France: Kings, Queens and Royal History

[Warren]

The Comte de Chambord is a glorious figure for French Legitimists, but certainly not for French Monarchists. Single-handedly, in his refusal to acknowledge le drapeau tricolore, the supremecy of the people in a 'democratic' state, or the legitimacy of the Orléans succession, he torpedoed any chance of the restoration of the Bourbon dynasty.

Henri, Duc de Bordeaux, Comte de Chambord, was born in 1820, the son of Charles, Duc de Berry (who was assassinated at the Paris Opera House in the year of his son's birth), and grandson of Charles X, King of France and Navarre. His mother was Princess Caroline, daughter of Francesco I, King of the Two Sicilies.

Charles X abdicated in 1830, was momentarily succeeded by his eldest son Louis (XIX), who was immediately followed by the Comte de Chambord as Henri (V).
As a consequence of the revolution of 1830 the throne passed from the direct line of the House of Bourbon to the Duke d'Orléans, who became Louis Philippe I, King of the French and Head of the House of Orléans.
On the death of Louis (XIX) in 1844 the Comte became Head of the Royal House of France.

The Comte de Chambord married Marie Therese (1817-1886), daughter of Francesco IV, Duke of Modena and Archduke of Austria.
He died in 1883. There were no children of the marriage.

[Russian]

One very interesting opinion exists about the grandson of King of France Charles X.
In 1870th years he made demands obviously unacceptable for the French society because he did not wish to borrow a throne in the country where there were so much revolts and revolutions?
Or I am not absolutely right?

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Russian

One very interesting opinion exists about the grandson of King of France Charles X.
In 1870th years he made demands obviously unacceptable for the French society because he did not wish to borrow a throne in the country where there were so much revolts and revolutions?
Or I am not absolutely right?

Oh, he wanted the throne all right. But the throne of an absolutist King modelled on the ancien regime. The Comte de Chambord was one of those Bourbons "who never learned".

[Russian]

The teacher of this French royal successor was the daughter of the Louis XVI and Maria-Antoinette as Henry V has early remained without parents. It has played the certain role in outlook of last representative of the French royal dynasty?

[Next Star]

Ten French kings have held the name Charles through the history of France being an monarchy I can't remember their periods of reign but I know that were ten kings with that name.

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by Next Star

Ten French kings have held the name Charles through the history of France being an monarchy I can't remember their periods of reign but I know that were ten kings with that name.

That's right, there were 10 French kings, named Charles.

Charles I (Charles the Bald - king from 843 to 877), the founder of Carolingian dynasty
Charles II (Charles the Fat - king from 885 to 888), also from the Carolingian dynasty
Charles III (Charles the Simple - king from 898 to 922), another king from Carolingian dynasty
Charles IV (king from 1322 to 1328), the last King of the Capetian Dynasty
Charles V (king from 1364 to 1380), King from the Dynasty of Valois
Charles VI (king from 1380 to 1422), from the Dynasty of Valois
Charles VII (king from 1422 to 1461), also from the House of Valois
Charles VIII (king from 1483 to 1498), King from the House of Valois
Charles IX (king from 1560 to 1574) from the House of Valois (Valois-Angouleme branch)
Charles X (King from 1824 to 1830) - from the restored Bourbon dynasty.

[magnik]

Rules of France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Frankish_Kings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_france

[Next Star]

That's amazing how four of the ten Kings' Of France named Charles succeeded one after another most the time the successor has a totally different name from the predsuccessor. The French royals bring rich history and tales of the monarchy and domain.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Next Star

That's amazing how four of the ten Kings' Of France named Charles succeeded one after another.

By my count there are three: Charles V, VI and VII.

[Next Star]

Okay their three and I am not perfect but they succeeded one after other.

Originally Posted by Warren

By my count there are three: Charles V, VI and VII.

[BillW65]

Originally Posted by Avalon

That's right, there were 10 French kings, named Charles.

Charles I (Charles the Bald - king from 843 to 877), the founder of Carolingian dynasty
Charles II (Charles the Fat - king from 885 to 888), also from the Carolingian dynasty
Charles III (Charles the Simple - king from 898 to 922), another king from Carolingian dynasty
Charles IV (king from 1322 to 1328), the last King of the Capetian Dynasty
Charles V (king from 1364 to 1380), King from the Dynasty of Valois
Charles VI (king from 1380 to 1422), from the Dynasty of Valois
Charles VII (king from 1422 to 1461), also from the House of Valois
Charles VIII (king from 1483 to 1498), King from the House of Valois
Charles IX (king from 1560 to 1574) from the House of Valois (Valois-Angouleme branch)
Charles X (King from 1824 to 1830) - from the restored Bourbon dynasty.

This has always caused me confusion. Charlemagne (Charles The Great) as King of the Franks is always counted as a "King of France" in many of the books I have. Therefore there were 11 kings by the name Charles if you count Charlemagne. The Kingdom of the Franks composed what is now modern France and parts of modern Germany and the low countries. If the kings of France are counted from the treaty of Verdun in 843 which broke up the Carolingian empire then yes, there were only 10 kings named Charles (we'd also have to exclude Louis I in that scenario..causing further discrepancies). What really causes me confusion: Is the Kingdom of the Franks a separate entity (or kingdom) from what later evolved into the modern Kingdom of France, or is it the ancient Kingdom of the Franks the same as the Kingdom of France? I'm confused and I have a degree in European history!!

[Konrad der Rote]

Originally Posted by Avalon

Charles I (Charles the Bald - king from 843 to 877), the founder of Carolingian dynasty
Charles II (Charles the Fat - king from 885 to 888), also from the Carolingian dynasty
Charles III (Charles the Simple - king from 898 to 922), another king from Carolingian dynasty
...

Sorry, but that's not correct.
In France Carlemagne is also called Charles I. le Grand (Charles I. the Great/Karl I. der Große - king of the Franks from 768 to 814, 800 roman emperor)
Charles II. le Chauve (Charles II. the Bald/Karl II. der Kahle - king of West Francia from 843 to 877, roman emperor 875)
As king of East and West Francia Charles (III.) le Gros (Charles the Fat/Karl der Dicke - king from 876 to 888, roman emperor 881) has no number. But as roman emperor he was the third ruler who was called Charles.
Charles III. le Simple (Karl III. the Simple/Karl III. der Einfältige - king of West Francia from 893 to 929)

|
\/
see the other rulers of West Fancia (France/Frankreich)

I hope you can read my english. This is not correct, I know.

[BillW65]

Hi & welcome Karl. Thanks for your post. Why doesn't Charles the Fat/Karl der Dicke - king from 876 to 888, roman emperor 881 have a number if he is recognized as a king in both the east and west Frankish kingdom? I think Charles The Simple should have been called Charles IV, other wise the numbering of the names of Charles for the kingdom of France doesn't make sense or add up.

[Konrad der Rote]

Originally Posted by BillW65

...Why doesn't Charles the Fat/Karl der Dicke - king from 876 to 888, roman emperor 881 have a number if he is recognized as a king in both the east and west Frankish kingdom? I think Charles The Simple should have been called Charles IV, other wise the numbering of the names of Charles for the kingdom of France doesn't make sense or add up.

Charles the Fat was an eastfrankish Carolingian. The numbering of all eastfrankish Carolingians is very complicated.
see there:List of German monarchs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Charles the Fat was the second King of his name who ruled the Eastern Francia Kingdom, after his great-grandfather Charles the Great. But in our Lists sometimes he is called "the third" (as roman emperor).

In Western Francia Kingdom Charles the Fat he has no number although he ruled this Kingdom from 884 to 888. Because just westfrankish-Carolingians they got a number.

[BillW65]

Originally Posted by Konrad der Rote

Charles the Fat was an eastfrankish Carolingian. The numbering of all eastfrankish Carolingians is very complicated.
see there:List of German monarchs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Charles the Fat was the second King of his name who ruled the Eastern Francia Kingdom, after his great-grandfather Charles the Great. But in our Lists sometimes he is called "the third" (as roman emperor).

In Western Francia Kingdom Charles the Fat he has no number although he ruled this Kingdom from 884 to 888. Because just westfrankish-Carolingians they got a number.

I have found in other monarchies the numbering system is not fool-proof, mistakes were made and there have been many.

One way I look at it is that the practice of giving monarchs a roman numeral was a tradition that came about many years later and often medieval kings were more known by their sobriquet than the number that was given them. Also many states such as France and Germany share a common history as the concept of nation-state changed and evolved in Europe over a considerable period of time.

For example Louis I "the Pious" (814-840) was a King of the Franks. Yet many centuries later Louis XIV (1643-1715) as a King of France was numbered as being from the same kingdom as Louis I. But the truth is Louis I's realm and the later evolved modern kingdom of France were so different that it is difficult to see both entities as being the same state. After the treaty of Verdun each section of the kingdom of the Franks developed and evolved separately taking different courses. The Western Frankish kingdom evolved into the modern Kingdom and state of France while the Eastern Kingdom evolved into what became known as the Holy Roman Empire.

Charles III "the Simple" died in 922 and was the last Western Frankish king by the name of Charles until 1322 when Charles IV came to the throne of France. Since it had been 400 years since the last Charles it is possible to see how mistakes could be made. In my opinion he should have been called Charles V of France. But as I said in the beginning other kingdoms made the same mistake.

I think I wrote this all out to answer my own questions for my own benefit to get this all straight in my head. :)

[Ithil]

Are there any pics that we can confirm are of Margaret of Provence, Queen consort to Louis IX, the Saint-king?

[Next Star]

There were alot of Kings named Louis who ruled France when it was a moanrchy.

[ladybelline]

Are there any pics that we can confirm are of Margaret of Provence, Queen consort to Louis IX, the Saint-king?

Margaret (Marguerite) had her own seal :

http://www.corpusetampois.com/cae-13...rite-sceau.gif

But like her husband, portraits realised when she was alive are not known...