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  #101  
Old 10-23-2006, 09:24 AM
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I find many similarities between Marie Antoinette and Empress Alexandra, the last tsarina of Russia. Neither was a bad person but both were bad monarchs. Alexandra was a very pious woman who hated the loose morals and excess of the Russian court and perferred just spending time with her family. While M-A intially loved frivolity, she became a devoted to her family later in life. Both lacked the political acumen to navigate the turmoil their adopted countries were in and had indicisive husbands whom they believed to have divine right to rule. Both suffered for being from the enemy camp (Austrian and German) and became scapegoats.
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  #102  
Old 10-24-2006, 02:31 PM
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I certainly agree with that. Alexandra nor Marie really ever got out into the country, nor do I think they really realize how bad things really were for the peasent's in their country. However, I feel that Alix loved her husband more than Marie did her's, as it indeed was her choice to marry Nicholas.
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  #103  
Old 10-24-2006, 05:21 PM
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That is true. Nicholas and Alexandra's union was a love match (which some, such as his parents, disapproved) while M-A and Louis had an arranged marriage in which they had very different temperments. But M-A and Louis developed a strong bond forged by family and duty.
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  #104  
Old 10-24-2006, 06:29 PM
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I even believe Queen Victoria, Alexandra's maternal grandmother, disapproved of the match.

But yes, the similarities between the royal family of France and the imperial family of Russia are many. 1780's France was pretty much alike 1910's Russia. The ordinary people were much oppressed by the church and the aristocracy, and finally, starved desperate people, who still had to support the authorities, did anything to make a change. The monarchs and families were assasinated and the old aristocracy and the church lost its power in a left-wing dictatorship. The only difference is that France only lived in their horror wealth for some years, while Russia needed seventy years to get rid of the Soviet Union.
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  #105  
Old 10-25-2006, 06:12 PM
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At wikipedia it says that Marie and Louis bodies were id and later buried , have they confirmed like by DNA that those are the actual bodies and do you know where they are buried ?

thanks
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  #106  
Old 10-25-2006, 09:10 PM
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I have a silly question; M-A was executed, was her husband executed before her? What happened to her children? Are there believed any descendants?
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  #107  
Old 10-25-2006, 11:47 PM
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Their elder son, Louis Joseph the Dauphin, and youngest child, Sophie both died before the revolution. Her younger son, the next Dauphin/titular Louis XVII died in prison after his mother. He (or at least his heart) was recently buried in royal fashion. Their eldest daughter, Marie-Therese, Madame Royale survived the revolution, lived in exile, and returned to France with the Bourbon Restoration. She married her cousin Louis-Antoine, Duke of Angouleme (son of Charles X, her father's brother). Some royalists considered him Louis XIX and Marie Therese Queen of France after the abdication of Charles X. The marriage was childless, thus Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI have no descendents.
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  #108  
Old 02-21-2007, 03:28 PM
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I wonder what happened to Marie-Antionette's children when her and husband were killed during the French revulation? And what were their names and if they ever survived and had their own children?
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  #109  
Old 02-21-2007, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Next Star
I wonder what happened to Marie-Antionette's children when her and husband were killed during the French revulation? And what were their names and if they ever survived and had their own children?

Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI had four children: Marie-Therese, Louis-Joseph, Louis-Charles and Sophie Beatrix. Sophie-Beatrix and Louis-Joseph died before the Revolution.

Louis-Charles was imprisoned during the Revolution. After his father's execution, he was proclaimed King (Louis XVII) by the Royal Party and by vast majority of European countries.
He was kept in separate cell and is said to suffer occasional beatings as well as humiliations (he was referred as 'Capet', made to sing Marseillaise and curse his parents and the Monarchy). He died in 1795, in prison of tuberculosis. His body was buried in a mass grave but his heart was smuggled and preserved by the doctor, who carried out the autopsy.
There were many rumours that he had survived the Revolution. Many pretenders claimed to be 'Louis XVII of France' but the majority of the claims were proved to be false.

Marie-Therese survived the Revolution and was transferred to Vienna. Up until that point she was not aware of the fate of her family. She only knew her father was death but thought her mother was alive and brother is free.
Later Marie-Therese moved to Mittau, where her (paternal) uncle, Comte de Provence lived (he proclaimed himself Louis XVIII after the death of Louis XVII, Marie-Therese's brother). As the Comte didn't have male children, he arranged Marie-Therese's marriage with his nephew (and eventual heir) Louis-Antoine (eldest son of future Charles X). Though it was an arranged marriage, it was a happy one too (though it was childless).
After Napoleon's abdication in 1814, the Family returned to France.
In 1830, after uprising, led by Louis-Philippe (their cousin), Louis XVIII abdicated. For 20 minutes after her uncle’s abdication and before her husband, Louis-Antoine abdicated, Marie-Therese was the Queen of France.
Louis-Philippe’s plan worked and he became King (Louis-Philippe of France).

