King Louis XVI (1754-1793) and Queen Marie Antoinette (1755-1793)

[Dona Cayetana]

I do not profess to be an expert on Marie Antoinette, but read the Fraser biography last summer while in Paris, (the surroundings added to my motivation to read about this Queen). During the "Terror" nobility suffered greatly along with the Boubons. Reading about the imprisonment of the royal family was pitiful and quite sad, alas a fait suffered by royality repeatedly in history (recently in Nepal in the form of cold blooded murder). Josephine de Beauharnais (wife number 1 of Napoleon Bonaparte) was imprisoned during this time as well.

The Fraser biography treats the circumstances of Maria Antonia's life with a realistic and level hand. Considering court ettiquette in France, and the fact that the Dauphine/Queen was from an Imperial Family (Habsburgs, reinging longer than the Boubons) , she reached adulthood in the trappings of the French Court, away from her family and those close to her. Would it not be realistic for her to be quite aware of her position, or unwisely bestow favors until she got her footing?

Despite her frivolity, she may have been more intellegent than she has been credited for. However, the mid-late 18th century was a time full of intrigue, debauchery, and dissipation. One cannot overlook Casanova (d. 1798), or the Marquis de Sade (d. 1814) for their contributions in this arena.

Another film capturing the essence of the reign of Louis XVI is "Ridicule." French, released in the mid 1990s.

There is also a Gerald Diepardieu film called "Danton," worth watching for historical accuracy. A great portrayal of the terror, revolutionary machinery and Robespierre (guillotined in 1794, Marie Antoinette in 1793, and Danton in 1794).

[Margrethe II]

The brutality the royal family and their companions encountered during the revolution is quite gut wrenching...Marie Thérèse Louise de Savoie-Carignan, Princesse de Lamballe not only met her end by the guillotine's blade, but after her death her body was dismembered, her breats cut off & her genitalia mutilated & paraded at Marie Antoinette's window at the Temple..

"MII"

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by Margrethe II

The brutality the royal family and their companions encountered during the revolution is quite gut wrenching...Marie Thérèse Louise de Savoie-Carignan, Princesse de Lamballe not only met her end by the guillotine's blade, but after her death her body was dismembered, her breats cut off & her genitalia mutilated & paraded at Marie Antoinette's window at the Temple..

"MII"

That's one of the worst (imo) things that happened during he revolution. Princess de Lamballe was basically harmless, she only stayed in France (though had the chance to flee to England along with many other aristocrats) to be with her Queen and friend.
Another sad, I would say brutal, story concerns the women of Noailles, sister (22 years old), mother (the Duchess de’Ayen, 45 yeas old) and grandmother (89 years old) of Adrianne La Fayette, wife of Marquis de La Fayette. They were all executed, though they weren't even accused of anything. The only given reason was "prisons full to burst". Marquise de La Fayette escaped the prison only due to personal request of the American ambassador (he couldn't let it happen, given that Marquis de La Fayette was the hero of American revolution).

[semisquare]

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Marie Thérèse Louise de Savoie-Carignan, Princesse de Lamballe not only met her end by the guillotine's blade, but after her death her body was dismembered, her breats cut off & her genitalia mutilated & paraded at Marie Antoinette's window at the Temple..

i didnt know that, for the longest time i thought princesses do lamballe was kill by a mob which dismembered her body and then paraded though the street of paris.

[Margrethe II]

Originally Posted by semisquare

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i didnt know that, for the longest time i thought princesses do lamballe was kill by a mob which dismembered her body and then paraded though the street of paris.

It was (and is) also suggested that the princess was the victim of numerous accounts gang rape (the mob), however, these reports have been unsubstantiated in their claims thus far. Some say it is also questionable that she was even mutilated, but much of the critique says otherwise.

I believe that the Princess' entrails were shown to the Queen, not only as a sign of pure contempt & scorn towards the "Austrian Bitch", knowing the effection she held for Lambelle as a confidante & devoted friend, but, as a crude & unforgivable insult relating to the vicious rumours circulating France and much of Europe regarding the platonic nature of their relationship!

"MII"

[semisquare]

i feel so bad for marie antoinette, if only she was given the proper education i would like to think things would have been different for her and her family

[Margrethe II]

Marie Antoinette was a smart woman, contrary to what some have written. Her education was equal to her position, that of an 18th century Imperial Archduchess...remember, it was always assumed that Marie would one day be Queen Consort of France. She was groomed for that role since childhood & as a result possessed all the "right" qualities (definitly different to todays standards of education).

During the revolution, she became known as a woman of dignity & honour...even her foes stated that she had the courage and persona of a man (The Comte de Mirabeau for one).

She was an astute woman, just like her Maman. A woman who took in her surroundings and those who inhabited them with precise detail &
Imperceptible interest. She was however, a little naive at times as I am sure we all know.


What could have happend? Well, there's certainly no way of knowing that, but like you semisquare, I have thought once or twice about what things could have been like, had they survived the madness of France. :)



"MII"

[ysbel]

I majored in French and did a paper on Marie Antoinette for my last thesis.

The French were quite concerned with Maria Antonia's education in the year prior to her going to France. A court official wrote at the time that she was naturally intelligent but she was hampered by the fact that up to the age of 9 or so she had never been required to develop the discipline of study. Her French was in the opinion of the royal court not up to par and the first year she was in France she had forgotten so much of her German that she really had trouble communicating in any language.

Another sore spot for the French was her handwriting which was atrocious. They had seen the exercises she had done in Austria and saw a marvelous hand. It came out that her tutor had written the exercises in fine pencil and the young archduchess had merely traced over them in ink.

