The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Non-Reigning Houses > Royal Families of France

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #181  
Old 05-23-2009, 03:38 PM
Grace Angel's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa, United States
Posts: 462
I feel sorry for them in the sense that MA was so young and naive when she first came to the French court, and she hurt her reputation unknowingly by her frovolity, but later she matured. She was in the spotlight from such a young age though, and wasn't prepared. Louis XVI was a well meaning man, but events overtook him when he called the estates general to convene, so in that sense I feel sorry for him. He tried, but failed. I think think they didn't deserve their deaths, although revolution in France was inevitable.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #182  
Old 05-23-2009, 09:09 PM
Furienna's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 1,194
That's right. They could have made some changes, without killing the king and the queen and a lot of other people.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old 05-27-2009, 07:09 PM
iowabelle's Avatar
Royal Highness
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Des Moines, United States
Posts: 2,405
The French nation couldn't make changes without divesting the classes which had monopolized power. The aristocrats and the Catholic Church weren't interested in making changes which lessened their wealth and political power.

Perhaps a violent upheaval was inevitable. Very few European countries escaped a feudal system of government without bloodshed. (For example, England endured its Civil War and the Interregnum.)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #184  
Old 05-27-2009, 07:52 PM
Furienna's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 1,194
While the revolution was inevitable, I still think it could have been handled better, without so many deaths. And over here in Sweden, we never had a revolution like that. We changed our society slowly and calmly instead.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old 06-15-2009, 03:18 PM
Grace Angel's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa, United States
Posts: 462
Certainly, Madame Pompadour was right when she is said to have remarked " After us, the deluge". MA and Louis XVI got that. Indeed, the aristocracy- upper classes etc didn't want to make changes. So those lower than them rebelled in a very brutal way. It wasn't very surprising, but it could have been done in a more civilized way, certainly. MA and Louis XVI inheirited the legacies of those before them, which led to the French Revolution, so they certainly weren't responsible for the Revolution, in that sense, even though they were on the throne at the time.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #186  
Old 07-02-2009, 03:56 AM
monica17's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Little Baguio, Philippines
Posts: 820
It's true that France was in sorry situation before Louis XVI became king. Nevertheless, we must remember that Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were king and queen for 15 years - long enough to try and fix some of the country's pressing problems -- before the 1789 came ...they could've done something effective to mitigate the effects of the revolution to the monarchy and the state. Sadly, both were not alert and seemed to be just drifting. Maria Theresa and Joseph II certainly foresaw that a revolution would take place and warned MA more than enough in their correspondence. We know that MA disregarded all that until it was too late.....and Louis XVI was quite hopeless as monarch, and especially one at such a crucial time in France. If they were more effective, it's likely that the revolution did not end up as it did.
__________________
Monica17

Kindness is the magic elixir of love - The Practice of Kindness
Reply With Quote
  #187  
Old 07-14-2009, 05:37 PM
Grace Angel's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa, United States
Posts: 462
I think they were both too young at the time they came to the throne and had the wrong characters, but also, the main thing was the first two estates, that of clergy and nobility wouldn't surrender any of their traditional rights. Louis XVI called the Estates General to convene, but couldn't do much. I suppose you could say he called them together too late, since by that time it was already a crisis.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #188  
Old 07-14-2009, 07:14 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: bath, United Kingdom
Posts: 172
I read that during their long house arrest... I mean
Palace arrest.... one of the books King Louis read was
the life of King Charles 1st... who of course.. famously went
to the block and had his head chopped off.

