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  #41  
Old 01-22-2019, 08:33 AM
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I think the provocative part was the Spanish morganatic branch starting to claim & use French titles. Not that the French branch of the family is using its own titles for members of the family.

Didn't the late count of Paris start a court case to change the name of the dynasty to Bourbon d'Orleans? I believe he lost, so it is still simply Orleans.
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  #42  
Old 01-22-2019, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I think the provocative part was the Spanish morganatic branch starting to claim & use French titles. Not that the French branch of the family is using its own titles for members of the family.

Didn't the late count of Paris start a courtcase to change the name of the dynasty to Bourbon d'Orleans? I believe he lost, so it is still simply Orleans.

I am not sure. I think the court case was about preventing Alphonse de Bourbon (Louis Alphonse's father) from using the title of Duc d'Anjou and the undifferentiated coat of arms of the Kings of France. The French courts ruled they had no jurisdiction on that matter.
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  #43  
Old 01-22-2019, 09:11 AM
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Thanks for the clarification, I forgot the full story.

While looking for more information I came across this article:

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/proces2.htm

As count of Clermont prince Henri sued the late Don Alfonso de Borbon y Dampierre to prevent him from using the title Duke of Anjou. The case was rejected as well. Don Alfonso and the count of Clermont debated each other in a television programme:

http://www.democratie-royale.org/201...ans-video.html
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  #44  
Old 01-22-2019, 09:23 AM
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More on the court case mentioned by Marengo in post 41:

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/fra...oyal.htm#names

Quote:
Recently, the head of the house of Orléans, the comte de Paris, sued in French courts to have his family name changed from "Orléans" to "Bourbon" (note that he refers to himself as Henri de France, but that is not his legal name).

[...]

The comte de Paris claimed that his ancestors had stopped using the surname of Bourbon, but it had remained his true patronym, and he had a right to resume its use. The courts found against him, successively the lower court in Paris, the Appeals Court of Paris (Feb 1, 2001) and finally the Court of Cassation (Sept. 30, 2003, 01-03219, see Legifrance and search by "numéro d'affaire" 01-03219).

AU NOM DU PEUPLE FRANCAIS

AU NOM DU PEUPLE FRANCAIS

LA COUR DE CASSATION, PREMIERE CHAMBRE CIVILE, a rendu l'arrêt suivant :

Sur le moyen unique, pris en ses deux branches :

Attendu que, M. Henri d'X... reproche à l'arrêt confirmatif attaqué (Paris, 1er février 2001) d'avoir rejeté sa requête en rectification d'état civil à fin de rétablir son nom d'origine de Y... et se nommer à l'avenir Henri de Y..., alors, selon le moyen :

[...]

Mais attendu que si la possession loyale et prolongée d'un nom ne fait pas obstacle en principe à ce que celui qui le porte, renonçant à s'en prévaloir, revendique le nom de ses ancêtres, il appartient alors au juge, en considération, notamment, de la durée respective et de l'ancienneté des possessions invoquées, ainsi que des circonstances dans lesquelles elles se sont succédé, d'apprécier s'il y a lieu d'accueillir cette revendication ;

Attendu qu'en l'espèce, par motifs adoptés, la cour d'appel a souverainement estimé que c'était volontairement que le nom d'X... avait été substitué à celui de Y... par le fils cadet de Louis XIII et tous ses descendants qui avaient ainsi abandonné le nom de Y... et que cette volonté de porter le nom d'X... avait été confirmée par le roi Louis-Philippe lors de son accession au trône ; que, par des seuls motifs, elle a légalement justifié sa décision ;

According to Chivalricorders.org, the republic of France acknowledges the titles claimed by all three former reigning families (Orléans, Bonaparte, and Bourbon).
That seems indeed to be the case as Luis Alfonso is titled "HRH the Duke of Anjou" on official documents issued by the French state. https://www.elconfidencialdigital.co...861513845.html
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  #45  
Old 01-22-2019, 09:27 AM
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The late Count de Paris, then Comte de Clermont should have titled his nephew Charles Philippe Duc de Nemours instead of Duc d' Anjou. That was his wish because his Father Prince François was close to the last Duke de Nemours.

The late Comte de Paris titled his handicaped Son François Dauphin and Comte de Clermont. His Brother Prince jean , Duke de Vendome was tittled Regent .
As Prince François died in december 2017 , his brother Jean has his tittle.
I read that for the moment Jean will remain Duke de Vendome.
The Heritage of the Comte and Comtesse de Paris is not closed .

I recommend highly Mrs Marlene Koenig article in the Royal Musings with pictures of her own collection.
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  #46  
Old 01-22-2019, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post


Thanks for the clarification, I forgot the full story.

