The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #241  
Old 07-09-2015, 04:53 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 1,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
By that argument, William the Conqueror was just a general who killed the king and established himself as dictator.
Yes, but William the Conqueror found a royal line that, collaterally at least, still reigns in Great Britain almost 1,000 years later. After all, even though the current BRF is not the most senior line descending from Charles I Stuart, they descend from James I who, in turn, descends from Henry VII Tudor, who is himself a descendant of Henri II Plantagenet, who then descends from William the Conqueror. A similar argument could be made regarding the Orléans pretenders to the French throne for example (who descend from Louis XIII and, through him, collaterally all the way back to Hugh Capet).

Comparing those centuries-old royal lines to the one-term "empire" of Napoleon is ridiculous.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #242  
Old 07-09-2015, 05:41 PM
Nico's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 1,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I am pretty sure Anglo-Saxon historians have no problem identifying Napoleon as an usurper and a tyrant. It is mostly the French who insist on celebrating him as some kind of hero even though he ruined France's economy and was directly or indirectly responsible for the death of nearly 6 million Europeans .
Yeah sure ...
Maybe some Anglo-Saxon historians (because you know, the French ...) could teach you how Napoleon created the base of the French modern society with the civil code, still used nowadays. How France rose from the ashes after a desastrous and ruinous Revolution, to become, again, a powerful nation. How the country was modernized from a rural, almost middle aged region to a pre industrial nation. How France became again a leading nation in Arts and Science.
Maybe you could learn from the same historians that the "little nephew" gave to France the industrial revolution, rail transport, laws regarding women rights, child labour, education for all and that, basically, the Second Empire was one of the most prosperous time in the French History.
But as they are for you not "legitimate" enough to be in your very own version of the French history, who i am to contradict that ? Ah yes, one of those arrogant French. Damn it !
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #243  
Old 07-09-2015, 06:01 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 1,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico View Post
Yeah sure ...
Maybe some Anglo-Saxon historians (because you know, the French ...) could teach you how Napoleon created the base of the French modern society with the civil code, still used nowadays. How France rose from the ashes after a desastrous and ruinous Revolution, to become, again, a powerful nation. How the country was modernized from a rural, almost middle aged region to a pre industrial nation. How France became again a leading nation in Arts and Science.
Maybe you could learn from the same historians that the "little nephew" gave to France the industrial revolution, rail transport, laws regarding women rights, child labour, education for all and that, basically, the Second Empire was one of the most prosperous time in the French History.
But as they are for you not "legitimate" enough to be in your very own version of the French history, who i am to contradict that ? Ah yes, one of those arrogant French. Damn it !

The disastrous ending to both Napoleon I's and Napoleon III's "reigns" speaks for itself as evidence of the failure of their regimes. Of course, "perfidious Albion" is the one to blame as Napoleon I did in his diaries. As for Napoleon III, it was not I who called him "Little Napoleon", but rather, if I am not mistaken, your own revered author , Victor Hugo. But then, I guess we can also blame the evil Germans for his downfall, can't we ?

On the rest of the arguments, I suppose many neo-Nazis would also claim that Hitler "saved" Germany from the Great Depression, significantly cut unemployment, and made Germany "great again" after the "humiliation of WWI". Ditto for Stalin , who made the Soviet Union an industrial powerhouse, and many other 20th-century tyrants, all of whom took some inspiration from the glorious "Emperor of the French".
Reply With Quote
  #244  
Old 07-09-2015, 06:21 PM
Nico's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 1,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The disastrous ending to both Napoleon I's and Napoleon III's "reigns" speaks for itself as evidence of the failure of their regimes. Of course, "perfidious Albion" is the one to blame as Napoleon I did in his diaries. As for Napoleon III, it was not I who called him "Little Napoleon", but rather, if I am not mistaken, your own revered author , Victor Hugo. But then, I guess we can also blame the evil Germans for his downfall, can't we ?

