Questions about Names, Styles and Titles


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Warren

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After his father died the new Comte de Paris awarded his wife and himself the title of "Duc [and Duchesse] de France", but although he refers to her as Duchesse de France, he still calls himself Comte de Paris. Any idea why? And did he create Prince Charles-Philippe d'Orléans Duc d'Anjou just to cause trouble and/or undermine Louis Alfonso?
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Of course he is going to try to undermine Louis Alfonso. These two branches of the French Royal Family have been at loggerheads for so long.

I don't understand the titles of Duc et Duchesse de France. These are titles are without precedent. In Austria and Russia, you had Grandduchesses of the country, but in France there has never been anything like this.
 
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The title Duke of France is supposed to be a reference to the old title duke of the Francs bore by French royals who don't even belongs to his dynasty.

As far as French law is concerned, Louis Borbon is the only Duke of Anjou (it's written on his passport, according to Wikipedia). The other one is an impostor.

I personally think Henry use Cont of Paris because it's the most prestigious title, and because it's acknowledged even by the president of the republic.

PS:Who is the proper heir? I'm so lost!!:D
 
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Duke of Normandy?

Hello,

Can somebody help answer: "Who is the present Duke of Normandy?"
Is there such a title in present day royalty, noblility or aristocracy?

I know that William the Conqueror was Duke of Normandy and his descendants continued to be that also. But, what happened after the 100 Years Wars and France reclaiming Normandy. Calais fell back to France in Mary Tudor's reign.
Did France reinstate a new Duke of Normandy?

Also, there was a French nobleman in the 20's called 'The Marquis de la Falaise de Coudray. He married movie stars Gloria Swanson and Constance Bennett but returned to France during WWII.
What happened to him? Is he part of the Norman nobility?

Thank you for any answers that you can give me.

Regards,
Larry
 
So Queen Elizabeth II of Great Britain ie the British monarch still carries the title Duke of Normandy?
And the Channel Islands are considered French and part of Normandy vs part of England?

Im kinda confused by the Wikipedia article.........
 
Queen Elizabeth II is the Duke of Normandy - a title the Kings/Queens of England (and then subsequently of the United Kingdom) have held since William I who was the Duke of Normandy. However the Duchy of Normandy is now only recognised as being that of the Channel Islands and not Normandy itself in France from which the title originated.
 
Hugues Capet used the title, Duke of France, as well as Count of Paris.
So both of these titles, used nowadays by the head of the Bourbon house, are originally Capetian.

Please note - the Bourbons descend in a direct male line from Hugh Capet. The present Comte de Paris descends directly from Henry IV, first Bourbon King of France, and he himself descends directly from Robert Capet, a younger son of King St Louis, who married the heiress of the Bourbon title and founded the junior Capetian branch of Bourbon.

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William the Conqueror was Duke of Normandy and the title was held by his descendants, as a fief of the French Crown.
From the time of Edward III onwards, the English king also styled himself "King of France".
So Queen Elizabeth is not only Duchess of Normandy but also Queen of France.
Both her "Kingdom of France" and "Duchy of Normandy" are limited to the Channel Islands, since the rest obviously has been lost long ago ;) Kinda like Taiwan, I believe, who style themselves "China" although they lost mainland China long time ago.


However, I do believe that there were a number of French princes who held the title "Duc de Normandie" throughout the ages, although I don't believe any of them survived to adulthood or had any issue.
 
In fact, during the 100-year-war, the title of duke of Normandy that had been heired by kings of England through William the Conqueror, but that stil depended of the king of France (the king of England had some duties to the king of France for the duchy of Normandy) was confiscated to them for treason, it was the feudal rule. Only the islands (Jersey, Guernsey...) remained in possession of the kings of England, this is why they continue wearing the title.
Later, the title was given by kings of France to princes close to the crown.
The three first ones held effectively the duchy, while the last only wore the title :
- the elder son of king of France Philip VI, future John II;
- his elder son, future Charles V the Wise;
- Charles VII's second son, also duke of Berry;
- Louis XVI's second son, later Louis XVII, dead in the Temple.
The title has none helder now.
 
