The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Non-Reigning Houses > Royal Families of France

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #181  
Old 12-20-2008, 11:28 AM
Courtier
TRF Author
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Arlington, United States
Posts: 850
Check out the long front page article in yesterday's Wall Street Journal dedicated to Prince Jean's engagement and his right or wrong claim to the throne. Fascinating !
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #182  
Old 12-21-2008, 06:19 AM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by pamk View Post
I remember very well the wedding of Carmen and Alfonso - a great show of pomp and all. A union of an older man with a roving eye and a very young woman who just couldn't believe her good luck. It was like the Franco family had hit the royalty jackpot and look where it has all ended.
Yes, even at the time the wedding was interpreted as a warning to Prince Juan Carlos.
Franco was making it clear he had an alternative future King of Spain in his back pocket if need be.
__________________

__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old 12-28-2008, 08:13 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 3
Responding to Thribette's post #187, the numerous marriages that almost immediately started to take place between French and Spanish dynasts, to which absolutely no one objected, make the intention of the Utrecht renunciations very clear: that no one in future, apart from Felipe V and his heirs, should claim Spain in succession to the Queens of Louis XIII and XIV, and no one should claim France in succession to Felipe V. It was never intended that any descendant of Felipe V should be excluded from France, and any descendant of the other French princes from Spain. Even though certain of the various renunciations could be read that way, what actually happened, without protest, shows the intent. The actual proscriptions on succession were faithfully observed until 1883, when it happened that the person who would have been in succession to France from Felipe V had been excluded from Spain, so decided to ignore the most solemn oath of his ancestor. And so have his successors since.

I happen to believe that the oaths of Kings should be observed. The argument that Felipe V had no power to make such an oath is contentious to say the least, and Vincent among others on this thread has countered it most ably. The situation had never arisen before, that by ordinary laws of descent the Crowns of Spain and France would descend to one head. This was obviously intolerable to the other Powers, and no one suggested it should happen. The obvious solution was that a French prince not in direct line should succeed to Spain, renouncing France, while all other French princes renounced Spain (which no one ever argues about). This is what happened, though it was far from straightforward, the little matter of the War of the Spanish Succession occurring first. It was a precedent, so what? Precedents had been set before, the inheritance of Spain and the Indies was surely a grave enough matter to justify setting another one.

If you hadn't gathered, I am not at all a supporter of Luis Alfonso, and entirely one of the Comte de Paris. It is true that there is little possibility of the Kingdom of France ever being restored. The possibility is reduced still further by monarchists being unable to decide on even whom to support. I wish that all could agree on the true legitimate candidate, the Comte de Paris. But that, I suppose, is even less likely than a restoration of either candidate!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #184  
Old 12-29-2008, 04:54 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mutzig, France
Posts: 101
Maria Olivia,
Juan III was the son of "Don Carlos", the brother of Fernando VII, king of Spain, who refused his niece Isabel II could become queen of Spain instead of him. This was not the only reason, in fact, there were acute political and social problems, such a conservative prince as Don Carlos could not accept the new government that was violently at the opposite.
His son Juan III (III for France), who was rather more liberal, did not follow his father's way and took the "incognito title" of "conde de Montizón", after having abdicated (for his carlist "rights" upon the throne of Spain) in favor of his elder son, who was more combative.
Although the Count of Chambord didn't like much Juan III (who had married the princess Count of Chambord loved, and made her unhappy), he had to follow the dynastic laws...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old 12-29-2008, 05:06 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mutzig, France
Posts: 101
Pamk, you are just proving the efficiency of the Orléans strategy from about 1870.
In France, a prince is not forced to marry a princess, as we say "the cock anoblishes the hen", which is not a very delicate expression... :-))

