had another son from Biette Cassinel whos decedents have never been mentioned -they are alive and well
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  #264  
Old 09-24-2009, 08:45 PM
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if there was such a thing as a french king & queen who would have the title? duke and duchess of vendome or the one young spanish couple( i dont remember their names....sorry)
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  #265  
Old 09-24-2009, 09:31 PM
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The question of who's the rightful heir to the French Throne is a rather complicated one and has been discussed at lengths in this thread - Who is the Rightful Heir to the French Throne?

Here is a summary in a nutshell:

1) The Orléanist pretender to the French Throne is Henri, Comte de Paris, Duc de France. His claims will be succeeded by his eldest son, François, Comte de Clermont (who is disabled and is expected to be succeeded by his younger brother, Duc de Vendôme).

2) The Legitimist pretender to the French Throne is Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou. The Legitimists are those, who regard Philip V of Spain's renunciation of his rights to the French Throne as void and illegal. Louis Alphonse and his wife, Maria Margarita Vargas Santaella have only one daughter (as of now), Eugenia, born in 2007. If they don't have male Heirs, then the Legitimist pretender to the Throne will be King Juan Carlos of Spain.

3) The Napoleonic pretender to the French Throne is either Prince Charles Napoléon (Napoléon VII) or Prince Jean-Christophe Napoléon (Napoléon VIII). They are father and son. This division aroused because of Prince Louis Napoléon's will (the father of Prince Charles Napoléon), which stipulated that Prince Charles should be bypassed in the line of the succession by his only son, Prince Jean-Christophe (who is only 22 now).
The Napoleonic line is descended from Napoléon Bonaparte's younger brother Jerome Bonaparte.
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  #266  
Old 10-14-2009, 03:16 PM
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Legitimacy questions

It rather amuses me that supporters of Louis-Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, call themselves "legimitimists".

No one on this forum has cared to mention that there are several reasons why his claim is disputed by the Comte de Paris:

1. The Treaty of Utrecht was an international Treaty signed by both the King of France & Navarre, Louis XIV, and his grandson, Felipe V, King of Spain, renouncing any claims Felipe's descendants might have to the French Throne- this would include Carlists and the Dukes of Parma. This Treaty ended a 12 year war which claimed the lives of many men. It cannot be ignored or set asside, except by a referendum in France following a majority vote in the National Assembly, regardless of what some people may say about the Law of Succession to the French Throne.

2. There remain serious doubts about the legimitimacy of Louis-Alphonse's family, the descendants of King Alfonso XII of Spain. This is because Alfonso's mother, Queen Isabel II was unhappily married to her Borbon cousin, Francisco de Assis de Borbon, who was widely believed by contemporaries to be homosexual. Even today, many people believe that at least some, if not all of her children maynot have been fathered by Francisco de Assis, expecially since the hot blooded Queen was known to have enjoyed the favours of several men.

Until this controversy can be finally resolved by DNA tests, no member of this Spanish line should be allowed to claim the French Throne, since France's Salic Law makes it clear that only Males born in the legitimate male line can claim the French Throne- If Francisco was not the father of Alfonso XII, none of his descendants, including the Spanish king Juan Carlos, and the duke of Anjou can even think about claiming the French Throne. And what of the chances of Juan Carlos agreeing to DNA tests, and exhumation of royal tombs- slim chance if he wants to retain his own Throne!

The Comte de Paris remains the safest and most legal claimant- recent DNA tests linked his family to the dead king Louis XVII who died imprisoned during the French Revolution. Enough said.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren View Post
If you support the Orléanists, then it's HRH Henri VII, Comte de Paris, formerly Comte de Clermont, Duke of France, Head of the Royal House of France;

If you think the Orléans are a usurping and regicidal branch of the Bourbon dynasty, loyalty would lie with Louis Alfonso, Duke of Touraine, Duke of Bourbon, Duke of Anjou, "Primogeniture Representative of the House of France."

If you are a Bonapartist you would support HIH Charles, Prince Napoleon, Head of the Imperial House of France;

BUT if you accept the intention to bypass Charles as stated in the will of his father, the late HIH Louis, Prince Napoleon, Head of the Imperial House, then the rightful Head of the Bonapartes is Charles's son, HIH Prince Jean-Chrisophe.

Plenty to choose from here! Most accept the Comte de Paris as the rightful heir to the Throne of France because he is the direct descendant of the last reigning King, Louis Philippe I.

Prince Charles Bonaparte is a descendant of Jerome Bonaparte, Napoleon's youngest brother, who reigned as King of Westphalia 1807-1813. Napoleon I's only son died in 1832 unmarried, and Napoleon III's only son was the Prince Imperial who died tragically in Zululand in 1879.
.
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  #267  
Old 10-15-2009, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domhangairt View Post
No one on this forum has cared to mention that there are several reasons why his claim is disputed by the Comte de Paris:
Both reasons 1 and 2 have been discussed extensively in this thread and others.
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  #268  
Old 10-17-2009, 09:41 AM
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Of course, the rightful heir to France, would be - although heavily handicapped - Prince Francois d'Orleans.
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  #269  
Old 10-27-2009, 11:43 AM
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heir to the French throne

I would seriously disagree with you about your comments re. republics. The constitutional monarchies of Western Europe have some of the highest standard of livings in the world! Sweden, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, etc. Yes, the majority of the French like their republic as most of the British like constitutional monarchy. You do not have to denigrate one to raise up another.
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  #270  
Old 01-12-2010, 04:48 PM
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The Rightful Heir To The French Throne

Can someone tell me.If the stories are true about Marie-Therese Charlotte,"Madame Royale" actually escaping the tower by having someone impersonate her where would her decendants fit into the royal line?
She couldn't claim the crown herself, but wouldn't her decendants have more of a claim to the throne than either the House of Orleans or the Spanish Crown?
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  #271  
Old 01-15-2010, 11:02 AM
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Would Madame Royale have been another person than the one who married her cousin the duke of Angoulême (may I precise that this is very, very highly improbable), and would she have got children, these children would have been highly sought-after in marriage as descendents of Louis XVI, but nothing else. No right to the French throne can be brought by a woman.
Which brings us to Domhangairt's fantasist comments, as he seems to find a right to French throne because of the parenthood of the present Orléans family and Louis XVII, while this parenthood is merely Habsburg parenthood in female line (because mitochondrial DNA, transmitted by women, is usually the best preserved), though of no matter in French succession.
And Warren is right to remind him that his points 1 & 2 have been extensively discussed here, may I simply remind him (1) that the Utrecht renounciations, if they had been valid, would have explicitely excluded the Orélans branch since 1850, and not only the elder branch... and (2) that in French succession, as based on Catholic rules, a prince's legitimate children are his wife's, there have been too many gossips upon queens and princesses fidelity with this rule, what would it have been if those suspicions could have excluded a prince from the throne!
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  #272  
Old 02-17-2010, 01:26 AM
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cannot understand why some one who follows the royal forum advocates for a republic,it appears they are just followers and not true sons and daughters of monarchies,god save the king,god save the queen!!!!
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  #273  
Old 02-17-2010, 11:35 PM
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in line for the crown

Naturally if there was a monarchy I'd go for Deberry.
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  #274  
Old 02-18-2010, 07:43 PM
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If the Bourbons were to become extinct (Spanish, Two-Sicilies, Parma, Orleans), who would next in line? As in, are there other legitimate Capetian lines left?
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  #275  
Old 02-19-2010, 06:49 AM
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Bourbon-Busset may enter the picture at some stage as this line is extant, though 'illegitimate'.
Wiki has an interesting article. The mother of the current Duke of Parma (Carlos Hugo) was a Bourbon-Busset.
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  #276  
Old 02-22-2010, 06:43 PM
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thank you warren for the link, as i had little knowledge of this branch of the bourbon family.....

yes it may to possiable for this family to enter the stage, one has only to look at the succession of the portuguese throne, the present claimant to that throne is the direct male descendant of the first king of portugal, though his descent is broken by two illegitimacies.....

king john I was the illegitimate son of king peter I, whilst the illegitimate son of king john was the direct male ancestor of the first king of the house of braganza, what is permissionable for the portuguse, could be also the same for the french if needs be. well at least after the legitimate lines of the house of bourbon as become extinct as empressrougue had stated !

come to think of it, was not the first king of portugal, also a direct male desendant of hugh capet, the progenitor of all successive kings of france and the house of bourbon !!....could the portuguese have a look in at some later stage if the house of bourbon-busset becomes extinct as well ?

well perhaps am dreaming here, its a fair point though, you might agree !
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  #277  
Old 02-23-2010, 06:07 AM
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EmpressRouge, the French succession rules stop at the end of Capetians in male, legitimate line.
Further, there is no rule.
Nowadays all dynast Capetians are Bourbons (including Orléans).
King Louis XIV tried to push his illegitimate sons just after, but his will was broken by Paris Parliament (which had no authority in succession laws, but all jurists approved this impossibility of determining who could become king/queen of France in case of a total extinction of legitimate Capetians).
What is stated is, in case of extinction of Capetians, the people (or God, in case of a miracle) would chose a new king (or queen).
It could be among illegitimate lines, or by women descent, or seeking Merovingians (Carolingians are totally extincted by male line since XIth century, but some French families may be Merovingians in male, legitimate line, such as the dukes of Gramont, the dukes of Mortemart, the house of Brosses... if Thierry I of Autun was a Merovingian).
Or any other solution.
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  #278  
Old 06-23-2010, 05:56 AM
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Why all this discussion??? Just ignore the revolution as if it never happened, and think that Charles X was the last Bourbon, now the pretender to the Bourbon dynasty should be restored! this is God's wish, they rule by divine right, how can any man interfere with God's plan?
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  #279  
Old 06-23-2010, 08:49 AM
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Sorry, but I can't understand your point; are you suggesting to ignore that the French revolution happened, or are you criticizing that the discussion in this thread doesn't consider that the French revolution happened?
However, a similar event can't be ignored, it would be unrealistic.
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  #280  
Old 06-23-2010, 09:27 AM
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With there being two 'competing claims' to the vacant French Throne [non-Imperial] it might be prudent to offer one of them that does not get restored the vacant title of Count de Foix and for that claimant to reign over the state of Andorra? Just a thought.
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