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  #241  
Old 06-05-2012, 09:15 PM
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I have a question about Louis XVI and Marie A: How come there have never been any stories about miraculous escapes of the Dauphin like there have been about Tsarevich Alexis?
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  #242  
Old 06-05-2012, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexey 1904 View Post
I have a question about Louis XVI and Marie A: How come there have never been any stories about miraculous escapes of the Dauphin like there have been about Tsarevich Alexis?
Maybe there have been. It's an interesting topic, I'm reading about him right now. One difference between the two and something that could be a reason is that he died of natural causes rather than being murdered.

Edited to add: I guess Louis XVI had two sons who died as dauphins. If you read about the second one(I know wiki isn't the best source in the world), it says there were rumors of his escape soon after his death. There is a list of claimants as well. In 2000 DNA testing done on the remains of his heart proved that the second dauphin died in prison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XVII_of_France
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  #243  
Old 06-06-2012, 12:34 PM
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It sounds very confusing. Two dauphins? I guess I don't know much about either one. Do people know for sure the first one died of natual causes? I guess I'll have to read about it in wikipedia.
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  #244  
Old 06-10-2012, 01:00 PM
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What's confusing? One dauphin died so the younger son became the new dauphin.
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  #245  
Old 06-10-2012, 05:25 PM
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No No Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette had two children : the Duchesse d’ Angoulème and the future Louis XVII who died young.
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  #246  
Old 06-10-2012, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
No No Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette had two children : the Duchesse d’ Angoulème and the future Louis XVII who died young.
They had 4.

I'm having a tough time cutting and pasting the info but obviously it's available online.

Edited to add the list.

-Marie Thérèse Charlotte (1778-1851)
-Louis Joseph Xavier François (1781-1789), this is the first dauphin
-Louis-Charles , the second dauphin and also called Louis XVII (1785-1795)
-Marie Sophie Hélène Béatrice (1786-1787)

The second daughter, who died in infancy, had the same first name as the older daughter but was called Sophie.
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  #247  
Old 09-12-2012, 01:07 PM
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I'm going to be blunt here, I don't find Marie Antoinette all that interesting. The films and books that focus on Louis XVI and the process of revolution are way more interesting to me than the films and books of herself. It seems the books about her seem ot keep trying to find something interesting to talk about her, be the possible affair with a dashing Swedish aristocrat (which I very much doubt it ever took place) or by putting her as a "fish out of water" in the etiquette of French court, the intrigues against her, etc.

Prior to revolution, I don't think MA suffered more or less than other Queens before her. She lived her life in frivolity and extravangancy, that's a fact. She did some charity work, but that was expected from Queens in Europe. By the way, her predecessor, Queen Marie Leczinska, seemed to have done a way better work than her in that (by the way, she was called "The Polac" by courtiers). She live off from the people of France in the Petit Trianon, with her parties there, or "playing peasant" in that cottage made for her in the palace grounds.

I don't understand this fascination about her. I understand Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette killings as a symbolic meaning, the end of the divine rights of kings, the end of the respect of people for these institutions, the end of a way of though, the end of a politic system. Not that I agree with the killings, by the way.

However, she became a Romantic Heroine of late (just like Madame de Pompadour, who deserves even less that title). People like to romantize because this is a young girl, married because of politics with what people regard as a fat, not-social king, not sexually satisfied, lives a life in frivolities until she meets the "love" of her life in the form a womanizer douchebag (but, hey, he is handsome) , until meeting her tragic end. Ok. Nice story, but she is not interesting then. The most interesting part of her life is after the revolution, when she apparently took reins of the government because Louis XVI seemed to be suffering with some form of depression. Or when she took the worst decision of her life and she and had her family and her husband to escape France. Or when she was imprisioned (thinking again the imprisioned time is also very discussed, it was then when she became a "martyr)". But that aspects of her life, such as when she takes the government, are the less focused in her biographies. People don't seem to like it. They keep talking how vilanized she was, how she suffered, etc. However nowadays she is almost ridiculously canonized, the martyr Queen etc.

People also say Louis XVI "inherited" the economic issues and the bad publicity from his grandfather, Louis XV. Well, he did, part of it. However Louis XV was in the right path by the time he died. He dissolved the Parlament of Paris (a judicial branch which kept in the way of important reforms, such as the dissolution of some privileges in the nobility), managed to tax the nobility, the economy was recovering, but when Louis XVI came to the throne one of the first things he did was to undo all that reforms. He was regarded as a virtuous king, and because of that he was very popular with people for many years. If he didn't use that. He had the chance to restore the prestige to monarchy, but didn't do that. He was very indecisive. He would have been a good scientist, but not a king.
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  #248  
Old 11-02-2012, 09:28 PM
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On the escape issue, a group of french royalists did in fact onstruct a settlement in northeastern Prnnsylvania where they planned for marie A the King and any/all of their children to flee to. Its called French Azilum and its about 20 miles from where i live!!!
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  #249  
Old 12-31-2012, 06:15 PM
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I'd never heard of it but I'm just reading up on it now after seeing your post.

French Azilum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Azilum
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  #250  
Old 12-31-2012, 11:05 PM
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Louis XVI blood mystery 'solved' - Telegraph
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Scientists believe they have solved the mystery of a rag said to be dipped in the blood of Louis XVI of France after more than two centuries.
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  #251  
Old 04-02-2013, 11:18 AM
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Royal Anniversary: March 27th 1785,Birth of Louis-Charles, Dauphin of France

Son of the doomed Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette of Austria.

