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  #141  
Old 03-15-2013, 07:19 PM
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No one really knows if she's a fact or a mith.
I, personally, believe on the story. History Channel has made a very good documentary about Her Holiness.
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  #142  
Old 03-15-2013, 07:36 PM
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The history channel is not so good on their research or their facts, I've seen a number of historical errors on various shows. I've yet to see any proof there was a woman who pretended to be a man in order to become pope.
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  #143  
Old 03-15-2013, 07:39 PM
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If she was a fact, I doubt the Vatican left many proofs of her existence.
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  #144  
Old 03-15-2013, 09:28 PM
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Add the President of Ireland to the list also!
It will be a va et vient of sorts An.

And also:

BBC News - Pope Francis calls for evangelism drive
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  #145  
Old 03-15-2013, 09:42 PM
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Could Pope Francis accord the privilege du blanc to the Catholic wifes of protestant kings? Or just to Maxima, even though she is not yet the queen?
Let's certainly hope not. As a crown princess she will only wear black for sure. She will be queen of a nation whose culture has been mainly influenced by calvinism. She married into a family which has always been protestant and which at times was seen as the champion of protestantism in Europe since the days of William the Silent. Let's not forget that one of the reasons that the Netherlands actually became a country is because they revolted against all the wrong doings of the catholic church! And they revolted against this church & Spain under the leadership of the house of Orange. In that light I expect that Máxima will never wear white at the Vatican. For many it is already bad enough that she never converted to the Dutch reformed church. No need to push it further.

And added to the above, to show too much reverence to an institute which has become rediculous -or even criminal- in the eyes of a vast majorty of the Dutch (though lucien is an exception) isn't helpful for her new position either. The recent (sexual) scandals have been devastating for the image of the church over here. An institute that systematically allows sexual abuse, covers it up and refuses to deal with it must be rotten to the core is what most people think. Even the catholic parts of the country have big problems (86%) with the present ways of the church:

Brabanders zien niets meer in katholieke kerk - Christendom - TROUW

In Dutch news programmes we already saw several reports about the new pope and his role during the Videla regime & afterwards. Apparently he was very reluctant to help the victims to get justice. This was immidiately linked to Máxima's father, which is painful at the very least. So let's hope that she will be discreet about her religious views & will not flaunt her beliefs too much.
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  #146  
Old 03-15-2013, 09:52 PM
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So, who will represent each of Europe's Constitutional Monarchies at the Inauguration?

- United Kingdom: TRH the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester.

- Spain: THR the Prince and Princess of Asturias.

- Denmark: ?

- Sweden: ?

- Norway: ?

- Netherlands: THR the Prince and Princess of Orange.

- Monaco: ?

- Liechtenstein: ?

- Luxembourg: THR the Grand Duke and Grand Duchess.

- Belgium: ?

And the non-reigning Royal House, they'll will send representatives? And Japanese Imperial Family, any word from them?
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  #147  
Old 03-15-2013, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Let's certainly hope not. As a crown princess she will only wear black for sure. She will be queen of a nation which culture has been mainly influenced by calvinism. She married into a family which has always been protestant and which at times was seen as the champion of protestantism in Europe. Let's not forget that the Netherlands became a country because they revolted against all the wrong doings of the catholic church! In that light I expect that Máxima will never wear white at the Vatican. For many it is already bad enough that she never converted to the Dutch reformed church. No need to push it further.

And added to the above, to show too much reverence to an institute which has become rediculous -or even criminal- in the eyes of a vast majorty of the Dutch (though lucien is an exception) isn't helpful for her new position either. The recent (sexual) scandals have been devastating for the image of the church over here. An institute that systematically allows sexual abuse, covers it up and refuses to deal with it must be rotten to the core is what most people think. Even the catholic parts of the country have big problems (86%) with the present ways of the church:

Brabanders zien niets meer in katholieke kerk - Christendom - TROUW
She did wear white though at Mass at the Cathedral in Rotterdam,so she might again.Nothing wrong with that at all.And the devide isn't such a devide any more...500 years have passed...and the eucemenical ways have become part of ecclesiastical life,joining any denomination together be they any form of protestantism and RC,it doesn't matter that much,it all boils down the same:God.,,but I understand where you come from...but that is too strict these days...

And on the abuse,even critics were baffled by this new Pontiff's approach and presentation but now feel there might be a huge change,already sort of announced by the Pope himself in saying;"No more hiding by the Church"..And it will be back to core business too,no mingling in wordly matters.