On the rest of the arguments, I suppose many neo-Nazis would also claim that Hitler "saved" Germany from the Great Depression, significantly cut unemployment, and made Germany "great again" after the "humiliation of WWI". Ditto for Stalin in the Soviet Union and many other 20th-century tyrants, all of whom took some inspiration from the glorious "Emperor of the French".
You seem to enjoy some hazardous shortcuts with History in general, and the French one in particular.
History is a science with a lot of ramifications. To summarize and symplify some historic periods and figures like you're doing is not only wrong, but dangerous.
I'll be more than happy to suggest to you some bibliographies about the two French Empires, you'll be surprised.
You're welcome.
Reply With Quote
  #245  
Old 07-09-2015, 06:26 PM
Furienna's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 1,316
Even if the Bonapartes weren't so successful in the long run, they were still emperors at different points in French history. So you can say what you want about them, but they still were monarchs. And I won't even bother with the comparisons to Hitler and Stalin (don't wanna open that can of worms).
Reply With Quote
  #246  
Old 07-09-2015, 07:32 PM
JR76's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 903
France and Monarchy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The disastrous ending to both Napoleon I's and Napoleon III's "reigns" speaks for itself as evidence of the failure of their regimes.

When it comes to disastrous ends of reigns we can't overlook that out of the last four Bourbon kings of France three was ousted by popular uprisings and if we count the Hundred days as such they all four where. Adding to that while the legacy of few kings since the 1500s are anything the French celebrate the legacy of the two Bonapartes definitely is. The Second empire would've probably crumbled in the end anyway if not Empress Euginies plan for a constitutional monarchy under her son given time had managed to save it. Who knows?!
The difference to me between the Bonapartes and for instance Boukassa, Toussaint is that the former did indeed create a dynasty (of sorts) and made huge contributions to what today makes up the foundation of Western civilisation.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app
Reply With Quote
  #247  
Old 07-09-2015, 07:39 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,952
France and Monarchy

There is a difference too in that Napoleon was recognized as a monarch by the French (and other countries), and was crowned as such by the pope.

His may have been a conflicted rule and there may be problems in looking at only the good he achieved - although placing all of the problems of France at his feet is a bit ridiculous, given as France wasn't in a good state before he came to power to begin with) - but to dismiss him as simply a dictator comparable to Hitler or Stalin is to be a bit absurd. Hitler and Stalin may have taken some inspiration from Napoleon, but the basis of private law in Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Portugal (to name a few countries) is the Napoleonic Code. Not everything the man did was bad.
Reply With Quote
  #248  
Old 09-19-2015, 05:13 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: lockport, United States
Posts: 11
Very true,Napoleon was a great man,
Reply With Quote
  #249  
Old 09-19-2015, 09:28 PM
Blog Real's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 1,533
There is some movement in support of the monarchy in France?
__________________
Acclamation Manuel II of Portugal: 6 May 1908
Reply With Quote
  #250  
Old 01-17-2016, 12:52 PM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 17,640
Posts about the United States have been moved here.
__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #251  
Old 09-04-2016, 09:13 PM
Blog Real's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 1,533
Support for the monarchy is growing in France:
31% of citizens believe that a King would give better image abroad that a President of the Republic.
El apoyo a la monarquía crece en Francia
__________________
Acclamation Manuel II of Portugal: 6 May 1908
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 09-05-2016, 01:14 PM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,928
It is a bit a nonsense poll. The President of France has -as only one in West-Europe- a powerful executive role. In other West-European republics the President has a mainly ceremonial role. They are heads of state, not heads of Government. In fact little difference with Europe's monarchies.

A French King with executive powers will be shortlived. Look what happened in Bulgaria with the former King, Simeon von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha. When someone can be hold accountable for decisions and policy, it often puts a toll on appreciation. See Merkel. See Obama. See former King Simeon.

When France wants to restore the monarchy, it needs a total different systematic in the state. All executive powers (as held now by Hollande) should be executed by the democratically elected and accountable Premier Ministre, not by the inviolable King.