Not exactly ideal bedtime reading for the forlorn King of France....
... I wonder if he had nightmares ?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #189  
Old 07-14-2009, 09:58 PM
monica17's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Little Baguio, Philippines
Posts: 820
I agree that both Louis XVI and MA were young when they became King and Queen of France. But I suppose one can learn along the way.....the other Bourbon-Habsburg pairs were also young and likewise inexperienced. While their states were smaller and definitely much less important than France, King Ferdinand and Queen Caroline of Naples & Sicily as well as Duke Ferdinand and Duchess Amalia of Parma also faced a multitude of problems in their reign but at least managed to hold on to their thrones until the French invasion of Italy. Count Mercy, while of course being pro-Austrian, can be counted for being honest and accurate in his assessments and in one of his letters to Vienna, he wrote that the regime of Louis XVI and MA were even more wasteful and inept than Louis XV's. And that a revolution is not far from happening. So while I like both, I cannot wholly excuse them and blame more the clergy and nobility for refusing to cooperate.... they could've fixed at least the wastefulness and ineptitude. I agree that they acted too late.

I think Louis XVI saw himself as sharing the same fate as Charles I of England.
__________________
Monica17

Kindness is the magic elixir of love - The Practice of Kindness
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old 07-21-2009, 03:38 PM
Grace Angel's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa, United States
Posts: 462
Certainly, the French royal family/ nobility/ clergy towards the end could be called wasteful and inept.MA was frivolous at first. But, there were centuries of tradition with wastefulness and ineptness behind them, and MA and Louis XVI had the wrong characters for the sitiuation coming to a crisis just then.It was a combination of both factors that in my opinion led to the French Revolution, but MA and Lous XVI weren't the main cause.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #191  
Old 07-21-2009, 04:24 PM
Furienna's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 1,194
No, they were only partially responsible.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old 07-22-2009, 01:50 PM
Grace Angel's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Iowa, United States
Posts: 462
Very true. Charles I was a figure that Louis XVI related to, as mentioned. Louis XVI and MA also became figures that other doomed rulers came to relate to eventually, for example Alexandra, the last Empress consort of Russia related strongly to MA.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #193  
Old 07-22-2009, 02:00 PM
Furienna's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 1,194
I really understand that.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old 07-23-2009, 10:40 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ..., Canada
Posts: 51
(Don't know if this information has been posted yet)
Before the Varennes incident (when the family [MA, Louis XVI, Madame Élisabeth, Louis-Charles, Marie-Thérčse, Madame de Tourzel & co.] tried to escape unsuccessfully) there were no plans to kill them. They made a faux-pas and this incident greatly insulted French people and their situation quickly deteriorate after being sent back to Paris.

I'll add that this is quite funny that in their escape the King (intendant to Mme de Korff), the Queen (nanny to Mme de Korff's children) and Madame Élisabeth (lady-in-waiting) took the roles of "domestics" to Madame de Tourzel, who herself took the identity of the baronne de Korff.
Louise-Élisabeth de Croy de Tourzel was actually the governess (gouvernante des Enfants de France) of Mme Royale and Louis (XVII).
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 07-23-2009, 10:45 AM
Furienna's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 1,194
But even so, I don't think they deserved to be executed.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #196  
Old 07-23-2009, 11:00 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ..., Canada
Posts: 51
I don't think either. I think revolutionaries just wanted to get rid of the Ancien Régime so that there would be no chance of restoration. I think killing so many nobles and opponents was a way for them to prove themselves to the other nations and to frighten people.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old 07-23-2009, 11:11 AM
Furienna's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 1,194
Yes, you're probably right.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old 07-24-2009, 12:00 AM
monica17's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Little Baguio, Philippines
Posts: 820
I also do not think they deserved to be executed although I will not deny that they were part of the problem.