Prince Philippe of Orleans, the Count of Paris, was a claimant to the throne of France. He was actually Louis Philippe Albert. I know he was the grandson of Louis Philippe I, King of the French. I have seen him listed as Philippe VII in the Orleanist pretenders. Wikipedia mentioned "in 1848 to put him on the throne under the name of Louis-Philippe II, with his mother Helene as Regent,". Why is Philippe listed as Philippe VII in Orleanist claimants and not as Louis Philippe II?

Will Francois, Count of Clermont be recognized as Francois III?
 
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In 1848 he was the successor of Louis Philippe (I), King of the French. At that time there was another claimant to the French Throne, the Count of Chambord, whose regnal name would be Henry V, King of France. In 1883 the Count of Chambord died and the Count of Paris was his successor.
So basically the Count of Paris would have been Louis Philippe II as King of the French and Philippe VII as King of France. Since 1883 he was the claimant to both titles, under different regnal names.
 
Will Francois, Count of Clermont be recognized as Francois III?

I doubt it. His father the Count of Paris is still alive. Her brother Jean, Duke of Vendome is now recognized as the Dauphin.
 
Will Francois, Count of Clermont be recognized as Francois III?

No. If he had out lived his father, he would have been recognized as Francois III by those who support their claim to the French throne. But his father out lived him. It will be his brother Jean who will be titular king of France (for the orleanist claim that is). Its the same with a reigning monarchy. If Charles died before his mother, we wouldn't expect him to be recognized as Charles III.
 
Prince Gaston of Orleans, Count of Eu (1842-1922) was married to Princess Isabel, heiress to the Brazilian throne. Prince Foulques of Orleans, born in 1974, has the titles of Duke of Aumale and Count of Eu. Why did not any of Prince Gaston's three sons get the title of Count of Eu?
 
Philippe de France, Duke of Orléans, Louis XIV’s brother, was originally styled Duke of Anjou. Did he give up the title of Duke of Anjou upon becoming Duke of Orléans ? If, on the other hand, he retained the title of Duke of Anjou, why didn’t the title pass to his male descendants ?

Thanks for answering.
 
Philippe de France, Duke of Orléans, Louis XIV’s brother, was originally styled Duke of Anjou. Did he give up the title of Duke of Anjou upon becoming Duke of Orléans ? If, on the other hand, he retained the title of Duke of Anjou, why didn’t the title pass to his male descendants ?

Thanks for answering.

I am not sure, but per Heraldica, Duke of Anjou was only a nominal title with which the brother of Louis XIV was styled and carried with it no physical duchy which could be inherited by his heirs. The same applied to the next Duke of Anjou, who took the Spanish throne as King Felipe V. I assume that is why the Spanish royal family became "de Borbón" rather than "de Anjou".
 
The title of Duke of Orléans when available was bestowed upon the second son of a French king or the younger brother of the King.

Example the future Henri II was Duke of Orléans up until the death of the his older brother the Dauphin.

Monsieur was Duke of Anjou up until 1660 as his uncle,Gaston was Duke of Orléans ,after his death in 1660,Louis XIV bestowed on Philippe.The lower title of Anjou was then bestowed upon a younger son of Louis XIV.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Charles,_Duke_of_Anjou
 
That whole Comte de Paris and Duc de France is laughable. Prince Henri is the head of the proud and illustrious Maison d'Orléans and should be Monseigneur le Duc d'Orléans. That is a real, legal and historic title. What is wrong with that?

I hope Prince Jean will end his (grand)father's vaudeville and simply style himself Duc d'Orléans indeed:
 
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Titles of the sons of Henri II and Catherine de Médicis

Francois,Dauphin of France (later King)
Charles,Duke of Orleans (later King)
Henri,Duke of Anjou and Angouleme (later King)
François ,Duke of Alençon .
 
That whole Comte de Paris and Duc de France is laughable. Prince Henri is the head of the proud and illustrious Maison d'Orléans and should be Monseigneur le Duc d'Orléans. That is a real, legal and historic title. What is wrong with that?

I hope Prince Jean will end his (grand)father's vaudeville and simply style himself Duc d'Orléans indeed:


That Title was alreaday given to his uncle Jacques by his grandfather the late Comte de Paris, so it is not availible for Prince Jean.
 
That Title was alreaday given to his uncle Jacques by his grandfather the late Comte de Paris, so it is not availible for Prince Jean.