But,before he has this show on the road it might take a year,or less,but as a Jesuit he is not only intellectual but very well trained to tackle problems,taking the cow by the horns as they say.I don't doubt that at all.He had the same baffling effect on the critics of the Church,the Jesuits being sort of front runners in that,they criticize "Rome" for many centuries,they were banned by the Vatican in the 18th century,and were again under close scrutiny under JPII....So much so that JP II had put them under extra supervision,..JPII vehemently opposed all reforms,all...except for helpimg bring down the Wall,the Iron Curtain,that man is way too far overrated..If the saying applies;" Change is valueble because it lets the oppressed be tirants"...then he was a close call...and not soo nice as a person as always seemed,a lot of the damage done is due to his (lack of-) actions...The Jesuits,overall,were taken completely by surprise too with the choise for this man.Not a man of the Curia,some Papal commissions yes,but nothing too wild and not in a spot where he could change anything...except in his diocese...He LIVED the Word,not just preaching it....He will address and tackle all the problems,given he has the time of life to do so.

Churches have been running empty faster then they ran full the past decades yes,but if he pulls through..again,given the time of life....he can make many to make a u-turn back in with the different approach,a human approach,the feel they can connect with him on a human scale,not hampered by anything but open souls only,openness and compassion and harmony..
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  #148  
Old 03-15-2013, 10:14 PM
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Not sure if this was posted already-

The Duke of Gloucester and Duchess of Gloucester to attend the Inaugural Mass for Pope Francis, 15 March:
The Duke of Gloucester to attend the Inaugural Mass for Pope Francis, 15 March
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  #149  
Old 03-15-2013, 10:17 PM
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Yes, but doesn't the Inauguration of the pope install him as the head of the Catholic church? I don't know if there will be some kind of "swear loyalty to the pope as the head of the Catholic church" by the congregation. but if there is something like that during the mass, I can understand if non-catholic royals would find it a bit difficult to do that, and to not participate in such a part could be seen as disrespectful by others at the mass. For example the members of the Swedish royal family (with the exception of in-laws) have to be "of the pure Lutheran faith" and I don't think that any kind of swearing loyalty to a Catholic pope, even if only symbolically, would be popular among the Swedish Lutheran clergy.
Catholics do not swear loyalty to the Pope during any Masses. We make a Profession of Faith in the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" during the Credo at each Mass, but no one who is not Catholic is ever coerced to join in.

For that matter, you don't have to join in even if you ARE Catholic.

As for the Swedish Royal Family and their strict adherence to Lutheranism, I am not so sure. Victoria made a point of receiving the Eucharist during Albert of Monaco's wedding and her father the King did the same at Otto of Austria's Requiem Mass. This was a clear disregard for Catholic teaching which restricts Protestants from approaching the Sacrament since their understanding of what it actually is differs sharply from what Catholics believe.

But neither Victoria or Carl Gustav seemed concerned about how that would go over with either the Swedish clergy or the people.


lucien, Jacknch,bluerengel and all the rest of you, thanks for the fascinating and insightful posts! I am learning more in this thread than I did at catechism!
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  #150  
Old 03-15-2013, 11:25 PM
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Anyone who rides the subway back and forth to work every day is a saint in my book.

Don't ask me how I know this.
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  #151  
Old 03-15-2013, 11:38 PM
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Hi GG...been there done that.

Yep, he is a saint!
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  #152  
Old 03-15-2013, 11:43 PM
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I am fascinated that members of the Swedish royal family took communion at Catholic services, even though they are Lutheran. This is not allowed in most Catholic churches.
However, in the Episcopal churches, all baptized Christians are invited to take communion, and others are invited to come forward for a blessing. This became a point of misery for the local Catholic priest, because the Episcopal priest allowed Catholic patients in the nursing home to receive communion, and they were glad to get it (I heard). Some Catholic priests might be less stringent. It seems that Victoria and her father must have been making a statement about hoping for reunion among denominations. Or else were ignorant of the rules, which is not likely.
I believe Maxima is outside the Catholic church rules if she is not raising her children Catholic. Same as Princess Michael.
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  #153  
Old 03-16-2013, 12:21 AM
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Mariel, if I remember correctly both Maxima and Princess Michael received dispensations from the Holy See to raise their children as Protestants. It's very rare that such a dispensation is given, but neither of them violated Church law. Both are still Catholics in good standing.

What annoyed me about Victoria and her father receiving the Eucharist is that a baptized Catholic has to meet certain requirements before approaching the Sacrament(completely free from mortal sin, if necessary go to confession first) yet two Protestants who don't even accept Catholic teaching on this most sacred of all sacraments just mosey on up?? Bill Clinton caused quite an uproar during his Presidency when he did this...and the last two Popes have specifically called it an "abuse".