I've read varied sources on Marie Antoinette and it appears that she was frivolous from 1770 until 1787 -- 17 years! For example, the Prussian ambassador (Baron Goltz ???, I think) wrote in 1787 to Berlin that "the Queen had quit her frivolous Private Society and now attends to state matters but as she doesn't have a systematic mind, she goes from caprice to caprice..." She definitely knew she was unpopular before this (at least 1782 onwards but pamphlets started in the 1770s so even much earlier than that), but instead of perhaps contemplating why she was so hated by the people and trying to conciliate, she did not do anything at all until the disastrous Diamond Necklace Affair when it was too late. She also made the huge mistake of alienating both the nobility and the masses so she had no support from either. Aside from that, she interfered in court appointments/promotions, making sure that people who were her favorites (but inept) got lucrative posts/titles so the people blamed her for France's mounting problems. I can see the connection there from the viewpoint of the people, even if France's problems started way back. If things were already problematic, why add to the problems by appointing people who were inept, etc.? Not to mention such posts/titles, some of which were new, cost quite a sum when they should be economizing..-- she even insisted on the purchase of the Chateau Saint-Cloud in the midst of a looming financial crisis. I am sorry, I like her a lot (and I don't think she or her husband deserved to be executed) but I cannot also excuse some of her choices. Maria Theresa and Joseph both warned her on her extravagance and court appointments. Count Mercy also said that such interference by MA on court appointments was no good and she herself recognized that what she was doing was no good but she would rather please her friends..... While Louis XVI and MA were not responsible for all of France's problems, the people were looking for them to solve or at least manage the state problems, not make things worse by wastefulness and ineptitude among other disorders. Both certainly did through their choices.

The berlin used in the family's escape was very conspicuous and cumbersome. That alone tells a lot about how Louis XVI and MA were out of touch from reality and IMHO, very poor judgment on their part. Louis XVI's brother Comte de Provence and his spouse had the good sense to escape in a common carriage and a single attendant each. I do not like this couple at all but in that instance, they exhibited good judgment.
__________________
Monica17

Kindness is the magic elixir of love - The Practice of Kindness
Reply With Quote
  #199  
Old 09-12-2009, 04:17 PM
Princess Margaret's Avatar
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Lyon, France
Posts: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace Angel View Post
for example Alexandra, the last Empress consort of Russia related strongly to MA.
She even had a portrait of MA at her room in Alexandrovsky palace in Zarskoe Selo!
And to compare the everyday notes in the personal diaries of Louis XVI and Nicky - both king's looks at the life itself are so similar!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #200  
Old 09-12-2009, 06:54 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: bath, United Kingdom
Posts: 172
Yes , she was frivolous and fun loving... attending balls
(usu without her dull husband ) attending lavish banquets... gambling heavily... she was doing all of these
things, but then she was in a marriage that was unconsumated.
... She was sexually frustrated, she was also frustrated by the suffocating protocol fo Versailles....
by her dull, imbercile husband.... so many things.

So she thought... while I am locked in this golden cage I think I will have some fun...
and she began to party and indulge in every kind of extravagence.
Locked away in her gilded cage she had no ideas of the harsh reality of life for the
peasants and the working class of Paris...the severe winters, the rising price of bread...
she had no notion of the growing resentments
that were building up among the ordinary people.

More and more Marie began to be the focus of pamphlets.... often of a
crude, pornographic nature and Marie realized too late how she had left herself
open to this kind of abuse and ridicule... until eventually she became a hate
figure with mobs on the march baying for her blood.


You are right... to use a luxurious, satin lined Berlin coach for their escape ...
was absurd.... when you realize the mortal danger they were in.
For Louis to insist on stopping to go for a lavish meal too is quite unbelieveable ..
but , as I have said, he was an imbecile... a dreamer and on another planet.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Archduke Carl Christian of Austria & Princess Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg 1982 Cathérine Bergeyck Royal Weddings 25 04-18-2014 09:24 PM
Archduchess Marie Christine of Austria and Count Rodolphe of Limburg-Stirum, 6 Dec 08 Marengo Weddings: Non-Reigning Houses & Nobility 208 01-09-2013 08:46 AM
Children of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette Etienne,DuchessofBurgundy Royal Families of France 65 12-19-2012 07:31 AM
"Marie-Antoinette" the movie (2006) morhange The Electronic Domain 75 01-24-2012 12:31 AM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth bourbon-parma charlene chris o'neill crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary current events danish royals duchess of cambridge duchess of cambridge style fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta cristina infanta elena infanta leonor infanta sofia king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander olympic games ottoman poland pom pregnancy prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince laurent prince maurits princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess marie princess marilene princess mary princess of asturias queen elizabeth ii queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia spain state visit visit wedding william winter olympics 2014


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:38 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]