Luis Alfonso de Borbón and Family, ('Duke and Duchess of Anjou') 2: 2008-2022


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In Spain Luis Alfonso does enjoy a title equal to a Spanish grandee (Excellency), and his French official documents recognize him as HRH the Duke of Anjou. (The titles claimed by all three pretenders to the French throne are recognized in the republic of France.)


Art.7 of the Royal Decree 1368/1987 states that:


"Los miembros de la familia del Rey Don Juan Carlos I de Borbón, que en la actualidad tuviesen reconocido el uso de un Título de la Casa Real y el tratamiento de Alteza Real, podrán conservarlo con carácter vitalicio, pero no sus consortes ni descendientes."


My understanding is that the article above covers the late Duke of Cádiz (Luis Alfonso's father), who was still alive in 1987, but it doesn't extend any title or the style of "Excellency" to Luis Alfonso properly.


I suppose that his style of "Excellency" in Spain comes then from his status as the heir to his mother's dukedom and grandeeship. Is that correct ?
 
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Art.7 of the Royal Decree 1368/1987 states that:


"Los miembros de la familia del Rey Don Juan Carlos I de Borbón, que en la actualidad tuviesen reconocido el uso de un Título de la Casa Real y el tratamiento de Alteza Real, podrán conservarlo con carácter vitalicio, pero no sus consortes ni descendientes."


My understanding is that the article above covers the late Duke of Cádiz (Luis Alfonso's father), who was still alive in 1987, but it doesn't extend any title or the style of "Excellency" to Luis Alfonso properly.

The article confirmed that Luis Alfonso did not have the right to a Spanish HRH or royal title, but did not deprive him of non-royal styles. On the list of guests attending the wedding of the Prince of Asturias he was "Excmo. Señor Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez-Bordiú".

http://www.casareal.es/ES/Documents/boda/info/InvitadosCatedral.pdf




Related to this discussion, Mbruno and I discussed the styles of non-royal descendants of the Spanish royal family in the thread below:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f21/titles-of-the-royal-family-3524-10.html#post2134723
 
Himself , his sons are Dukes without Royal Highnesses.
The Orléans are Dukes with Royal Highnesses.
 
Himself , his sons are Dukes without Royal Highnesses.
The Orléans are Dukes with Royal Highnesses.

Spanish and French law differ in that regard. In Spanish official documents, Luis Alfonso and his children are neither dukes nor HRHs. In French official documents (see post #603), they are both dukes and HRHs.
 
[.....]
To be more specific, Carlos de Bourbon de Parme claims to be Duke of Parma, but his claim is not recognized in Italy, the state which annexed the duchy of Parma.

Every year the Duke and Duchess of Parma are officially received in their former Duchies
To illustrate that the Italians take it serious: la principessa Luisa Irene, Marchesa di Castell'Arquato and la principessa Cecilia Maria, Contessa di Bercato, are carried by the mayors of Castell'Arquato respectively of Bercato: https://www.gazzettadiparma.it/resizer/-1/-1/false/1507466873485.jpg--.jpg?1507466873000

Here you see the Mayor of Parma, the Prefect, and the Commander of the Carabinieri di Parma escorting il principe Carlo Saverio and principessa Anna Maria di Borbone-Parma, Duke and Duchess of Parma and Piacenza: https://www.altezzareale.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/IMG_17371.JPG

If they were nobodies, this would not happen, with official Italy turning out.
 
:previous:

My comment was discussing only legal recognition of his claims to titles and sovereignty. Naturally, I would never describe any of the individuals discussed on this site as "nobodies". ;)
 
So, what's the purpose? Make sure they are American citizens (but why)? And/or to not favour Spain over France (or the other way around)?

I have the same questions.

All of the members of the House of Orléans (after the Law of Exile was repealed in 1950) have been born in France.

This bar never existed for the Infante Jaime and his descendants.
 
I just realized that Luis Alfonso called his son, born on the day before the count of Paris' funeral, Enrique (Henri in Spanish)...
 
I am really sorry not to be able to attend the mass this Sunday morning at the Val-de-Grâce chapel. I would have liked so much to remember there the late Duke of Anjou and of Cádiz, and his mother whose funeral was held there, and rejoiced in the birth of our little prince Henry, as well as my family.

By the way, the duke of Anjou is legally a Spanish Royal Highness as he was already so in 1987, though the Casa Real repeatedly treated him as Excellentísimo Señor.

And thank you very much, Iceflower, for the photo.
 
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By the way, the duke of Anjou is legally a Spanish Royal Highness as he was already so in 1987, though the Casa Real repeatedly treated him as Excellentísimo Señor.

