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  #101  
Old 03-14-2013, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess View Post

I think that maybe Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor will attend, since they married in the Vatican and their sons were both christened there. I'd also like to see the Duchess of Kent attend, and maybe Princess Michael. Does anyone know if any British Royals attended the inauguration of Pope Benedict?
Prince Philip attended his inaugural mass but I see no reason why anyone would attend personally. Charles went to John Paul's funeral however, I imagine out of respect.
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The Prince of Wales will probably represent the BRF, he did at the funeral of Pope JohnPaul II as it meant postponing his own wedding. He didn't attend Benedict's inaugural mass (i'm guessing Charles and Camill were on honeymoon) but the Duke of Edinburgh did.
Charles chose to postpone to wedding so he could attend the funeral. He could have chose not to and just competed with air ratings on television. I imagine it was out of respect and duty rather than liking the guy. There seems to be no personal connection between high ranking members of the BRF and the Catholic Pope, they'll probably send the Kents perhaps.
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  #102  
Old 03-14-2013, 06:13 PM
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I think Charles will likely attend, I don't see why they would send Philip last time and not someone senior this time. Given that Charles went to Pope John Paul IIs funeral I'd imagine he was probably 'meant' to attend Benedict's inaugural mass but was excused as he was on honeymoon so Philip went instead. I'm just guessing based on what we saw unfold last time. Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor will possibly attend as prominent/well know Catholics likewise for Princess Michael but one of the Queen's children will, I think, be the official representative.

On another note I'm a little surprised that Queen Sofia of Spain isn't attending, she always looks very 'royal' to me lol!
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  #103  
Old 03-14-2013, 06:16 PM
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I think that maybe Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor will attend, since they married in the Vatican and their sons were both christened there. I'd also like to see the Duchess of Kent attend, and maybe Princess Michael. Does anyone know if any British Royals attended the inauguration of Pope Benedict?
I maybe wrong but didn't The Duke of Edinburgh attend the Inauguration of Pope Benedict XVI?
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  #104  
Old 03-14-2013, 06:37 PM
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24th April 2005

BUCKINGHAM PALACE:
The Queen was represented by The Duke of Edinburgh this morning at the Inaugural Mass for Pope Benedict XVI which was held in St. Peter's Square, Vatican City, Rome, Italy.
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  #105  
Old 03-14-2013, 06:43 PM
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What part of my post was disrespectful to the Pope? I merely stated that I think that he (and the Catholic Church in general - I'm raised a Catholic myself) has the wrong opinions and views on a lot of things. I don't think he's a bad person, I don't know him personally so wherefrom should I know, I'm sure he's a nice person (as I also mentioned in my post), personally I just think he (and the rest of the Church, has the wrong views on a lot of things
It's one thing to disagree with Catholic teachings, but to declare that someone's opinions and views are wrong because they don't align with yours is disrespectful.

In my opinion you were being disrespectful to the pope. You don't agree, fine, but that doesn't mean I am wrong either. Again, opinions are not wrong.
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  #106  
Old 03-14-2013, 07:15 PM
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...opinions are not wrong.
In MY opinion it's the wrong views, to ME it's wrong that my gay brother isn't allowed to marry his boyfriend like I'm able to marry a future husband, to ME it's wrong in every way that because someone's homosexual they're not allowed to have the same human rights as someone heterosexual. I could go on, but this is a discussion for another thread, I think You may be butthurt all you want because someone don't agree with you and some point of views in Catholicism (mind you, that I'm still a member of the Catholic Church, and I'm perfectly content being a "liberal" Catholic), because to ME it's not being offensive to disagree.

I'm not being all over you or any other religious person, saying "Stop it! I think this is wrong and therefore you MUST think it's wrong too". What I am saying is that I think that that part of Catholicism is wrong, people don't have to agree with me, but I use my freedom of speech to say on a public forum that as sweet and kind as this new Pope probably is, I think he's completely wrong on subjects such as abortion and gay peoples right to marry etc., but I also know that he's not "allowed" to publicly say anything else than that he's against it.

In other words, I'm not forcing anyone to share my opinions, however I do use my liberty to state aforementioned opinion, and I still don't see what's the offense in saying that I think that some of his opinions are wrong.
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  #107  
Old 03-14-2013, 08:56 PM
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I read that one of the reasons Charles postponed his own wedding was that many of his guests including then-Prime Minister Blair, had indicated that they would be attending the Papal funeral rites instead. That, combined with the almost universal respect and affection for JP II might have convinced Charles to attend as well.