1880,
Quote:
It was never intended that any descendant of Felipe V should be excluded from France, and any descendant of the other French princes from Spain.
Yes, it was, and it was repeated several times in the act of renunciation, and this is really what was written and intended.
Felipe V signed the renunciation sincerely because his grandfather Louis XIV, who knew he was too honest to lie, had made him believe the renunciation was valid. At the same time, Louis XIV asked the duke of Saint-Simon to write a little book stating that only the Chamber of Peers of France could valid such a renunciation, in order to calm Queen Ann who wanted to make it valid by the États-Généraux, which Louis XIV didn't want, of course, it would have given much more strength to the renunciation...
Only three months after the renunciation, Louis XIV's best lawyers published a book proving that Felipe V's renunciation was invalid.
It is not known when Felipe V was entered of the fact his renunciation was invalid, but in 1721, when his nephew Louis XV, still a child, got sick, he sent a letter to the French Parliament, to be opened in case of death of Louis XV, where he announced his coming back from Spain as king of France, as it was his duty.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #186  
Old 12-29-2008, 08:25 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 134
Thribette, I couldn't agree more with you.

The Orleans belong to a cadet branch of the Bourbon Royal House which descends from Louis XIII. The only member of such house who reigned in France for 18 years was Louis Philippe (LP); amongst LP's ancestors we will find many illegitimate descendants of Louis XIV and his mistress Madame de Montespan. LP was a corrupt and ambitious king who caused economic chaos and left the Country soon after the first sign of revolt appeared; he had no guts to defend his throne and flew right away. LP, however, married into legitimate royalty and promoted royal marriages for his children.

In order to understand who would be the righteous claimant/heir to the French throne we have to see succession laws in France and how they were applied in history.

On the death of the last direct Capetian, King Charles IV (1294-1328), the throne went to Philip VI of Valois (1293-1350) who was a grandson of King Philip III (whose father was Louis IX "Saint Louis") of the direct Capetian Dinasty. The throne passed from father to son until the death of Charles VIII on 1498 (Philip VI- John II-Charles V- Charles VI- Charles VII- Louis XI- Charles VIII).

Upon the death of Charles VIII, the throne was claimed by Louis XII as great grandson of Charles V.

Louis XII only had 2 daughters, then the throne passed to Francis I, as great great grandson of Charles V; Francis I was smart enough to marry Louis XII's elder daughter.

Upon the death of Francis I the throne passed to his only son Henry II and then to Henry II's sons Francis II, Charles X and Henry III; the Valois dynasty came to an end with Henry III who was childless.

The first Bourbon who became King of France was Henry IV "the gascon" (born in Pau - Kingdom of Navarre), a ninth generation descendant in direct male line of Louis IX "Saint Louis". After Henry IV, it is very easy to follow who was the right heir to the French Throne as kings were his direct male descendants (Henry IV- Louis XIII- Louis XIV- Louis XV- Louis XVI- Louis XVII- Louis XVIII- Charles X).

Whether we like it or not, if we stick to the Succession Law which started with the first Capet on 987, we will come to the conclusion that the rightful claimant/heir to the throne of France is Louis Alfonso of Bourbon.

Given that the direct male line of Louis XV became extinct with “Henry Count of Chambord” also known as Henry V (grandson of Charles X), we have to observe the direct male line of Louis XIV, no matter the number of generations in between:

Louis XIV- Louis de Bourbon (dauphin du France)- Philip V (King of Spain)- Charles III- Charles IV- Infante Francisco de Paula of Bourbon- Francisco de Asis of Bourbon (Infante and King Consort of Spain)- Alfonso XII- Alfonso XIII- Infante Jaime of Bourbon- HRH Alfonso of Bourbon- HRH Louis Alfonso of Bourbon.