The Family lived in Edinburgh after the exile until 1833, when they moved to Prague. Marie-Therese's husband died in 1844. For the rest of her life she lived in Frohsdorf (a mansion outside Vienna). The Bourbon pretender to the throne, Comte de Chambord (the son of duc de Berry, younger son of Charles X, who was recognized as King Henry V of France and Navarre, the Legitimist Pretender to the throne) and a few other family members lived with her.
Marie-Therese died on October 19, 1851 and was buried in Kostanjevica (Slovenia), together with her husband, uncle (Charles X). Later Comte de Chambord was buried there as well.
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  #110  
Old 07-19-2007, 08:37 AM
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One minor correction, probably a typo...Louis XVIII died in 1824 and it was his brother, Charles X, that abdicated in 1830 in favor of Louis-Antoine.
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  #111  
Old 07-19-2007, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by BillW65 View Post
One minor correction, probably a typo...Louis XVIII died in 1824 and it was his brother, Charles X, that abdicated in 1830 in favor of Louis-Antoine.
Thank you BullW65 for the correction.
You are right, of course, it was Charles X, who abdicated in favour of Louis-Antoine.
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  #112  
Old 09-13-2007, 02:11 PM
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i've had this site as one of my favorites for a while, and its the memoirs of marie antoinette by madame campan who i believe was one of her ladies - in -waiting.
Here's the link : Memoirs of Marie Antoinette - Chapter IV. (by Campan)

but i prefer this link : Memoirs of Marie Antoinette - Chapter III. (by Campan)

which is from the same site, but focuses more about her arrival at Versailles.
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  #113  
Old 09-13-2007, 08:36 PM
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Madame Campan became "instructor" for Napoléon' sisters, who were much unaware of étiquette, and to please her new lord, she was very hard with Marie-Antoinette in her memories. Her memories are, among written memories, the ones of the person closer to her, but are not so reliable for this reason (would she have kept loyal, her memories would have been suspicious for the opposite reason...)
Marie-Antoinette committed faults as a Dauphine and at the beginning of her reign. She refused her marital duties for 11 years, until her brother, who had become emperor, came unofficially and blame her, because she had written to her mother (who was far too intrusive, and was named "mater absoluta") that the non-consomption of marriage was due to a bad conformation of Louis XVI, while she was simply afraid of her straightness, and didn't do anything to resolve it. She refused to consider all serious questions in general. Of course, when she had children, she was a very tender, loving mother, as she was very kind (and, Furienna, the contact with the poor and helping them, was very natural to her, she was a very loving nature, very simple, she knew to find the right words...) but still considered badly her husband, that she judged poorly minded because she remained far from him and listened to her little court!
Later, during the Revolution, she understood her misjudgement, as her husband was very strong and wise and reliable, and she tried to interest herself to politics, but it was too late, it was no more time for formation.
I think she was conscious of her faults. Would another behaviour of her avoided Revolution? Not sure. Anyway, she felt very guilty and her husband put her at rest (cf his testament). Once jailed, she became litterally perfect!
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  #114  
Old 10-16-2007, 03:11 PM
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October 16th - beheading of Marie Antoinette

Today, October 16, 2007 is the anniversary date of Marie Antoinette's execution. 214 years ago, this dethroned "last Queen of France" was bound and carted to the scaffold, scorned by thousands of her former subjects and then beheaded in a public execution.

Thinking of Her and the awful fate she met on this date in 1793, I thought of the words of 19th c. English novelist Charles Dickens when he wrote of her execution in the Tale of Two Cities:

"Now, breaking the unnatural silence of a whole city, the executioner
showed the people the head of the king- and now, it seemed almost in
the same breath, the head of his fair wife which had had eight weary
months of imprisoned widowhood and misery, to turn it grey.

I quoted this passage and others from Dickens in three Oct. 16, 2007 posts to my yahoo MA group. In his elegant prose, Dickens, for me, well tells the incredible journey Marie Antoinette traveled from the pinnacle of European society to the tumbril and guillotine. LINK:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Images_of_Marie_Antoinette/

Axel
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  #115  
Old 01-16-2008, 12:27 AM
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To me, nothing is 100% accurate...It's like a million people standing in a line, and one person says something, and then passes it down, and by the time it get's to the last person in line, the message is completely different then from the beginning. There are probably a lot of other facts that we do not know about Marie Antoinette, enless it comes from the horses mouth, I do not say a thing.