And thank you very much, Iceflower, for the photo.




I don't think so. His father, the Duke of Anjou and Cadiz, was a Spanish HRH under Franco's 1972 decree. The royal decree of 1987 confirmed that title/style, but explicitly barred it from being transmitted to the Duke's offspring, including Luis Alfonso, who was never a Spanish HRH in his own right.




My interpretation is that D. Luis Alfonso is an Excelentísimo Señor though because his mother is a duchess and grandee of Spain and heirs to a grandeeship are entitled to the style of Excellency.
 
He is not Royal in Spain but
He is Royal in France
I cannot understand such a situation !
 
He is not Royal in Spain but
He is Royal in France
I cannot understand such a situation !

How can he not be royal in Spain, when he is the great grandson of Spain King Alfonso XIII. "People are not made royal, people are born royal"

"Louis Alphonse is patrilineally the senior great-grandson of King Alfonso XIII of Spain. However, his grandfather Infante Jaime, Duke of Segovia, renounced his rights to the Spanish throne for himself and his descendants due to his disability. The crown of Spain has descended to his second cousin, King Felipe VI of Spain. Through his mother, he is also a great-grandson of Spain's caudillo, General Francisco Franco and through his father, a great-great-great-grandson of Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom."
 
How can he not be royal in Spain, when he is the great grandson of Spain King Alfonso XIII. "People are not made royal, people are born royal"

"Louis Alphonse is patrilineally the senior great-grandson of King Alfonso XIII of Spain. However, his grandfather Infante Jaime, Duke of Segovia, renounced his rights to the Spanish throne for himself and his descendants due to his disability. The crown of Spain has descended to his second cousin, King Felipe VI of Spain. Through his mother, he is also a great-grandson of Spain's caudillo, General Francisco Franco and through his father, a great-great-great-grandson of Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom."

Exactly because of that. Had his grandfather not renounced his rights, history might have been different and he would probably be the king of Spain (although his mother being Franco's granddaughter might have prevented that from happening or from re-establishing a somewhat stable monarchy). Being a great-grandson of Franco surely does not make him royal...

In short, renouncing rights (or being stripped of your rights) has consequences and one of them is that your descendants are typically not royals. In Scandinavian countries the princes (who married without consent) themselves were already stripped of their titles. Very few would question whether their great-grandchildren would be royals; in most (all?) cases they are nobles but clearly not royals. Within other royal families even male-line grandchildren of a monarch (of an approved marriage) are not necessarily royals (for example the Dutch).
 
How can he not be royal in Spain, when he is the great grandson of Spain King Alfonso XIII. "People are not made royal, people are born royal"

The original posters were discussing his being legally a Royal Highness in France, but not in Spain. Incidentally, there are many monarchies where people can be made royal indeed - Luis Alfonso's father was one such person. :flowers:

Exactly because of that. Had his grandfather not renounced his rights, history might have been different and he would probably be the king of Spain [...]

His grandfather might have been king if he had not renounced his rights, but I don't think Luis Alfonso would have. Weren't descendants from morganatic marriages barred from succeeding to the throne until the 1970s?
 
The original posters were discussing his being legally a Royal Highness in France, but not in Spain. Incidentally, there are many monarchies where people can be made royal indeed - Luis Alfonso's father was one such person. :flowers:

His grandfather might have been king if he had not renounced his rights, but I don't think Luis Alfonso would have. Weren't descendants from morganatic marriages barred from succeeding to the throne until the 1970s?

I agree. That's why I said 'probably'; it doesn't seem farfetched to think that he might not have been born as other marriage decisions might have been taken in that case.
 
My interpretation is that D. Luis Alfonso is an Excelentísimo Señor though because his mother is a duchess and grandee of Spain and heirs to a grandeeship are entitled to the style of Excellency.

Do you mean his father? His mother wasn't yet a duchess in 2004 when he was styled Excelentísimo Señor at the wedding of the Prince of Asturias.
 
Do you mean his father? His mother wasn't yet a duchess in 2004 when he was styled Excelentísimo Señor at the wedding of the Prince of Asturias.


Probably it was a reflex when seeing the surname De Borbón: "ow, that must be Excelentísimo Señor". But it is not really a big deal. Even on dustbins in the street uou can often read Exc.mo Ay.to (The Most Excellent Council).
 
Do you mean his father? His mother wasn't yet a duchess in 2004 when he was styled Excelentísimo Señor at the wedding of the Prince of Asturias.




No, I meant his mother. Luis Alfonso could not derive the style of Excelentísimo Señor from his father because his father's grandeeship was not hereditary and his father wasn't an Infante either.