The Orleans have right to claim as descendants of Louis XIII, but under traditional succession law in France direct male descendants of Louis XIV have a better right.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #187  
Old 01-21-2009, 10:23 AM
amedea's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: TORINO, Italy
Posts: 621
If we consider valid the renunciation of king Felipe V for him and his descendants to the french throne and we consider that Orleans lost their rights by voting the death of Louis XVI and by accepting the Constitution of 1830, the correct legimitimist pretender to the french throne are the descendants of Henry de Chambord's sister, Luise, and so .. Bourbon Parma; am I right?
however I've never heard that this branch of the family claims that throne
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #188  
Old 02-09-2009, 05:16 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: *********, Spain
Posts: 1,173
I found this story, this is obviously old, but I think this may be useful in resolving the question of succession in France, is the burial of Count of PAris. look!! the guests
THE FIRST:LUIS ALFONSO DE BORBON
..........................

http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/paris005.jpg
http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/p...paris002-1.jpg
http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/p...paris003-1.jpg
http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/paris001.jpg
http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/p...ana2/paris.jpg


I like the photo of the two pretenders to the throne of France shaking hands.
But later, the controversy has continued in France
(I do not know if this story was posted in this forum)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #189  
Old 02-22-2009, 10:35 PM
eshalis's Avatar
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, United States
Posts: 1
A descendant of Jean De Bourbon-Soissons is the only legitimate heir to the Throne of France. Someone moved my post to a different forum for some reason. I have a huge container of documents now. This was a family secret kept for hundreds of years due to the fact that we were/are? hunted by some unknown organization.

Sorry but all descendants of Louis XIV are illegitimate.
__________________
Descendant of Jean de Bourbon Sr [8 Dec 1627-19 November 1703] The Man in the Iron Mask. Son of Louis de Bourbon [1604-6 Jul 1641] Heir to Louis XIII
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old 02-23-2009, 08:00 AM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by eshalis View Post
...due to the fact that we were/are? hunted by some unknown organization.
It sounds very Dan Brown.
Your original post was moved here. The French Royalty subforum is for recognised French Royalty and not mysterious claimants with fertile imaginations.
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #191  
Old 02-24-2009, 04:28 PM
PssMarie-Elisabeth's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Fort Pierce, United States
Posts: 123
French Legitimists

Please Support Louis XX: Louis-Alphonse de Bourbon

Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*List of French monarchs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia*
__________________
" This coupe is too small! Go back and get the family carriage"
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old 02-25-2009, 10:32 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Workington, United Kingdom
Posts: 5
The Orleans branch are the rightful heirs to the French Throne. The preent Comte de Paris heads that branch & therefore should be acknowledged as the rightful heir.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #193  
Old 02-25-2009, 12:45 PM
PssMarie-Elisabeth's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Fort Pierce, United States
Posts: 123
Are you an Orléanist? .... that royal House is a secondary line of the House of Bourbon

"Bourbon monarchs ruled Navarre (from 1555) and France (from 1589) until the 1792 overthrow of the monarchy during the French Revolution. Restored briefly in 1814 and definitively in 1815 after the fall of the First French Empire, the senior line of the Bourbons was finally overthrown in the July Revolution of 1830. A cadet branch, the House of Orléans, then ruled for 18 years (1830–1848), until it too was overthrown."
__________________
" This coupe is too small! Go back and get the family carriage"
Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old 02-25-2009, 01:53 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Workington, United Kingdom
Posts: 5
Yes, I am.

They are the rightful heirs as decendants from Louis XIII.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 03-04-2009, 02:39 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mutzig, France
Posts: 101
Well, in France, kings are not chosen after the tastes of voters, but following preestablished rules, I am sorry that these rules point a prince you don't like...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #196  
Old 03-30-2009, 03:55 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Santiago, Chile
Posts: 38
Legitimist are a minory in France.
Luis Alfonso is indeed a spanish commoner with royal origins, he is His Excelence Luis Alfonso de Borbon without any noble title. His father Alfonso de Borbon-Dampierre was also His Excelence according to the will of his grandfather the king of Spain. It was Franco who made them royals. Probably Luis Alfonso will inherit a noble title for the part of his mother but not for the side of his father. They want to obtain from France what they couldn´t from their spanish side.

