King Louis XVI (1754-1793) and Queen Marie Antoinette (1755-1793)

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by ysbel

That's a great book Avalon. Even though its fiction, a lot of it is based on fact. You may want to read Stefan Zweig's nonfiction biography as a comparison. He treats a lot of the same subjects as she does.

Holt also mentioned the earthquake in Lisbon Portugal the day that she was born. That definitely happened though one doesn't know whether its ominous nature was apparent to Marie Antoinette's destiny before her death.

I have read Stefan Zweig's buigraphy as well and I like it very much. Generally I prefer non-ficional biographies to the fictional ones, because you can never distinguish what's the truth and what's made up in the latter.

I have completely forgotten about the mention of the earthquake, thanks for reminding! Poor Holt must have spent many hours, searching for all possible misfortunes on the day!

[HRH Kerry]

I've read The Hidden Diary of Marie Antoinette. Yes, its fiction but based on actual facts and speculation. What made my skin crawl was how the book described the lost of her sister Josepha.

[Charlottesville]

It's sad that many of the stories of Marie Antoinette are still widely believed, such as the "Let them eat cake!" lie. She may not have been great, but she was forced out of her country at the tender age of 14, married, and then became a queen at 17. She hardly got out of the palace, and although ignorance is not bliss, she should not have been beheaded, nor should the poor Dauphin had been tortured as he had.

[Furienna]

The French revolution lead to the first ever left-wing dictatorship in the world. Just compare it to Russia and China in the 20th centrury. As someone else said in this thread, Marie Antoinette was the wrong person at the wrong place at the wrong time. Even if she didn't say "Let them have cake!", I guess she had little or no understanding for ordinary people and how they lived, and she appeared to be an oppressor.

[EmpressRouge]

I find many similarities between Marie Antoinette and Empress Alexandra, the last tsarina of Russia. Neither was a bad person but both were bad monarchs. Alexandra was a very pious woman who hated the loose morals and excess of the Russian court and perferred just spending time with her family. While M-A intially loved frivolity, she became a devoted to her family later in life. Both lacked the political acumen to navigate the turmoil their adopted countries were in and had indicisive husbands whom they believed to have divine right to rule. Both suffered for being from the enemy camp (Austrian and German) and became scapegoats.

[Charlottesville]

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

I find many similarities between Marie Antoinette and Empress Alexandra, the last tsarina of Russia. Neither was a bad person but both were bad monarchs. Alexandra was a very pious woman who hated the loose morals and excess of the Russian court and perferred just spending time with her family. While M-A intially loved frivolity, she became a devoted to her family later in life. Both lacked the political acumen to navigate the turmoil their adopted countries were in and had indicisive husbands whom they believed to have divine right to rule. Both suffered for being from the enemy camp (Austrian and German) and became scapegoats.

I certainly agree with that. Alexandra nor Marie really ever got out into the country, nor do I think they really realize how bad things really were for the peasent's in their country. However, I feel that Alix loved her husband more than Marie did her's, as it indeed was her choice to marry Nicholas.

[EmpressRouge]

Originally Posted by Charlottesville

I certainly agree with that. Alexandra nor Marie really ever got out into the country, nor do I think they really realize how bad things really were for the peasent's in their country. However, I feel that Alix loved her husband more than Marie did her's, as it indeed was her choice to marry Nicholas.

That is true. Nicholas and Alexandra's union was a love match (which some, such as his parents, disapproved) while M-A and Louis had an arranged marriage in which they had very different temperments. But M-A and Louis developed a strong bond forged by family and duty.

[Furienna]

I even believe Queen Victoria, Alexandra's maternal grandmother, disapproved of the match.

But yes, the similarities between the royal family of France and the imperial family of Russia are many. 1780's France was pretty much alike 1910's Russia. The ordinary people were much oppressed by the church and the aristocracy, and finally, starved desperate people, who still had to support the authorities, did anything to make a change. The monarchs and families were assasinated and the old aristocracy and the church lost its power in a left-wing dictatorship. The only difference is that France only lived in their horror wealth for some years, while Russia needed seventy years to get rid of the Soviet Union.

[victoria_89]

At wikipedia it says that Marie and Louis bodies were id and later buried , have they confirmed like by DNA that those are the actual bodies and do you know where they are buried ?

thanks

[Lillia]

I have a silly question; M-A was executed, was her husband executed before her? What happened to her children? Are there believed any descendants?