I prefer to think that the Swedish royals were simply unaware of the Catholic position on this, rather than that they were deliberately disrespectful.
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  #154  
Old 03-16-2013, 02:29 AM
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Mariel, if I remember correctly both Maxima and Princess Michael received dispensations from the Holy See to raise their children as Protestants. It's very rare that such a dispensation is given, but neither of them violated Church law. Both are still Catholics in good standing.

What annoyed me about Victoria and her father receiving the Eucharist is that a baptized Catholic has to meet certain requirements before approaching the Sacrament(completely free from mortal sin, if necessary go to confession first) yet two Protestants who don't even accept Catholic teaching on this most sacred of all sacraments just mosey on up?? Bill Clinton caused quite an uproar during his Presidency when he did this...and the last two Popes have specifically called it an "abuse".

I prefer to think that the Swedish royals were simply unaware of the Catholic position on this, rather than that they were deliberately disrespectful.

Hi, Moonmaiden,
Protestants do not see this is break of the sacrament, as it is allowed in Protestantism, that ALL CRISTIANS, whether they are catholic or protestant, are able to receive the Eucharist.
Bye Bine
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  #155  
Old 03-16-2013, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Mariel, if I remember correctly both Maxima and Princess Michael received dispensations from the Holy See to raise their children as Protestants. It's very rare that such a dispensation is given, but neither of them violated Church law. Both are still Catholics in good standing.

What annoyed me about Victoria and her father receiving the Eucharist is that a baptized Catholic has to meet certain requirements before approaching the Sacrament(completely free from mortal sin, if necessary go to confession first) yet two Protestants who don't even accept Catholic teaching on this most sacred of all sacraments just mosey on up?? Bill Clinton caused quite an uproar during his Presidency when he did this...and the last two Popes have specifically called it an "abuse".

I prefer to think that the Swedish royals were simply unaware of the Catholic position on this, rather than that they were deliberately disrespectful.
Somehow I can´t believe that Vitoria was unaware that the Catholic eucharestie is only for Roman Catholics(she is always very well-prepared and knowledgeable),however her father might have done it because he didn´t want to stand out and join the crowd. The Habsburg family in Austria has always been overly attached to the Roman Catholic church-the Catholic faith was important and no one could have married into the family without converting. (Maybe there were exceptions,but the figureheads were all strictly Catholic!)
Maria Theresia even founded a special unit of policemen (Sittenwache) who were punishing sins thatwere condemned in the bible...however,they soon had too many people who were caught for commiting Catholic sins that she could not upkeep her strict regime and had do understand that she could only punish the worldly crimes

Today we have a movement called "Ökumene" that is celebrating the uniting ties between Catholic,Lutheran and other religions derived from the holy bible because they all have the same foundation and believe in the same god.Maybe CP Victoria is following that belief and wants to stretch out her hand to other religions of the book.IMO it was a nice gesture and I don´t believe that anyone is free of sins but just the same everyone is entitled to receive the blessings of god
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  #156  
Old 03-16-2013, 03:59 AM
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Dont you feel sending The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester to such a high profile international event with all Heads of States and heirs to the throne, a bit too much undermining? Its not the coronation of King of Tonga, afterall..
And inseating order and protocol, they would be pushed to some corner of the Church..
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  #157  
Old 03-16-2013, 04:13 AM
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Dont you feel sending The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester to such a high profile international event with all Heads of States and heirs to the throne, a bit too much undermining? Its not the coronation of King of Tonga, afterall..
And inseating order and protocol, they would be pushed to some corner of the Church..
No they won't...It's at the St.Peter Square,not inside the Basilica and they will be seated 2nd row as non -heads of State and non-Reigning Royals will.They do however represent HM The Queen Elizabeth,and therefore will be seated and treated accordingly.
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  #158  
Old 03-16-2013, 05:22 AM
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Dont you feel sending The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester to such a high profile international event with all Heads of States and heirs to the throne, a bit too much undermining?
Which other heads of state and heirs are going that aren't Catholic?
Maxima and the Luxembourgs are going because they are Catholic. Yes Maxima is to be Queen of a Protestant country but it's quite lucky for her that she can get around going.
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  #159  
Old 03-16-2013, 05:25 AM
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I would think it to be a bit inappropriate for a Protestant head of state (especially one, such as Queen Elizabeth, where being Catholic is essentially prohibited in the line of succession) to attend the ascension/inauguration of a new pope.
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:35 AM
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I would think it to be a bit inappropriate for a Protestant head of state (especially one, such as Queen Elizabeth, where being Catholic is essentially prohibited in the line of succession) to attend the ascension/inauguration of a new pope.
Current illness taken into account you wouldn't see Elizabeth going. Knowing that Charles attended JPII funeral and Philip attended Benedicts inaugural mass without fuss, sending Charles wouldn't have been too bad.
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