While looking for more information I came across this article:

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/proces2.htm

As count of Clermont prince Henri sued the late Don Alfonso de Borbon y Dampierre to prevent him from using the title Duke of Anjou. The case was rejected as well. Don Alfonso and the count of Clermont debated each other in a television programme:

S.A.R Alphonse de Bourbon VS Henri d'Orléans - vidéo - Contre-révolution, royalisme, royaliste, catholique, Nouvel ordre mondial, monarchie traditionnelle



The Count of Clermont's lawsuit is the one I was actually referring to. The lawsuit filed by the late Count of Paris which you alluded to is detailed above in a post by Tatiana Maria.
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  #47  
Old 01-22-2019, 12:49 PM
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Has a funeral date been announced yet?
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  #48  
Old 01-22-2019, 01:24 PM
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There were more Bourbon branches known without "Bourbon" in the name: the House of Condé, the House of Montpensier, the House of Bragança, the House of Galliera, etc. But I understand Henri's desire to be known as Bourbon-d'Orléans.

It is more or less the same as the quarrel between Savoia and Savoia-Aosta.
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  #49  
Old 01-22-2019, 02:18 PM
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I hope that chef of the Maison de Bourbon-Orléans will be known again as Duc d'Orléans. ... Prince Jean's uncle Prince Jacques is the current Duc d'Orléans. I hope that after him the title goes back to the Chef de la Maison. Prince Jacques' sons are Charles-Louis, Duc de Chartres and Foulques, Duc d'Aumale. So they are already "provided" with a ducal title.
However the title duc de Chartres is an ancien régime "place-holder" title traditionally associated with the eldest son and heir of the duc d'Orléans until that son succeeded his father. So it would seem that, when Charles-Louis was created duc de Chartres, the intent of the senior Henri Comte de Paris (1908-1999) was for the Orléans ducal title to pass from Jacques to his eldest son, thus returning to how it was done in the days of the monarchy.
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  #50  
Old 01-22-2019, 04:26 PM
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I always presumed that Jean would be known as the new Count of Paris and Gaston as the Duke of Vendome once Henri died, though it will now be interesting to see what titles the family will get if they'll get new ones.
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  #51  
Old 01-22-2019, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Addapalla View Post
However the title duc de Chartres is an ancien régime "place-holder" title traditionally associated with the eldest son and heir of the duc d'Orléans until that son succeeded his father. So it would seem that, when Charles-Louis was created duc de Chartres, the intent of the senior Henri Comte de Paris (1908-1999) was for the Orléans ducal title to pass from Jacques to his eldest son, thus returning to how it was done in the days of the monarchy.
Welcome to the board. Thanks for your reply. Yes, in an ideal situation:
le prince Jean d'Orléans, Duc d'Orléans
le prince Gaston d'Orléans, Duc de Chartres (heir to Prince Jean)

It is strange that the main title of the House of Orléans and the traditional title to the heir went to a fourth junior son of the then Head, Prince Henri (1908-1999). It is one of the visible results of the utter chaos which defined his disastrous headship of the House.
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  #52  
Old 01-22-2019, 05:00 PM
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Please , remain on topic.
Jean will remain Duke de Vendome yet.
He does not want to be Comte de Paris now because we will have 2 Comtesses de Paris.
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  #53  
Old 01-22-2019, 05:25 PM
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Thank you Duc et Pair. Yes, the chaos in Orléans use of old titles you describe was partly due to the Orléans branch being relative newcomers to begin with - the wobbly July Monarchy being of brief duration. The quick disintegration of an understanding of dynastic tradition in the Orléans family served as a precursor of what would happen in many of the sovereign families dethroned over the next century, and also among the more "creative" existing monarchies where they just keep making it all up as they go along.

