Vatican City State: Pope Francis accession/Inauguration & Current Events:March 2013-


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The focal point is on the Catholic faith at ANY celebration of Mass...whether it's for a funeral, a wedding, or a Pope's Inaugural.
Yes, but doesn't the Inauguration of the pope install him as the head of the Catholic church? I don't know if there will be some kind of "swear loyalty to the pope as the head of the Catholic church" by the congregation. but if there is something like that during the mass, I can understand if non-catholic royals would find it a bit difficult to do that, and to not participate in such a part could be seen as disrespectful by others at the mass. For example the members of the Swedish royal family (with the exception of in-laws) have to be "of the pure Lutheran faith" and I don't think that any kind of swearing loyalty to a Catholic pope, even if only symbolically, would be popular among the Swedish Lutheran clergy.
 
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Yes, but doesn't the Inauguration of the pope install him as the head of the Catholic church?

Yes,that's why it is called an Inauguration.

No one not of the RCC Faith is forced to do anything,and as for Royals attending,regardless the Faith,they just adjust to the occasion as Royals are used to do.No-one has to swear anything else then for the weather to remain dry while this event takes place on St.Peter Square this coming tuesday.:whistling:...:D

http://www.ppe-agency.com/show.php/zoektype=27search=13-03-2013%20Paus
 
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Thank you for an incredibly honest and insightful post Lucien...
I agree with everything you say and also thank Lucien for what must be one of the most open and honest posts I've ever read.
Most importanty for me personally are Lucien's words " He is Pope for all,and all includes gays" and Osipi's words " a humble cardinal from Argentina has become Pope to millions of Catholics and a world figure to the rest of the world watching". I don't have much religious faith at this point in my life, but for some reason I do have faith in Pope Francis because somehow I feel confident about him. The more I hear of his humility (such as refusing the white chair after the election, paying his hotel bill etc) the more I feel he is a great religious person upon whom anyone, anywhere can connect with and take comfort from.

There will be a great deal of coverage for the inauguration from BBC News and Euronews and it will probably start hours before the main event. So I'm quite sure we will have clear images of who will attend. I do hope Charles and Camilla will go - Charles is very open in his religious thoughts having had the Russian Creed sung at his wedding and it would be a great symbol of inter-faith unity for the future head of the Church of England to attend the inauguration of the head of the Catholic Church.
 
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And the answer is: @RegalEyes: Queen's representative at the Inaugural Mass for Pope Francis will be Duke of Gloucester. He will be accompanied by Duchess of Gloucester.
 
The present Pontiff however doesn't as much have the wrong views,no,he teaches by the official guidelines of the church,BUT...with a immensely human touch.He is Pope for all,and all includes gays.They are,we are,nothing special,there are tens of millions of us,everywhere,it's a every family has one sort of thing...and should be happy with them,they add some colour to life...well,most...

Those are really wise and beautiful words Lucien! Pope Francisco says the base of the Church is Jesus Christ and what the cross represents. Jesus accepts and loves all. We are all his children and all built in God's image. And yes, big changes are coming!
 
Those are really wise and beautiful words Lucien! Pope Francisco says the base of the Church is Jesus Christ and what the cross represents. Jesus accepts and loves all. We are all his children and all built in God's image. And yes, big changes are coming!

That´s true! We also cannot underrate his choice of name-it says a lot about the pope e.g. Benedict 15 was known as "the pope of peace" (he had diplomatic skills that earned him respect in religious and also secular circles) and Cardinal Ratzinger probably wanted to use his name because he wanted to consolidate the church and solve problems that were within the church.

Franz/Francis from Assissi was a devout catholic who took the words of the Bible very serious and didn´t like any pomp or ostentatious behaviour and lifestyle.He helped the poor and spent a lot of time outside,he also critisised the Catholic church who was living like some royals from the past centuries-lavish,glamourous and with lots of concubines and excessive eating & drinking.Look at the churches from the Baroque time or St. Peter´s Cathedral in Rome and you will know what I am talking about-everything was too big,too luxurious,too much gold and far too expensive while at the same time many people didn´t even have enough food to fill their stomach.