He is french not for his royal side but because his grandmother Emanuella is french.
If Emmanuela instead of being Dampierre her name be Lubormirstky Luis Alfonso will not be french.
It is absolutely no sense to still be blaming the Orléans for what their ancestors did.
If the Utrecht Treaty is invalid why is Gibraltar part of England?
Can you imagine if we do not recongnized international treatys how do frontiers will change in Europe and in all the world?
For legitimist Luis Alfonso is the right king of Spain and France and Alfonso XIII was king of France, just with that is enough for me to not accept the legitimst pretentions.
Henri Count of Chambord was very close to recover the throne but he refused to recognized a flag, supposing that he did recognized that flag, his heir was the Count of Paris.
Finally is well known that Puig Molto was the biologyc father of king Alfonso XII so was this person the senoir of the Bourbon family?
The real duke of Anjou is H.R H Prince Charles-Philippe´d´Orléans.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old 04-11-2009, 09:27 PM
PssMarie-Elisabeth's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Fort Pierce, United States
Posts: 123
No offense, but if you're not originally French by origin or if you do NOT live in France please refrain from making presumptions about the percentage of Legitimists and the like .....

I do happen to have friends from France and from what I gather - many French nationalists (not all of course) recognize Louis XX as the rightful heir to the throne.

* FYI *
__________________
" This coupe is too small! Go back and get the family carriage"
Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old 04-26-2009, 04:41 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mutzig, France
Posts: 101
Claudia, what is, up to you, a commoner?
To me a commoner is someone who is not noble (in the proper sense).
Of course the duke of Anjou is not a commoner.
About Spanish succession, I wonder what you know/don't know exactly, but I suggest you to visit the sites Heraldica and chivalricorders.com, which are in English and very documented, you will understand why the duke of Anjou's grandfather, "Don Jaime" was the legitimate heir of Spain, rejected by his own father because nearly deaf and mute but to Spain it is not a cause of elimination. He and his son authorized Don Juan Carlos, in a 1969 act validated by the Spanish Parliament, the Cortes (none act about succession can be valid in Spain without Cortes ratification), to become the next king of the new monarchy instaured by Franco. Commoners?
Of course, they remained the French royal family, so they remain full royals by this side...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #199  
Old 04-26-2009, 05:27 PM
Nico's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 1,317
Quote:
No offense, but if you're not originally French by origin or if you do NOT live in France please refrain from making presumptions about the percentage of Legitimists and the like
I'm french and i live in France and i can say that "Louis Alphonse" is totally unknown from the vast majority of the french. They simply don't care about him. For the few knowing a little bit more the "Legitimist case", he's considered as a folkloric, and foreign, figure. The Orleans and even the Bonaparte are far more respected in parisian circles.
The last legitimist heir to the french throne was the Comte of Chambord. Case closed.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #200  
Old 04-30-2009, 09:16 AM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Santiago, Chile
Posts: 38
For legitimists he may be a royal but in facts he is not.Of royal origins but Just a spanish commoner.
The duke of Anjou is His Royal Higness Prince Charles Philippe of Orléans.
On Saturday we will see the wedding of the real heir to the french throne: Prince jean de France Duke of Vendome.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Queen Victoria (1819-1901) TOMMIX British Royal History 328 10-20-2014 07:26 PM
Stuart Succession and Jacobite Pretenders hillary_nugent British Royal History 136 09-28-2014 08:12 AM
Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants aj00192557 The Imperial Family of Russia 954 08-26-2014 05:28 AM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth charlene crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit current events dutch royal history engagement fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta leonor infanta sofia jewellery jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympic games olympics ottoman poland pom pregnancy president hollande president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess anita princess astrid princess beatrix princess charlene princess laurentien princess mabel princess madeleine princess marilene princess mary princess of asturias queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit the hague visit wedding



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:22 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]