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He does not want to be Comte de Paris now because we will have 2 Comtesses de Paris.
What's wrong with having two living Comtesses de Paris? Sometimes a country has had three living queens, such as Britain in 1952-1953. From 1854-1873, there were three living Empresses of Austria / Queens of Hungary. There were three living Empresses of Russia in 1825-1826. Three overlapping Queens of France in the 1580's.
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  #54  
Old 01-22-2019, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Addapalla View Post
What's wrong with that? Sometimes a country has had three living queens, such as Britain in 1952-1953. From 1854-1873, there were three living Empresses of Austria / Queens of Hungary.
Or of more recent memory 3 Belgian Queens up until 2014.
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  #55  
Old 01-22-2019, 07:13 PM
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What's wrong with having two living Comtesses de Paris? Sometimes a country has had three living queens, such as Britain in 1952-1953. From 1854-1873, there were three living Empresses of Austria / Queens of Hungary. There were three living Empresses of Russia in 1825-1826. Three overlapping Queens of France in the 1580's.
Probably it's easier if the relationships between them are better? It doesn't seem that Jean and his father had a good relationship and I believe his relationship with his stepmother is strained as well. Didn't all children side with their mother in the divorce (and even prior to the divorce as their parents had been estranged for some time due to Henri's relationship with Micaela, his later wife)? So, I understand why he is not to keen on having both his wife and his stepmother sharing the same title (albeit in slightly different ways). He might not want to take up the title at all. It's not that all previous heads of the family were known by this title; his great-grandfather stayed 'Duke of Guise'; and it doesn't seem that either his father or grandfather (who both held the title) are great examples to follow.
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  #56  
Old 01-22-2019, 07:54 PM
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Probably it's easier if the relationships between them are better? It doesn't seem that Jean and his father had a good relationship and I believe his relationship with his stepmother is strained as well. Didn't all children side with their mother in the divorce (and even prior to the divorce as their parents had been estranged for some time due to Henri's relationship with Micaela, his later wife)? So, I understand why he is not to keen on having both his wife and his stepmother sharing the same title (albeit in slightly different ways). He might not want to take up the title at all. It's not that all previous heads of the family were known by this title; his great-grandfather stayed 'Duke of Guise'; and it doesn't seem that either his father or grandfather (who both held the title) are great examples to follow.
Yes: Marie, Jean, and Eudes have consistently sided with Marie-Thérèse.

The fate of the current Countess of Paris will be interesting. One hopes that her stepchildren treat her with some measure of kindness. She had an only son from her first marriage; however, I do not know if he is still alive.

The Duchess of Montpensier will always be the centre of the family as long as she lives. For some time, she has lived at Dreux near Jean and Philomena.
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  #57  
Old 01-22-2019, 08:29 PM
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The situation with two countesses has been dealt with recently in France. When Henri became Comte de Paris, his mother was still alive. Isabelle died in 2003, four years after her husband. Micaela chose to use the female version of her husband's second title Duke of France, and be title Duchess of France, in deference to her mother in law. She started being referred to as Countess of Paris in 2003 after her mother in law died.

The same could be done if needed, and Philomena continue to be referred to as Duchess of Vendome or Duchess of France, while Micaela is alive. Not sure deference to the woman though is a prime concern.

Quote:
It is strange that the main title of the House of Orléans and the traditional title to the heir went to a fourth junior son of the then Head, Prince Henri (1908-1999). It is one of the visible results of the utter chaos which defined his disastrous headship of the House.

Only odd in that it was given to Henri's brother and not his son. If Henri was stripped because of his non-dynastic marriage, one would assume his son from his dynastic first marriage would be heir instead. It seems odd children born before his non-dynastic marriage were removed from succession by their grandfather.


As far as brothers go though, he may have been the fourth oldest, but he was the oldest claimant after Henri. The second brother Francois died in 1960 fighting for France in Algeria. The third brother Michel made a non-dynastic marriage which like Henri, would have made him ineligible to be heir to their father. Michel's wife and children were not recognized as dynastic members of the family until his father died in 1999. Until then his wife was only allowed to use his title as a courtesy. When his brother Henri became count, he recognized the marriage and kids as dynastic.
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  #58  
Old 01-22-2019, 10:05 PM
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The same could be done if needed, and Philomena continue to be referred to as Duchess of Vendome or Duchess of France
One hopes that the ill-conceived and preposterous "duc/ duchesse de France" title will never be used again.

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[Jean] might not want to take up the title at all. ... it doesn't seem that either his father or grandfather (who both held the title) are great examples to follow.
So true, Somebody. One hopes that Jean, with such a nice wife and happy home life, will bring back dignity and stability to the position he has inherited.
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  #59  
Old 01-23-2019, 10:07 AM
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There were more Bourbon branches known without "Bourbon" in the name: the House of Condé, the House of Montpensier, the House of Bragança, the House of Galliera, etc.
Those branches actually had Bourbon in their name, but since the latter three were Spanish or Portuguese, they used compound names.
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  #60  
Old 01-23-2019, 11:23 AM
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Those branches actually had Bourbon in their name, but since the latter three were Spanish or Portuguese, they used compound names.

IMHO people who know about the thre different pretenders to the French throne and where their claim comes from know about the Orléans being a Capeting branch as were the Valois and the main-line Bourbon.



It is after all just a chance name going back to the first of this line's possession and title and is not really a "family name". Just like Schlewsig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg is the territorial title of a junior branch of the family which ruled Oldenburg in their main line and not a "family name". Or like the Holstein-Gottorp was the territorial title of the duke (again of a junior branch of the family whose main line ruled Oldenburg) who married Anna Romanova of Russia, their son founded the dynasty of "Romanov-Gottorp". A lot of those ancient European nobles simply don't have a family name but go by the territorial title of the male who founded their branch.



As the Orléans are all from the Royal branch Philippe de Orléans founded, they should go with tradition and be proud of being the House of Orléans. As I said: IMHO.
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