Which only illustrates the crazy situation. The Duc d'Orléans is - how logical- not the Chef de la Maison d'Orléans.

In every "normal" non-reigning family we see that the heads are the Duke of Bragança, the Duke of Bavaria, the Duke of Savoia, etc. But in this disfunctional House the Duc d'Orléans is neither the Chef, nor is the heir, nor is the heir's son but is a junior son of the previous head...
:ermm:
 
I thought that peerages given to French princes during the Ancien Régime were like the British ones, i.e. transmitted hereditarily by male-only primogeniture, but from what you guys are saying, they seem to be more like personal, courtesy titles.


I am actually confused, but maybe a French poster will be able to clarify it.
 
I thought that peerages given to French princes during the Ancien Régime were like the British ones, i.e. transmitted hereditarily by male-only primogeniture, but from what you guys are saying, they seem to be more like personal, courtesy titles.


I am actually confused, but maybe a French poster will be able to clarify it.

I don't think courtesy titles had peerages linked to them, but as stated in the Heraldica article in my earlier post (Heraldica is an extremely well sourced website), the titles given to princes at birth were mere courtesy titles, and they did not receive titles linked to actual domains until they reached adulthood.
 
Other Duchies bestowed on French Prince and Princesses

Dukedom of Berry
Duke of Albret - associated with the Royal House of Navarre
Duke of Valois
Duke of Angoulême
Duke of Alençon
Duke of Anjou

Following the death of Louise de Savoie mother of king François, all of her titles merged with the Crown.

Louise was Duchess of Anjou,Duchess of Nemours,Duchess of Angouleme,Duchess of Bourbon and Auvergne , Countess of Forez ,Clermont and Marche ,Dame de Beaujeu .
 
A few years ago Prince Charles Emmanuel de Bourbon de Parme requested to have the form of address Son Altesse Royale.

His lawyer, Maître Rosny Minvielle de Guilhem de Lataillade, explained: "The Republic abolished the monarchy, but not the nobility. It is normal for my client to be designated by the qualification of a Royal Highness. President M Nicolas Sarkozy, in his written response to the letter from the Prince de Bourbon de Parme, who asked for the exhibition (a much provoking exhibition by Jeff Koons) to be closed, named him 'Monseigneur'.

Baron Hervé de Pinoteau, historian and, among others, member of the International Academy of Heraldry, was for twenty-six years the private secretary of the late Don Alfonso de Borbón (father of Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón): "In 1986, the prefect of Hérault [M Yves-Jean Bentegeac], received a letter from the Palais de l'Elysée which ordered him to award all titles of nobility, including the qualification of a Royal Highness to Prince Alphonse".

This qualification on identity papers has no legal existence. "HRH is not a strictly legal statement. It is a qualification, not a title,” he explains. Unlike titles of nobility (Duke, Baron, Count...), which have retained a legal basis. Which means that 'HRH' accompanies the title of nobility - one is a Royal Highness and Duke of Anjou at the same time.

“It is an administrative friendliness, a deference towards the three dynasties, the three families which once reigned over France, even if legally, it is not founded. Let us not forget that France is, above all, a country of customary law.

Only princes of blood the blood of the Houses Bourbon, Orléans, and Napoléon, can obtain it, and from birth."

Baron de Pinoteau: "It is, in a way, the recognition of royal dignity. This distinction depends on the goodwill of the prefect or the competent minister. It is, neither more nor less, a kindness of the Republic."

“President M Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, who wanted to play both the man of the people as well the grand seigneur, made the titles of nobility disappear from the protocol of the Republic”, remembers Baron Hervé de Pinoteau. With the exception of the Duke of Orléans (Count of Paris) and the Duke of Anjou, who continued to be designated by their title within the walls of the Palais de l'Éysée. 'I think governments say to themselves: these princes are not dangerous people, so why make fun of them?'

Certainly, but then, why add it to identity papers, if it is simply a matter of protocol? In the Bourbon-Parme case against expo Koons, the prince's lawyer attached a copy of the passport (with HRH) to the investigation file, as did M Nicolas Sarkozy's letter. Two documents supposed to give credibility to his client's request.

Around 90 royal blooded people are said to have the qualification of HRH on their identity papers today. They do not all reside in France, dynastic confusion oblige.