The Wikipedia seems to agree with me . Under "Titles and styles in Spain", Luis Alfonso is listed as "The Most Excellent" only after 2018, when his mother became a duchess and a grandee and he became the heir apparent to the grandeeship. I am not quite sure though why Wikipedia says that he was entitled to the style of "The Most Illustrious" before that.


With respect to the style used for him at Felipe's wedding, I suppose the Court wrongly assumed that any child of a Spanish HRH other than the Prince or Princess of Asturias is automatically an "Excelentissimo Señor", ignoring that this is only true for children of an Infante or an Infanta, which again is not Luis's case.
 
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Thank you for the clarification, Mbruno. :flowers: I'm unfamiliar with the laws and traditions in this respect; could you please also tell me what source(s) you are referencing in saying it is wrong to use Excelentísimo Señor for the son of a Spanish HRH other than an Infante or the son of a non-hereditary grandee?

Otherwise, while it is a possibility that the court is wrong and the statements on Wikipedia are right, I have seen too many untrue claims about titles and such on Wikipedia to consider it a reliable source when it provides no citations (which it does not do in this case), especially when an official source (the court) disagrees.
 
Probably it was a reflex when seeing the surname De Borbón: "ow, that must be Excelentísimo Señor". But it is not really a big deal. Even on dustbins in the street uou can often read Exc.mo Ay.to (The Most Excellent Council).

Yes, it is true that there are several public officials in Spain who are entitled to the style of Excelentísimo Señor. Nevertheless, the difference between an Excelentísimo Señor, an Ilustrísimo Señor and a plain Señor is quite important in the Spanish aristocracy. The list below shows that the styles that apply to royalty and the aristocracy according to the person's rank (as far as I understand).


  • The King (or the reigning Queen): Majestad
  • Children of the King (or of the reigning Queen): Alteza Real
  • Children of the Prince (or Princess) of Asturias: Alteza Real
  • Children of an Infante or Infanta of Spain: Excelentísimo Señor
  • Grandee of Spain (including all hereditary dukes): Excelentísmo Señor
  • Heir apparent to a grandeeship: Excelentísmo Señor
  • Younger children of a grandee: Ilustrísimo Señor (?)
  • Holder of a title of nobility without grandeeship: Ilustrísimo Señor
  • Heir apparent to a title of nobility without grandeeship: Ilustrísimo Señor
  • None of the above: Señor (?)


Note: Both husbands and wives of Spanish royals or aristocrats are entitled to use the styles of their spouses, except the husband of a reigning queen, who, post-1987, is only a Royal Highness and a Prince , and the consorts of Infantes/Infantas, who, post-1987, are no longer entitled to the style of Royal Highness (and the courtesy title of Infante/Infanta). However, husbands of Infantas who hold non-hereditary ducal titles belonging to the Royal House are normally accorded the courtesy style of Excelentísimo Señor, probably in analogy to the style that would be held by the husband of an ordinary duchess.

EDIT: In reply to Tatiana Maria, the styles of the members of the Royal Family (the King, the Prince of Asturias, the Infantes, the children of the Prince of Asturias, and the children of the Infantes) are regulated by the Royal Decree 1368/1987, so there is no ambiguity about them. The same is true for the styles of the queen consort, the husband of the reigning queen, the spouse of the heir presumptive, and spouses of infantes/infantas. By contrast, I don't know if there is any legal instrument regulating the style of members of the nobility, but the styles that I described above seem to be what is in use by tradition.
 
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EDIT: In reply to Tatiana Maria, the styles of the members of the Royal Family (the King, the Prince of Asturias, the Infantes, the children of the Prince of Asturias, and the children of the Infantes) are regulated by the Royal Decree 1368/1987, so there is no ambiguity about them. The same is true for the styles of the queen consort, the husband of the reigning queen, the spouse of the heir presumptive, and spouses of infantes/infantas. By contrast, I don't know if there is any legal instrument regulating the style of members of the nobility, but the styles that I described above seem to be what is in use by tradition.

I meant the traditions/laws in respect to the styles of children of Spanish HRHs who are not Infantes, and the styles of children of non-hereditary grandees, as the question was whether their children (including Luis Alfonso) are entitled to the style of Excelentísimo.

I don't know if HRH Alvaro de Orleans-Borbón (son of Infante Alfonso de Orleans y Borbón, grandson of Infanta Eulalia de Borbón, and great-grandson of Queen Isabel II) was a grandee, but he was a Spanish HRH who was not an Infante, and his children are called Excelentísimo Señor and Excelentísima Señora not only on the guestlist from the Prince of Asturias' wedding, but also in the Boletín Oficial del Estado, the gazette of Spanish laws.

http://www.casareal.es/ES/Documents/boda/info/InvitadosCatedral.pdf
http://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1996-14244
 
I don't think so. His father, the Duke of Anjou and Cadiz, was a Spanish HRH under Franco's 1972 decree. The royal decree of 1987 confirmed that title/style, but explicitly barred it from being transmitted to the Duke's offspring, including Luis Alfonso, who was never a Spanish HRH in his own right.