The new pope also comes from a region with huge discrepancies between poor & rich people and that obviously made a lasting impression on him.
The Jesuits (people who are working and living after the words of Jesus Christ) are doing a lot of charitable work that should be done by the respective countries government (but the money goes to a few private people instead)-like building schools,unis,hospitals and giving health care accessible to every citizen!
They (and many other charities and religious groups) are doing a lot for the poorest of the poor who don´t have much choices in life and try to do everything to create a better life for underprívileged people.
Pope Francis also chose a bright red flag which may imply his connection to social-democracy (just my interpretaion) and his belief that everyone is created equal and should get the same opportunuties and rights.

some infos on Pope Benedict 15:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XV
articles about the current pope and new pontiff are also widely available online :)
 
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Those are really wise and beautiful words Lucien! Pope Francisco says the base of the Church is Jesus Christ and what the cross represents. Jesus accepts and loves all. We are all his children and all built in God's image. And yes, big changes are coming!

Jesus might love us all but according to his views this Pope doesn't. In 2010 he opposed new legislation to introduce same sex marriage, saying

"In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote: "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." He has also insisted that adoption by homosexuals is a form of discrimination against children."

I don't see any big changes in the Catholic Church other than this guy may sort the abuse problem. I doubt it though. This is the Catholic Church we're talking about, Francis seems like a down to earth guy but he's not going to wipe the slate and start a fresh. Catholic Church believes homosexuality, abortion, Euthanasia and a whole load of others things are wrong and just because Francis takes the bus to work I doubt he's going to change it.
 
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I disagree with your assertion that this pope doesn't love all. While he is against all that you mentioned, he has also stated that we should love gays, and he ripped a new one into his priests who were denying baptism to children born out of wedlock.

It seems that HH believes in "dislike the sin BUT love the sinner."
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The Prince of Orange and Princess Máxima will attend the inauguration.

Source: RVD
 
I disagree with your assertion that this pope doesn't love all. While he is against all that you mentioned, he has also stated that we should love gays, and he ripped a new one into his priests who were denying baptism to children born out of wedlock.

It seems that HH believes in "dislike the sin BUT love the sinner."

I was trying to post something on Lumutqueen's remarks but I will make your words mine.

Everybody is accepted at the bossom of the Church. All of us are sinners.
 
Add president de Kirchner and Messi and it will be a grand Argentine party going on there...Viva...LOL...:)
 
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Could Pope Francis accord the privilege du blanc to the Catholic wifes of protestant kings? Or just to Maxima, even though she is not yet the queen?

The "privilege" allows wifes of the successor of a monarch who was granted the title of "Catholic" monarch to wear white on visiting the pope. You get that title if the pope decides that in your reign and private life you live "catholic values". In a modern interpretation it need not necessary be that a "Catholic queen/Crown princess" reigns as a Catholic but that she supports the positive values of her faith in her position. Kind of an papal order, which even spouses of protestant monarchs could accept IMHO.

I believe Princess and future queen-to-be Maxima has shown that she lives by the positive values of her faith in her work as a Royal, so she could IMHO be granted that privilege if it still means somthing to her and the pope.

Waht do you think?
 
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Could Pope Francis accord the privilege du blanc to the Catholic wifes of protestant kings?
I don't think so...she isn't the Catholic wife of a Catholic Monarch nor is she a Catholic monarch.
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Add the President of Ireland to the list also!
 