But her lack of education didn't hinder her so much as it was the lack of disclipine in her early years. In my opinion, even the lack of discipline could have been overcome if her husband had been able to consummate the marriage which he couldn't for several years.

Women around her were having families at that age and I think without the stabilizing influence of a growing family and normal marital relations, the young dauphine's inability to discipline herself put her and her reputation in danger.

She did gain an amazing strength and maturity after the King had the operation and she could have children but by then it was too late.

[RussianHistoryBuff]

Did Marie really shout, "let them eat cake"? I heard that that was just a historic bit of trickery. So, I am confused. Someone please tell me.

[margotantoinette]

No she didn't. This is a common historical fable, but nothing that actually took place. However, despite this episode having never occured, it is still indicative of the massive divide that existed between the monarchy and the people and how little Marie Antoinette actually knew about the lives of the people at the time. While it wasn't common or even expected that the royals would know about the conditions of the peasants, France at the time of the revolution had perhaps an even greater economic and social divide than many other countries in Europe combined with a King who was ill-prepared for being at the head of an absolute monarchy, and well, the conditions seem to have been inevitable.

[Furienna]

I for one also absolutely think, that both Louis and Marie would have been better off, if they had been allowed to wait some more years before they married. There have been some early marriages among royals, Scandinavian queen Margareth was no more than ten years old, when she was married, and her sucessor Philippa of England was no more than thirteen years old. But to force a marriage between a fifteen-year-old and a fourteen-year-old still sounds ridiculous. They could very well have waited four or five more years.

And also, the "Let them have cake!" quote is real, but it wasn't from Marie Antoinette, but from a 17th century princess, I have forgotten her name.

[Harry's polo shirt]

They don't seem to me, to have be very patient in those days. Everything then was NOW NOW NOW. They didn't care about others, just the monarchy.

[EmpressRouge]

Originally Posted by Furienna

I for one also absolutely think, that both Louis and Marie would have been better off, if they had been allowed to wait some more years before they married. There have been some early marriages among royals, Scandinavian queen Margareth was no more than ten years old, when she was married, and her sucessor Philippa of England was no more than thirteen years old. But to force a marriage between a fifteen-year-old and a fourteen-year-old still sounds ridiculous. They could very well have waited four or five more years.

And also, the "Let them have cake!" quote is real, but it wasn't from Marie Antoinette, but from a 17th century princess, I have forgotten her name.

It was Anne of Austria (Queen to Louis XIII) who said it.

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

It was Anne of Austria (Queen to Louis XIII) who said it.

I know she is thought to have said that, just as Marie Antoinette, but as long as I know it's not a fact, is it?
If she did say that, it must be during the days of Fronde.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by ysbel

I majored in French and did a paper on Marie Antoinette for my last thesis.

The French were quite concerned with Maria Antonia's education in the year prior to her going to France. A court official wrote at the time that she was naturally intelligent but she was hampered by the fact that up to the age of 9 or so she had never been required to develop the discipline of study. Her French was in the opinion of the royal court not up to par and the first year she was in France she had forgotten so much of her German that she really had trouble communicating in any language.

Another sore spot for the French was her handwriting which was atrocious. They had seen the exercises she had done in Austria and saw a marvelous hand. It came out that her tutor had written the exercises in fine pencil and the young archduchess had merely traced over them in ink.

But her lack of education didn't hinder her so much as it was the lack of disclipine in her early years. In my opinion, even the lack of discipline could have been overcome if her husband had been able to consummate the marriage which he couldn't for several years.

Women around her were having families at that age and I think without the stabilizing influence of a growing family and normal marital relations, the young dauphine's inability to discipline herself put her and her reputation in danger.

She did gain an amazing strength and maturity after the King had the operation and she could have children but by then it was too late.

That's interesting, Ysbel - I didn't know that. Did you only evaluate French sources or were there any Austrian accounts as well (I seem to remember that empress Maria Theresia was not overly happy with her little one's discipline as well...)?

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine

That's interesting, Ysbel - I didn't know that. Did you only evaluate French sources or were there any Austrian accounts as well (I seem to remember that empress Maria Theresia was not overly happy with her little one's discipline as well...)?

I have read about it in many sources, not only French. but the one I can remember right now is Victoria Holt's "The queen's Confession: The story of Marie-Antoinette", which can be trusted, because she used letters and memoirs, to produce this fictional 'autobiography' of the Queen.
Most notably, she used letters of Empress Marie Theresa to her daughter and the letters of the Austrian ambassador to Empress Marie Theresa.

[Furienna]

Originally Posted by Harry's polo shirt

They don't seem to me, to have be very patient in those days. Everything then was NOW NOW NOW. They didn't care about others, just the monarchy.

Excactly! It just seems like they wanted to get the wedding over with. I still think it would have been a good idea to let them wait a few more years. Our Swedish king Gustav III and his Danish wife queen Sophie Madeleine were always supposed to marry each other, but they were allowed to wait until they were twenty to actually marry, and that only happened a few years before Louis and Marie were pushed into marriage. Okay, Gustav and Sophie maybe didn't turn out to get a happy marriage anyway, but it still would have been the decent thing to do with Louis and Marie as well. Fourteen-fifteen-year-olds are not quite ready yet to get married.

[Furienna]

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

It was Anne of Austria (Queen to Louis XIII) who said it.

No, it wasn't a queen, that I was thinking of. I was more thinking of a princess born in France.