My interpretation is that D. Luis Alfonso is an Excelentísimo Señor though because his mother is a duchess and grandee of Spain and heirs to a grandeeship are entitled to the style of Excellency.

Well, not only his father, but his descendents, were Royal Highnesses by the 1972 decree, and were recognized as RH.
The Duke of Anjou's brother, François/Francisco was buried in Las Descalzas Reales as HRH.
This is why, the Duke of Anjou being already RH before the 1987 decree, should be treated accordingly (but not his wife or children).

As to renunciations, Spain is quite legalist following Castilla (while Aragon was prone to usurpations) and a dynast person can cease to be so, only by Royal decree PLUS vote of Las Cortes.
Las Cortes, culturally, tend to accept renunciations where there is really a marriage that is "notable y manifiestamente desigual" or other "very serious" motive, but are quite reluctant to accept any renunciation which may deprive a next of kin succession; both because in Spanish mind, close relation between a King and his successor are more important than elsewhere (to the point of preferring a second son to the children of a predeceased elder son, until the publication of the Ley de Partidas), and because in 1699, Spain would have been without close successor, had Infanta Maria Teresa's renunciation been voted when she married Louis XIV of France. Fortunately it had not been voted, and her grandson Philipp could reign.
I am speaking here only of succession law, not of right to titles. Titles, honours etc depend on the sole King's will and for instance, the Pragmática of Charles III deprives princes in case of unauthorized marriage, as well as marriage considered unequal, of their titles, honours etc unless stated otherwise. But the Pragmática is private/civil laws, non related to succession otherwise than by diminishing the political weight of a Royal reduced to mere nobility at the Court, which was the purpose of the Pragmática (a younger brother of Charles III being used by Court intrigues as a threat against him; when
this younger brother became mere Earl of Chinchón, while not excluded from succession, nobody at Court tried anymore to settle him as King instead of Charles III).
It seems clear that Alfonso XIII didn't wish to oust Infante Jaime (nearly deaf and mute) before the Prince of Asturias' unauthorized marriage with a plebeyan. He was supposed to remain a younger son, later uncle and excluding him was deemed unnecessary. But when, after Alfonso XIII's exile, his elder son did this marriage, he sent a renunciation, and Alfonso XIII managed to extort a renunciation from his second son Infante Jaime (later Henri VI in France), and later married him to the daughter of a Duke and a Princess of a formerly semi-sovereign house.
I have always felt that Alfonso XIII had no doubt as to his coming back to reign. He would have, then, asked the Cortes a validation of the renunciation of these two princes. Whether he would have succeeded to get such votes is unknown. Based on case law from XIXth Century, he may well have succeeded as to his elder son, Alfonso. I don't know if he would have succeeded with the second (based on his handicap) before the birth of this prince's first son, but I am quite sure he would not have succeeded after the birth of his sons, his handicaps becoming only a transient thing. By no way Infante Jaime may have been excluded on the only motive of his unequal marriage, there are various examples of Spanish Royals retaining their succession rights in spite of a marriage in the nobility — provided the marriage was authorized, and Infante Jaime's was.
But it happened that Alfonso XIII did not succeed in coming back to the throne. His elder son died childless before him, so his second son succeeded to his legitimate claims, not his third.
But present day monarchy is not the old one continued. It is a monarchy instituted in 1947 with Franco as head of State, this having to be succeeded by a King to be chosen among several princes. When Juan Carlos was chosen in 1969, this choice didn't imply any exclusion of other Royals, either in the traditional succession, or in the new monarchy.
 
Thank you very much Eya!
I am sorry I have missed to come back to the site to wish her a happy birthday, on such an important one as twelfth.
 
Well, not only his father, but his descendents, were Royal Highnesses by the 1972 decree, and were recognized as RH.
The Duke of Anjou's brother, François/Francisco was buried in Las Descalzas Reales as HRH.
This is why, the Duke of Anjou being already RH before the 1987 decree, should be treated accordingly (but not his wife or children).