Of course the monarchists need to be united too. The fragmentation into bonapartists, orléanists or that faction behind Luis Alfonso de Borbón is not helping the monarchic ideal.
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 09-05-2016, 03:46 PM
Nico's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 1,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
Support for the monarchy is growing in France:
31% of citizens believe that a King would give better image abroad that a President of the Republic.
El apoyo a la monarquía crece en Francia
Nothing is "growing" ... This poll is a joke and everyone is laughing about it. It was made by Alliance Royale (oh suprise) with about 1100 people ...from the far right ! Big deal !
The question of Monarchy in France is a dead end issue. period.
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 09-05-2016, 05:25 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico View Post
Yeah sure ...
Maybe some Anglo-Saxon historians (because you know, the French ...) could teach you how Napoleon created the base of the French modern society with the civil code, still used nowadays. How France rose from the ashes after a desastrous and ruinous Revolution, to become, again, a powerful nation. How the country was modernized from a rural, almost middle aged region to a pre industrial nation. How France became again a leading nation in Arts and Science.
Maybe you could learn from the same historians that the "little nephew" gave to France the industrial revolution, rail transport, laws regarding women rights, child labour, education for all and that, basically, the Second Empire was one of the most prosperous time in the French History.
But as they are for you not "legitimate" enough to be in your very own version of the French history, who i am to contradict that ? Ah yes, one of those arrogant French. Damn it !
In my opinion, Napoleon I is overrated but Napolen III is underrated.

What's clear is that Napoleon I had a major effect on France which can still be felt to this day, for better or for worse. He fits very much into the tradition of the military strong man/saviour of the people at the apex of a hierarchical system between Louis XIV and De Gaulle. He "borrowed" many of the trappings of monarchy from the ancien régime and invented a new Imperial iconography in his own style. Much as certain C20th dictators have done, he 'restored greatness' by prosecuting external wars, leading his country to rack and ruin within little more than a decade. His 'revolution' was to install his own family on thrones across Europe.... His 'civil code' was designed to facilitate his regime's control over his subjects (and as such proved handy to the régimes that replaced him).

Napoleon III, however, doesn't seem to get the credit he deserves for his domestic policies - a normal phenomenon because "La République", the régime that succeeded him, had an interest in selling the idea that it had made things better. He had some of the vain and grandiose ambitions of his predecessor (notably in wanting to annex parts of neighbouring countries) and this played a major part in his downfall.
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 09-06-2016, 03:29 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy T View Post
In my opinion, Napoleon I is overrated but Napolen III is underrated.

[...]

Napoleon III, however, doesn't seem to get the credit he deserves for his domestic policies - a normal phenomenon because "La République", the régime that succeeded him, had an interest in selling the idea that it had made things better. He had some of the vain and grandiose ambitions of his predecessor (notably in wanting to annex parts of neighbouring countries) and this played a major part in his downfall.
A phenomenon we can witness in former monarchies as Greece, where King Constantine is kept in poor esteem despite the fact that all governments after him have led to the technical bankruptcy of Greece, a state which only exists thanks to unbelievable transfers from foreign debtors... The Kings might have had their faults, it was by no means that poor as what came after...
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 09-06-2016, 12:02 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
A phenomenon we can witness in former monarchies as Greece, where King Constantine is kept in poor esteem despite the fact that all governments after him have led to the technical bankruptcy of Greece, a state which only exists thanks to unbelievable transfers from foreign debtors... The Kings might have had their faults, it was by no means that poor as what came after...
Absolutely! As a twenty-something young man cornered by a very powerful (internally) military, he didn't handle the coup situation as well as, say, his much older brother-in-law 15 years later but he certainly did not merit the demonisation he underwent at the hands of successive governments, both right and left. Perhaps it's (still) easier for many Greeks to blame him than to examine the wider and deeper issues.
Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 10-13-2016, 05:39 PM
Blog Real's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 1,533
31% of citizens believe that a King would give better image abroad that a President of the Republic.

El apoyo a la monarquía crece en Francia
__________________

__________________
Acclamation Manuel II of Portugal: 6 May 1908
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hello from France isabelle 53 Member Introductions 4 08-12-2008 04:40 PM
Hello from France ! Violaine Member Introductions 3 03-14-2008 12:14 PM




Popular Tags
#jewels ascot 2016 autographed signed best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit brunei catherine middleton style coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit current events duchess of cambridge dutch state visit e-mail fashion poll grand duke jean greece history kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats princess mette-marit and women deliver conference queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania royal fashion september 2016 state visit state visit to denmark succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats wreathoflaurels


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:49 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises