King Louis XVI (1754-1793) and Marie Antoinette of Austria (1755-1793)

[silverstar]

quote
I agree. If you read a book on Madame Deficit (lol!), from the beginning to the end it was almost like two different people. My favorite book on her was written by Evelyn Lever (a great biographer!), the title escapes me but it was something along the lines of "Marie Antoinette."
end quote

hmm that figures,
could it be...Marie Antoinette: The Last Queen Of France by Evelyn Lever

[silverstar]

There seems to have been some strange lethargy that
came over the ruling powers in France.. and more particularly Paris.
Was this lethargy there long before Marie arrived ? Louis 15ths reign had been long and he was unpopular, the finances of France were in a bad way... the aristocracy were decadent and out of touch.

There seemed to be no strong authority ruling that vast city... militarily I mean.
A violent mob stormed a Paris arsenal and seized 1000s of weapons.... but they had no gunpowder.
That was why they made there way to the Bastille because it was known to house and store a vast amount of gunpowder.

A similar mob in London would soon have been sorted out by By Britains strong and well organized military, but in Paris, there was no willpower to stand down the mob.
The mob had their way, the Bastille was stormed ... and the rest is history !

[Grace Angel]

Originally Posted by silverstar

...her dull, imbercile husband....

He was naive, but he actually was an intelligent man, not an imbecile. Certainly, he had no leadership skills. At least MA realized in the end her mistakes, it seems. Alexandra of Russia never did.

[Princess Margaret]

Originally Posted by Grace Angel

At least MA realized in the end her mistakes, it seems. Alexandra of Russia never did.

Did she had any? I doubt so. She was mostly focused on her family life and her poor son. The russians hated her only because she was German and cosidered her as a German spy.

[monica17]

As early as one year after being Queen, there were already signs that Marie Antoinette was losing her popularity. I've recently read that she went to a horse race in 1775 and instead of cheers, sullen silence greeted her...... Count Mercy wrote Vienna that the public saw a Queen who was only interested in entertaining herself. We can be certain that her mother and/or brother Joseph wrote her about it but as (almost) always, she disregarded their warnings. IMHO, the main problem with Marie Antoinette was that she did not bother to conciliate with the masses nor with the nobles. Her unsatisfactory marriage (at least in the first 7 years) and the oppressing etiquette at Versailles were part of the problem, yes, and contributed to her frivolousness and her spending. But we have to admit that she was also very stubborn and insisted on doing things her own way and not caring very much about the world outside of Versailles and the Petit Trianon, which proved to be disastrous for her politically and personally. While she gave to charity, I don't think any sums that she gave were of any consequence....compared to what she spent, that is.

I'm not sure she really saw her mistakes either..... can anyone cite any proof(s) that she did? I do deeply admire how she behaved in her last years though....with courage and faith. In the end, she was the best that she could be. It's just sad it was all too late for her......

[claypoint2]

Originally Posted by Princess Margaret

Did she had any? I doubt so. She was mostly focused on her family life and her poor son. The russians hated her only because she was German and cosidered her as a German spy.

Alexandra of Russia was in such despair about her son's illness that she became deeply involved with Rasputin, who was a faith healer of sorts. Through her influence and intervention, he gained tremendous power in the Russian court and in the political life of the country. This was not a good thing, and many people rightly resented and blamed Alexandra for this.

Also, Alexandra's character -- introverted, detached, sullen -- did not make her popular with other people beyond her close family circle. In sum, I would disagree with your statement that "the Russians hated her only because she was German and considered her as a German spy." There were several reasons that she was not well liked, and she certainly made politically significant mistakes. Unlike Marie Antoinette, Alexandra seems to have remained blind to her errors in judgment 'til the very end.

[rosemilk]

I've been reading this thread with interest, especially the comparisons between Alix/Tsarina Alexandra and Marie Antoinette, which made me wonder, is there any way that they are related?

[silverstar]

It is obvious that in the French Revolution Queen Marie Antoinette became a hate figure
for the mobs of Paris........ she was villified in countless pamphlets that circulated the city
she was depicted in all kinds of pornographic cartoons too....

Secret presses were endlessly printing this material... the King at Versailles was almost powerless to stop it.

The result is that Marie Antoinette became a hate figure... her wealth and extravagence seen in stark
contrast to the Paris poor and their hunger in the bread shortages and the high price of bread.
Its almost as if sinister , dark forces behind the French Revolution used Marie Antoinette almost as a catalyst for the Revolution.

Tsarina Alexandra was the Russian equivalent of Marie Antoinette.... I'm wondering if she became a hate
figure in a similar way ? were the same dark, sinister forces at work here too and once again using
a female hate figure to incite the mobs to violent action ?

go here
Celebheaven • View topic - Tsarina Alexandra.... Empress of all the Russias

[Duchessmary]

Yes. Alix of Russia was called "That German Woman" and was accused of sleeping with Rasputin, and drugging the Tsar.

[Furienna]

Yikes, you're right! Nikolai and Alix was so Louis and MA all over again.

[redrose_2121]

I am soooo surprised not to find a thread devoted solely to Marie Antoinette! If anyone would like to discuss anything at all about her, I would be more than thrilled! She is a very intriguing character.

[redrose_2121]

sorry about the above quote. I don't know how it got in here, or how i misses this thread before. My apologies.

[silverstar]

with regards to Marie Antoinette, redrose,
you might find this lady very interesting
go here
Celebheaven • View topic - Mme Campan

[silverstar]

quote
I am soooo surprised not to find a thread devoted solely to Marie Antoinette!
end quote...
this is basically the Marie Antoinette thread

[redrose_2121]

Has anyone read Madam Campan's memoirs on Marie Antoinette? I have and thought they were very revealing. What did everyone else think? Also, @rosemilk, Marie Antoinette and Tsarina Alexandra were indeed distantly related. I forget exactly how, but I will try to find it for you.
@silverstar: yes, I realize that now. I didn't mean to post it in this thread, as I didn't realize that this thread existed until today. I don't know how I missed it! Sorry about that.
:)

[monica17]

I've read that Madame Campan's memoirs are not totally reliable. She omitted many things (I think there was no mention at all of Count Fersen, strange.....) and many think she deliberately made the memoirs more positive so as to court the favour of the Bourbons, who were restored to the throne of France (they were displeased with her associating with Napoleon). I think Stefan Zweig and Antonia Fraser also disputed some of Madame Campan's accounts. So as far as accuracy is concerned, I don't think it would rank way up high in terms of reliability/ balanced view on Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI.

[silverstar]

Married at age 14 in 1770...
Marie became the new Dauphine of France.
She must have been a novelty at the French court... and everyones favourite.... certainly beloved by the King... King Louis 15 .
With her love of music... singing... playing the harpsichord.... she must have been quite charming


If only King Louis 15 had lived for another 10 years, it might have given Marie and the Dauphin
time to mature and be ready to take on the high office of King and Queen of France.


Marie, shortly after her marriage in 1770






.

[LouisXVI]

King Louis XVI was NOT an imbecile!!! Louis XV of france kept his heir Louis-Ferdinand de France,away from the happenings of running a country and did a piss poor job of it. The people hated him after living such a happier time with Louis XIV. Louis-Ferdinand de Francedied when Louis XVI was 12 and was left to be instructed by none other then Louis XV. So he had No instruction and was made king when he was still a young man.

So having next to no knowledge of how to run a country.

Left with Louis XV impression of austrians stemming from HIS fathers views.

Louis XVI was married to an austrian who he thought was enemy, one cannot place judgement on this mans intelligence due to lack of education.

Blame the system, NOT the person who was created from it.

im·be·cile
n. 1. A stupid or silly person; a dolt.
2. A person whose mental acumen is well below par.
3. A person of moderate to severe mental retardation having a mental age of from three to seven years and generally being capable of some degree of communication and performance of simple tasks under supervision. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive.

Louis XVI was none of this and was a real person.

[MAfan]

Originally Posted by LouisXVI

The people hated him after living such a happier time with Louis XIV.

As far as I know, people really hated Louis XIV, and even tried to hold his funeral cortege up on the way from Versailles to Paris.

Luois died when Louis XVI was 12 and was left to be instructed by none other then Louis XV. So he had No instruction and was made king when he was still a young man.

I'm sorry, but there are too many Louis in this phrase for my taste...Who is the Louis died when L. XVI was 12?

[LouisXVI]

Originally Posted by MAfan

As far as I know, people really hated Louis XIV, and even tried to hold his funeral cortege up on the way from Versailles to Paris.

His country had wealth when he was king. I'm talking more or ruling types then actual persons.

Originally Posted by MAfan

I'm sorry, but there are too many Louis in this phrase for my taste...Who is the Louis died when L. XVI was 12?

Louis-Ferdinand de France, his father.