[EmpressRouge]

Originally Posted by Lillia

I have a silly question; M-A was executed, was her husband executed before her? What happened to her children? Are there believed any descendants?

Their elder son, Louis Joseph the Dauphin, and youngest child, Sophie both died before the revolution. Her younger son, the next Dauphin/titular Louis XVII died in prison after his mother. He (or at least his heart) was recently buried in royal fashion. Their eldest daughter, Marie-Therese, Madame Royale survived the revolution, lived in exile, and returned to France with the Bourbon Restoration. She married her cousin Louis-Antoine, Duke of Angouleme (son of Charles X, her father's brother). Some royalists considered him Louis XIX and Marie Therese Queen of France after the abdication of Charles X. The marriage was childless, thus Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI have no descendents.

[Warren]

A reminder there is a thread for Sofia Coppola's film, here.
I've moved recent posts discussing the film to the thread in the Royal Library sub-forum.

[betina]

Originally Posted by tiaraprin

Although this is Danish and not German, and I don't know German too well, it seems some of Marie Antoinette's jewelry was stolen on the night of June 13 in West London.

its not danish but dutch

[Next Star]

I wonder what happened to Marie-Antionette's children when her and husband were killed during the French revulation? And what were their names and if they ever survived and had their own children?

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by Next Star

I wonder what happened to Marie-Antionette's children when her and husband were killed during the French revulation? And what were their names and if they ever survived and had their own children?

Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI had four children: Marie-Therese, Louis-Joseph, Louis-Charles and Sophie Beatrix. Sophie-Beatrix and Louis-Joseph died before the Revolution.

Louis-Charles was imprisoned during the Revolution. After his father's execution, he was proclaimed King (Louis XVII) by the Royal Party and by vast majority of European countries.
He was kept in separate cell and is said to suffer occasional beatings as well as humiliations (he was referred as 'Capet', made to sing Marseillaise and curse his parents and the Monarchy). He died in 1795, in prison of tuberculosis. His body was buried in a mass grave but his heart was smuggled and preserved by the doctor, who carried out the autopsy.
There were many rumours that he had survived the Revolution. Many pretenders claimed to be 'Louis XVII of France' but the majority of the claims were proved to be false.

Marie-Therese survived the Revolution and was transferred to Vienna. Up until that point she was not aware of the fate of her family. She only knew her father was death but thought her mother was alive and brother is free.
Later Marie-Therese moved to Mittau, where her (paternal) uncle, Comte de Provence lived (he proclaimed himself Louis XVIII after the death of Louis XVII, Marie-Therese's brother). As the Comte didn't have male children, he arranged Marie-Therese's marriage with his nephew (and eventual heir) Louis-Antoine (eldest son of future Charles X). Though it was an arranged marriage, it was a happy one too (though it was childless).
After Napoleon's abdication in 1814, the Family returned to France.
In 1830, after uprising, led by Louis-Philippe (their cousin), Louis XVIII abdicated. For 20 minutes after her uncle’s abdication and before her husband, Louis-Antoine abdicated, Marie-Therese was the Queen of France.
Louis-Philippe’s plan worked and he became King (Louis-Philippe of France).

The Family lived in Edinburgh after the exile until 1833, when they moved to Prague. Marie-Therese's husband died in 1844. For the rest of her life she lived in Frohsdorf (a mansion outside Vienna). The Bourbon pretender to the throne, Comte de Chambord (the son of duc de Berry, younger son of Charles X, who was recognized as King Henry V of France and Navarre, the Legitimist Pretender to the throne) and a few other family members lived with her.
Marie-Therese died on October 19, 1851 and was buried in Kostanjevica (Slovenia), together with her husband, uncle (Charles X). Later Comte de Chambord was buried there as well.

[BillW65]

One minor correction, probably a typo...Louis XVIII died in 1824 and it was his brother, Charles X, that abdicated in 1830 in favor of Louis-Antoine.

[queenofcelts]

Thanks for the information. I was wondering about the fate of her eldest daughter.

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by BillW65

One minor correction, probably a typo...Louis XVIII died in 1824 and it was his brother, Charles X, that abdicated in 1830 in favor of Louis-Antoine.

Thank you BullW65 for the correction.
You are right, of course, it was Charles X, who abdicated in favour of Louis-Antoine.