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The Austrian president Heinz Fischer will also attend the ceremony. He was already at JPII. funeral as well as Benedikt's inauguration Mass. :)
 
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I understand the comments about "loving the sinner but hating the sin", which has been my position since I was too young to know what it meant, i.e., growing up with other "artists" who danced and played music and were "different", i.e. homosexual. This point of view comes perfectly natural to me. The last day I spent in the Catholic Church in a badly oriented diocese, I sat next to a homosexual couple. I did not hate them, I simply wondered why God allowed this to happen to them. I didn't leave the Church for that reason at all...there were a myriad of problems in that diocese, even outright defiance of John Paul II as a "bad man" in one parish. I tried a lot of parishes. I have seen great parishes elsewhere.
This Pope seems like a great one to me, but I doubt he can move the slumberous weight of the Roman Church. Nevertheless, saints have always defied the odds.
 
The first female pope would not be a Popess. In Italian, "pope" is Papa", right? So she would be a Mama!
In my Episcopal congregation, as in many New Mexico congregations, the female priests are called "Mother". I think this is just right.

Well, Joan, the woman who, disguised as a man, was elected Pope, is called Popess.
 
The whole pope Joan thing is a myth.


LaRae
 
No one really knows if she's a fact or a mith.
I, personally, believe on the story. History Channel has made a very good documentary about Her Holiness.
 
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The history channel is not so good on their research or their facts, I've seen a number of historical errors on various shows. I've yet to see any proof there was a woman who pretended to be a man in order to become pope.
 
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If she was a fact, I doubt the Vatican left many proofs of her existence.
 
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Could Pope Francis accord the privilege du blanc to the Catholic wifes of protestant kings? Or just to Maxima, even though she is not yet the queen?

Let's certainly hope not. As a crown princess she will only wear black for sure. She will be queen of a nation whose culture has been mainly influenced by calvinism. She married into a family which has always been protestant and which at times was seen as the champion of protestantism in Europe since the days of William the Silent. Let's not forget that one of the reasons that the Netherlands actually became a country is because they revolted against all the wrong doings of the catholic church! And they revolted against this church & Spain under the leadership of the house of Orange. In that light I expect that Máxima will never wear white at the Vatican. For many it is already bad enough that she never converted to the Dutch reformed church. No need to push it further.

And added to the above, to show too much reverence to an institute which has become rediculous -or even criminal- in the eyes of a vast majorty of the Dutch (though lucien is an exception) isn't helpful for her new position either. The recent (sexual) scandals have been devastating for the image of the church over here. An institute that systematically allows sexual abuse, covers it up and refuses to deal with it must be rotten to the core is what most people think. Even the catholic parts of the country have big problems (86%) with the present ways of the church:

Brabanders zien niets meer in katholieke kerk - Christendom - TROUW

In Dutch news programmes we already saw several reports about the new pope and his role during the Videla regime & afterwards. Apparently he was very reluctant to help the victims to get justice. This was immidiately linked to Máxima's father, which is painful at the very least. So let's hope that she will be discreet about her religious views & will not flaunt her beliefs too much.
 
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So, who will represent each of Europe's Constitutional Monarchies at the Inauguration?

- United Kingdom: TRH the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester.

- Spain: THR the Prince and Princess of Asturias.

- Denmark: ?

- Sweden: ?

- Norway: ?

- Netherlands: THR the Prince and Princess of Orange.

- Monaco: ?

- Liechtenstein: ?

- Luxembourg: THR the Grand Duke and Grand Duchess.

- Belgium: ?

And the non-reigning Royal House, they'll will send representatives? And Japanese Imperial Family, any word from them?
 
Let's certainly hope not. As a crown princess she will only wear black for sure. She will be queen of a nation which culture has been mainly influenced by calvinism. She married into a family which has always been protestant and which at times was seen as the champion of protestantism in Europe. Let's not forget that the Netherlands became a country because they revolted against all the wrong doings of the catholic church! In that light I expect that Máxima will never wear white at the Vatican. For many it is already bad enough that she never converted to the Dutch reformed church. No need to push it further.