Source: https://www.nouvelobs.com/rue89/rue...rivileges-pour-princes-de-sang.html#modal-msg

Thank you for summarizing the paywalled article.

Interesting that the French republic recognizes as "princes" men who would not have been French princes on the basis of the dynastic protocol in effect while France was still a monarchy, since they were descended from members of the house who expatriated themselves and became members of foreign royal houses.

If the historian is correct that "Only princes of blood of the Houses Bourbon, Orléans, and Napoléon" can obtain the HRH on their passports, then whose competence is it to adjudicate whether someone requesting an HRH is a "prince of the blood"? And what about princesses?
 
Thank you for summarizing the paywalled article.

Interesting that the French republic recognizes as "princes" men who would not have been French princes on the basis of the dynastic protocol in effect while France was still a monarchy, since they were descended from members of the house who expatriated themselves and became members of foreign royal houses.

If the historian is correct that "Only princes of blood of the Houses Bourbon, Orléans, and Napoléon" can obtain the HRH on their passports, then whose competence is it to adjudicate whether someone requesting an HRH is a "prince of the blood"? And what about princesses?

Another point is that, as far as I understand, not all "princes du sang" were HRHs, but rather only those who were "enfants" or "petits-enfants" of France. Princes of the blood not in the preceding categories were originally accorded the style of Serene Highness only in the "Ancien Régime", although I believe that, towards the end of the Bourbon restoration and in the Orléanist monarchy, they were indeed upgraded to "Royal Highness".

Furthermore, "Royal Highness" was not a common style of address in France, not even in third person citations. As the lawyer acknowledges, a prince of the Royal House would be addressed or even cited as "Monseigneur", rather than "Royal Highness",
 
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Jean, Count of Paris is the current head of the House of Orleans.
Can the surname of the French royal family be Bourbon-Orleans?
 
Shortly after his announcement about the titles of princes who marry in violation of the house rules and their wives and children, the Count of Paris issued another announcement.

https://comtedeparis.com/rappel-des...es-de-la-maison-de-france-apres-leur-mariage/

The announcement stated that any "Princess of the House of France" who marries loses all the "surnames, designations, titles and predicates of the House of France", and takes the surnames, designations, titles, predicates, and rank of her husband.


Rappel des usages à propos des noms et titres des Princesses de la Maison de France après leur mariage

Domaine Royal, le 1er août 2023

Il y a quelques jours je rappelais les usages de la Maison Royale concernant le mariage de ses Princes.

Ces usages se sont imposés de tout temps au sein de la Maison de France. Il n’est pas possible de se réclamer de la Maison Royale si on n’en respecte pas les règles. Il appartient d’ailleurs au Chef de la Maison de France de veiller à leur application et à leur respect.

Je me permets de le faire ici à propos de l’utilisation des noms et titres des Princesses de la Maison de France après leur mariage.

« Lors de leur mariage les Princesses de la Maison de France, filles ou petites-filles de France ou encore Princesses du sang, perdent leurs noms, qualifications, titres et prédicats de la Maison de France. Elles adoptent les noms, qualifications, titres et prédicats de leur mari dans la Maison duquel elles prennent rang, dans le respect des règles de celle-ci. Elles ne doivent pas en conséquence conserver les qualifications, titres et prédicats qu’elles avaient antérieurement dans la Maison de France, en les faisant suivre de ceux de leur mari. Par exemple, Son Altesse Royale la Princesse X de France ou Y d’Orléans qui épouse le Comte Z s’appellera la Comtesse Z et non pas Son Altesse Royale la Princesse X de France ou Y d’Orléans, Comtesse Z. »


It's certainly noticeable how this announcement has drawn less criticism than the announcement about princes, even though it goes much further. Unlike princes, who preserve all of their titles if they marry in compliance with the house rules and only lose their HRH if they do not, princesses lose all of their titles and even their surnames(!) even if their marriage is fully compliant with the house rules.

On another note, I do not understand how it is possible for the Count of Paris to decree that the princesses lose their surnames when the French Civil Code is clear that legal surnames do not change upon marriage.
 
Thanks for sharing this announcement. Is it clear why he made it at this time? Which (former) princesses are affected by this decision?
 
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