Marie Antoinette was very giving. She did give food to the people in need, she did let peasants stay in the cottages that she had built, she did acknowledge that there were people who had way less then her, she did cut back on expenses as she got older, she did hide behind her palace walls, she did ignore the mobs and horrible pornographic pamphlets that were passed out everywhere about her and lesbian acts, she did have a love affair with the Count Axel Fersen (whom showed her real love), she was misunderstood (if she wasnt Austrian, things would've been much different), she was not the brightest of Queens in my opinion but something about her has us still talking about her today, was it her tragic death? Her up and down rollercoaster ride life? The fact that she was so hated by the French; how could someone be so hated? And so fast? I think a huge problem was the fact that she ignored her people. She did not pay attention to what they were wanting. You have to ask, you have to show concern, and she did neither. She sat inside of those palace walls, and ignored everything that was going on around her. A good Queen would've acknowledged it and took immediate action, even if it meant speaking to the people directly. She just thought that by dressing less extravagent, selling some of her gems, sending some food to the people would show them, but the truth is, most of the people had no idea that she had sold some of jewelry, the people didnt TRUTHFULLY know was going on, they just thought she was having parties, buying clothes, and building buildings (which she was, quite expesnive little whimsacale land with lambs and cottages)........The communication in my opinion would've helped somewhat. King Louis XVI even sat back, just going to bed eating bon bons with no care in the world, he just thought that people would still obey him, bow to him, because he would always be King and nothing would change. People thought it was just a phase, that it was just come and go.....However, about the French citizens themselves, that's just darn right crazy. There have been really bad times in a lot of countries, but you didnt see them killing their own people, and sticking their heads on pikes. I think the French against the French was bad enough.And then Marie and Louis trying to escape in a carriage that was fit for royalty? How would anyone possibly notice that carriage? I am not dogging them whatsoever, but their decisions were not the wisest. They did help the French though. Marie Antoinette did not commit treason, well she did but behind their back and no one knew about it, however they exploited that at her trial saying treason was her reason and then having several gentlemen get up and speak about the pornographic pamphlets; that had nothing to do with the trial. She did commit treason though, but no one knew about it except mostly her family in Austria, towards the end she wanted Austria to attack the French. Marie was very quiet during this trial, I think she had no more strength, her children were taken from her, her husband was killer, what else is there really to live for? Everyone wanted her dead, she a long ways from home, she had tried escaping, she had seen people murdered, she had been called every name in the book..She had no other defense at the time in trial. In my opinion THE french killed the king and the queen of their country, and that is sad sad. Death should not have been the answer. There are other alternatives........Their reasoning for wanting them dead were for the wrong reasons.
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  #116  
Old 02-07-2008, 11:32 PM
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really a tragedy, i agree with you!
but anyones knows why the aughter had never kids? did they make sure she wouldnt have decents?
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  #117  
Old 02-08-2008, 11:15 PM
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I often wondered that too. I mean I am sure her daughter was capable of having children, and to have descendents still alive in this time period would've been truly interesting. I wonder why they let the little girl go, and her youngest son?
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  #118  
Old 02-10-2008, 12:05 PM
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Marie-Therese was allowed to leave France for several reasons:

1) Women could not succeed to the Throne of France, so her existence was no threat fo anyone
2) The so called 'Reign of Terror', or the Robespierre era, was over. The French public and authorities wanted to distance themselves as much as possible from the pre-1793 times, and all the terrifying acts done at the time. Marie Therese's parents, her brother and aunt were all dead, there was no point in keeping her in prison and executing her would cause further outrage
3) The Austrian Emperor, and basically all European countries, demanded Marie-Therese's return. The was the last living child of King Louis XVI and Queen Marie Antoinette, and thus was a symbol for the Monarchiest movement.

It is likely that even if Marie Teresa could herself have children, her husband, Louis-Antoine couldn't.
If they did have children, I think they would be strong claimants fo the French Throne (in our times, that is), because even though Louis-Antoine did abdicate 20 minutes after becoming a King, any child of the only surviving child of Louis XVI & Marie Antoinette, and the heir of Louis XVIII would probably enjoy much more popularity and would have much stronger claims then any of the current pretenders.
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  #119  
Old 02-10-2008, 04:22 PM
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If the dukes of Angoulême had had a male descent, the elder of them would not be a "claimant", but simply de jure king of France.
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  #120  
Old 03-08-2008, 10:21 AM
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Staues of King Louis XVI and Queen Marie Antoinette,Basilique St.Denis.
http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-co...stdenis/71.JPG
Courtesy dear Marianne van Dam/Mardam.
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