And added to the above, to show too much reverence to an institute which has become rediculous -or even criminal- in the eyes of a vast majorty of the Dutch (though lucien is an exception) isn't helpful for her new position either. The recent (sexual) scandals have been devastating for the image of the church over here. An institute that systematically allows sexual abuse, covers it up and refuses to deal with it must be rotten to the core is what most people think. Even the catholic parts of the country have big problems (86%) with the present ways of the church:

Brabanders zien niets meer in katholieke kerk - Christendom - TROUW

She did wear white though at Mass at the Cathedral in Rotterdam,so she might again.Nothing wrong with that at all.And the devide isn't such a devide any more...500 years have passed...and the eucemenical ways have become part of ecclesiastical life,joining any denomination together be they any form of protestantism and RC,it doesn't matter that much,it all boils down the same:God.,,but I understand where you come from...but that is too strict these days...

And on the abuse,even critics were baffled by this new Pontiff's approach and presentation but now feel there might be a huge change,already sort of announced by the Pope himself in saying;"No more hiding by the Church"..And it will be back to core business too,no mingling in wordly matters.

But,before he has this show on the road it might take a year,or less,but as a Jesuit he is not only intellectual but very well trained to tackle problems,taking the cow by the horns as they say.I don't doubt that at all.He had the same baffling effect on the critics of the Church,the Jesuits being sort of front runners in that,they criticize "Rome" for many centuries,they were banned by the Vatican in the 18th century,and were again under close scrutiny under JPII....So much so that JP II had put them under extra supervision,..JPII vehemently opposed all reforms,all...except for helpimg bring down the Wall,the Iron Curtain,that man is way too far overrated..If the saying applies;" Change is valueble because it lets the oppressed be tirants"...then he was a close call...and not soo nice as a person as always seemed,a lot of the damage done is due to his (lack of-) actions...The Jesuits,overall,were taken completely by surprise too with the choise for this man.Not a man of the Curia,some Papal commissions yes,but nothing too wild and not in a spot where he could change anything...except in his diocese...He LIVED the Word,not just preaching it....He will address and tackle all the problems,given he has the time of life to do so.

Churches have been running empty faster then they ran full the past decades yes,but if he pulls through..again,given the time of life....he can make many to make a u-turn back in with the different approach,a human approach,the feel they can connect with him on a human scale,not hampered by anything but open souls only,openness and compassion and harmony..
 
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Yes, but doesn't the Inauguration of the pope install him as the head of the Catholic church? I don't know if there will be some kind of "swear loyalty to the pope as the head of the Catholic church" by the congregation. but if there is something like that during the mass, I can understand if non-catholic royals would find it a bit difficult to do that, and to not participate in such a part could be seen as disrespectful by others at the mass. For example the members of the Swedish royal family (with the exception of in-laws) have to be "of the pure Lutheran faith" and I don't think that any kind of swearing loyalty to a Catholic pope, even if only symbolically, would be popular among the Swedish Lutheran clergy.

Catholics do not swear loyalty to the Pope during any Masses. We make a Profession of Faith in the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" during the Credo at each Mass, but no one who is not Catholic is ever coerced to join in.

For that matter, you don't have to join in even if you ARE Catholic.

As for the Swedish Royal Family and their strict adherence to Lutheranism, I am not so sure. Victoria made a point of receiving the Eucharist during Albert of Monaco's wedding and her father the King did the same at Otto of Austria's Requiem Mass. This was a clear disregard for Catholic teaching which restricts Protestants from approaching the Sacrament since their understanding of what it actually is differs sharply from what Catholics believe.

But neither Victoria or Carl Gustav seemed concerned about how that would go over with either the Swedish clergy or the people.


lucien, Jacknch,bluerengel and all the rest of you, thanks for the fascinating and insightful posts! I am learning more in this thread than I did at catechism!
 
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Anyone who rides the subway back and forth to work every day is a saint in my book.

Don't ask me how I know this.
 
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