As to renunciations, Spain is quite legalist following Castilla (while Aragon was prone to usurpations) and a dynast person can cease to be so, only by Royal decree PLUS vote of Las Cortes.
Las Cortes, culturally, tend to accept renunciations where there is really a marriage that is "notable y manifiestamente desigual" or other "very serious" motive, but are quite reluctant to accept any renunciation which may deprive a next of kin succession; both because in Spanish mind, close relation between a King and his successor are more important than elsewhere (to the point of preferring a second son to the children of a predeceased elder son, until the publication of the Ley de Partidas), and because in 1699, Spain would have been without close successor, had Infanta Maria Teresa's renunciation been voted when she married Louis XIV of France. Fortunately it had not been voted, and her grandson Philipp could reign.
I am speaking here only of succession law, not of right to titles. Titles, honours etc depend on the sole King's will and for instance, the Pragmática of Charles III deprives princes in case of unauthorized marriage, as well as marriage considered unequal, of their titles, honours etc unless stated otherwise. But the Pragmática is private/civil laws, non related to succession otherwise than by diminishing the political weight of a Royal reduced to mere nobility at the Court, which was the purpose of the Pragmática (a younger brother of Charles III being used by Court intrigues as a threat against him; when
this younger brother became mere Earl of Chinchón, while not excluded from succession, nobody at Court tried anymore to settle him as King instead of Charles III).
It seems clear that Alfonso XIII didn't wish to oust Infante Jaime (nearly deaf and mute) before the Prince of Asturias' unauthorized marriage with a plebeyan. He was supposed to remain a younger son, later uncle and excluding him was deemed unnecessary. But when, after Alfonso XIII's exile, his elder son did this marriage, he sent a renunciation, and Alfonso XIII managed to extort a renunciation from his second son Infante Jaime (later Henri VI in France), and later married him to the daughter of a Duke and a Princess of a formerly semi-sovereign house.
I have always felt that Alfonso XIII had no doubt as to his coming back to reign. He would have, then, asked the Cortes a validation of the renunciation of these two princes. Whether he would have succeeded to get such votes is unknown. Based on case law from XIXth Century, he may well have succeeded as to his elder son, Alfonso. I don't know if he would have succeeded with the second (based on his handicap) before the birth of this prince's first son, but I am quite sure he would not have succeeded after the birth of his sons, his handicaps becoming only a transient thing. By no way Infante Jaime may have been excluded on the only motive of his unequal marriage, there are various examples of Spanish Royals retaining their succession rights in spite of a marriage in the nobility — provided the marriage was authorized, and Infante Jaime's was.
But it happened that Alfonso XIII did not succeed in coming back to the throne. His elder son died childless before him, so his second son succeeded to his legitimate claims, not his third.
But present day monarchy is not the old one continued. It is a monarchy instituted in 1947 with Franco as head of State, this having to be succeeded by a King to be chosen among several princes. When Juan Carlos was chosen in 1969, this choice didn't imply any exclusion of other Royals, either in the traditional succession, or in the new monarchy.


In the case of the decree of 1987, the explanation I recall from Spanish royal watchers is that "recognized" in the 1987 decree was used in the sense of recognition by the heads of the royal family, so the Spanish Royal Family's understanding is that titles which had been unofficially recognized by Franco but were unrecognized by King Juan Carlos, including the HRH used by Luis Alfonso, expired (retroactively?) with the 1987 decree.

As to the various debates about succession questions (the renunciation of María Teresa, the Pragmática, and so forth), I've come across a variety of legal arguments, so I appreciate your setting out yours in such detail! :flowers:

It's worth mentioning that the present Spanish royal family considers itself a continuation of the old monarchy – the Constitution of 1978 refers to King Juan Carlos as "the legitimate heir of the historic dynasty".
 
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The Duchess of Anjou attended the 'Fundacion Querer' charity line launch in Madrid yesterday, March 21. During the launch she also spoke about the baby and why it was born in New York City:


** rex gallery ** hola article ** translation **
 
Louis Alfonso De Borbon take part at the World Congress of Families wich be held in Verona, Italy, 29-31 March .

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D25OmgGX4AAtqDV.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D25TzIZX4AAZuh1.jpg

The Dukes of Anjou, at the first pictures of their entire family after the birth of their fourth child, Enrique de Jesus, in February.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4BfI3JWAAAaqQS.jpg
https://estaticos.efe.com/efecom/re...l-P-2fU5U-P-2bMCGi0gREHiO16KaT3vueA-P-3d-P-3d

https://www.efe.com/efe/espana/gent...tografia-su-familia-al-completo/10007-3951482
 
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:previous: Enrique seems like a beautiful baby and the older children have grown up so much!
Is Enrique his official name or is that just what the Spanish media refers to him as? Wikipedia was referring to him as Henri throughout without the -de Jesus, so I was a little confused though I know Wikipedia isn't always the most reliable of sources.
 
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