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  #252  
Old 05-19-2014, 09:25 PM
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I take the excuses for bad queens being married young with a grain of salt. Many queens throughout history have married young and sent to foreign countries. Queen Anne was Marie's age and didn't have children for a longer time than MA.
The situation in France was horrible and had been building into an explosion for years. Louis and Marie were the wrong people to fix anything, instead they made it worse. Did they deserve to die? IDk, I understand why a new republic would feel they had to obliterate the old system to survive, Louis was a symbol of that system. Plus Marie especially worked against the revolution and to stop it and put her and Louis back in power. It seems behind every indecisive man ruling through a revolution, there is a woman behind him encouraging him to not accept the changes that are going on.
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  #253  
Old 06-30-2014, 01:15 AM
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I am reading the memoirs of Mme Campan via the on-line Project Gutenberg. It's a tragic story. What the royal family experienced at the end is hard reading. I wish they'd been able to escape to England but I don't think it was possible for them to leave France. Psychologically they couldn't have made that transition - or maybe that's me - they really are the Ancien Régime in every sense.

I've always been mesmerized by the whole strangeness of that time: The Terror. Very, very sad.

LINK: Memoirs of the Court of Marie Antoinette, Queen of France, Complete by Mme Campan - Free Ebook
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  #254  
Old 07-12-2014, 12:33 PM
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I've never seen this portrait of Marie Antoinette and the Abbé Girard on her way to the guillotine.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/c89c055f4...5tzzo1_500.jpg
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  #255  
Old 07-12-2014, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I've never seen this portrait of Marie Antoinette and the Abbé Girard on her way to the guillotine.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/c89c055f4...5tzzo1_500.jpg
Where does it come of? What is it's provenance?

Harrowing ordeal - only 38 years old. A very realistic portrait, it seems to me, given her more realistic portraits.

LINK: http://www.habsburger.net/en/persons...rie-antoinette
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  #256  
Old 07-15-2014, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Linda_Danvers View Post
I'm going to be blunt here, I don't find Marie Antoinette all that interesting. The films and books that focus on Louis XVI and the process of revolution are way more interesting to me than the films and books of herself. It seems the books about her seem ot keep trying to find something interesting to talk about her, be the possible affair with a dashing Swedish aristocrat (which I very much doubt it ever took place) or by putting her as a "fish out of water" in the etiquette of French court, the intrigues against her, etc.

Prior to revolution, I don't think MA suffered more or less than other Queens before her. She lived her life in frivolity and extravangancy, that's a fact. She did some charity work, but that was expected from Queens in Europe. By the way, her predecessor, Queen Marie Leczinska, seemed to have done a way better work than her in that (by the way, she was called "The Polac" by courtiers). She live off from the people of France in the Petit Trianon, with her parties there, or "playing peasant" in that cottage made for her in the palace grounds.

I don't understand this fascination about her. I understand Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette killings as a symbolic meaning, the end of the divine rights of kings, the end of the respect of people for these institutions, the end of a way of though, the end of a politic system. Not that I agree with the killings, by the way.

However, she became a Romantic Heroine of late (just like Madame de Pompadour, who deserves even less that title). People like to romantize because this is a young girl, married because of politics with what people regard as a fat, not-social king, not sexually satisfied, lives a life in frivolities until she meets the "love" of her life in the form a womanizer douchebag (but, hey, he is handsome) , until meeting her tragic end. Ok. Nice story, but she is not interesting then. The most interesting part of her life is after the revolution, when she apparently took reins of the government because Louis XVI seemed to be suffering with some form of depression. Or when she took the worst decision of her life and she and had her family and her husband to escape France. Or when she was imprisioned (thinking again the imprisioned time is also very discussed, it was then when she became a "martyr)". But that aspects of her life, such as when she takes the government, are the less focused in her biographies. People don't seem to like it. They keep talking how vilanized she was, how she suffered, etc. However nowadays she is almost ridiculously canonized, the martyr Queen etc.

People also say Louis XVI "inherited" the economic issues and the bad publicity from his grandfather, Louis XV. Well, he did, part of it. However Louis XV was in the right path by the time he died. He dissolved the Parlament of Paris (a judicial branch which kept in the way of important reforms, such as the dissolution of some privileges in the nobility), managed to tax the nobility, the economy was recovering, but when Louis XVI came to the throne one of the first things he did was to undo all that reforms. He was regarded as a virtuous king, and because of that he was very popular with people for many years. If he didn't use that. He had the chance to restore the prestige to monarchy, but didn't do that. He was very indecisive. He would have been a good scientist, but not a king.
Thing is, that Marie Antoinette failed as Queen because she shirked her responsibilities to maintain good relations with the people and aristocracy.

Leaving her country to be a bride in an arranged marriage was expected and thing is, she wasn't a stranger to the idea. I'm tired of people saying how hard she had it, she in fact had it every easy from a very young age. She just didn't want to do her part, which is act like an adult and do her job, a job she was trained to do at a young age. She wasn't a stranger to life in a palace, or to court politics.

Louis XVI wasn't effective, but he inherited something that was unprecedented in France. He wasn't an effective ruler, but he wasn't trained the way he should have been and second, his wife should have been doing her part to prop him up, not granting lucrative posts to her friends and pressuring him to accept them. He was a weak man, but his wife didn't make it a point to show him any respect.
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