I remember feeling rather sad for Charles/Camilla and the unfortunate timing of it all.
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  #108  
Old 03-14-2013, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Queen Margrethe and Prince Henrik attended Pope John Paul II's funeral, in 2005. Queen Sonja, King Carl Gustaf and Queen Silvia were also presented.

The Pope is a Head of State, so, they'll be attending not only a Catholic ceriminoy, but the Inauguration of a foreing Head of State. Religion plays no role on those things.
There is a difference between attending a funeral and attending an inaugural mass, where the focal point is on the Catholic faith, which is why many members of the Catholic royal families will attend.

As for Inauguration ceremonies, I have the impression that major royals (kings and queens) usually don't attend the inauguration ceremony of other royal head of state.
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  #109  
Old 03-14-2013, 09:24 PM
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I have always thought that one should never mix religion and sex. As such, when considering the idea of same-sex marriages, ones thoughts should be focused upon the union of love between one person and another rather than make assumptions (usually incorrect assumptions in my opinion) about what people might or might not do in bed. The Catholic Church (and I am sure other religions and churches too) already imposes itself upon how a man and a woman should have sex and what they should and should not do, and so it is no surprise that familiarity between same-sex couples is at the forefront of its mind when considering same-sex marriage. It is ironic that this mind-set is very much at odds with the way in which the sex scandals have been dealt with in the past -i.e. pretend it doesn't happen and move the perpetrator elsewhere. If only the Church would pretend sex doesn't happen and concentrate solely on the love aspect!
My partner and I (we had a civil partnership a few years back) discussed the issue of religious marriage this evening. Neither of us are religious, but we were both very much moved by the election of Pope Francis and we both agreed that for us he is a global symbol of sprituality - no other religious person has had that effect on either one of us. But it is a distressing thought that he would disapprove of our union, even though in the technical sense neither of us has committed a biblical sin.
Nonetheless, if one is guided by what it says in the bible and the various doctrines and rules of the church, I can't see how Pope Francis could have any other view. So from that perspective, I don't think his views are wrong, but nor are my views wrong for not wanting to be left on the shelf for the rest of my life alone and without love.
There has to be some way in which it can be acceptable to the church for there to be same-sex unions/marriages. Whatever way it is, I think that the institution of same-sex marriage (religious ones) will have to be a distinct institution in its own right and of no less importance or significance for society because I think by their very nature the two forms of union (straight and gay marriage) are distinctly different.
But this is not a debate about the rights and wrongs of difference forms of marriage and I apologise if anything I have said is controversial.
The Catholic Church is a vastly huge institution with many, many issues to resolve within itself on top of the day to day business of being a church to millions of people. But I really do think Pope Francis is going to be a force of good for people around the world. Someone on BBC News said that they had felt a positive change as soon as he spoke when he greeted the crowds and that it was simply based on how he spoke and what he said.
Can't wait for Tuesday!
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  #110  
Old 03-14-2013, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post

I remember feeling rather sad for Charles/Camilla and the unfortunate timing of it all.
I remember having had that feeling too.

JPII funerals were something different to this mass, IMO, mainly because of the great admiration towards him.

Attending an inauguration, of a Pope, President or King, may be interpreted as an acceptance or agreement with his ideas, but people usually become more tolerant with funerals (and with dead people, in general )
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  #111  
Old 03-14-2013, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
The Catholic Church is a vastly huge institution with many, many issues to resolve within itself on top of the day to day business of being a church to millions of people. But I really do think Pope Francis is going to be a force of good for people around the world. Someone on BBC News said that they had felt a positive change as soon as he spoke when he greeted the crowds and that it was simply based on how he spoke and what he said.
Can't wait for Tuesday!
Very nice comment.
I totally support same-sex marriages, and I´m against the Catholic Church´s official position on that matter, but I agree it isn´t an easy change for them to do, for many reasons.
I would have liked a Pope who could change that and many other "doctrinal" points, but I´m realistic: that isn´t going to happen tomorrow.
I like the new Pope because, although he represents the same doctrine as always, his behaviour, his attitude and his way of seeing the Church are a change by themselves. We can´t suddenly change everything, but this man can introduce the Church in the "changes" way.
Same-sex marriages into the Catholic Church, or female priestes, or use of contraceptives, may be impossible to think now, but perhaps they will be in 50-60 years.
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  #112  
Old 03-14-2013, 09:48 PM
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Well, I'm young, so I hope to see the first official Popess.
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  #113  
Old 03-14-2013, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Well, I'm young, so I hope to see the first official Popess.
I´m young too, I hope (more a wish than an objetive though) to see the first female priestes...But I´m more realistic about a Popess.

We´re talking about the same institution that has taken 500 years to choose a jesuist as pope, since the Society was established
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  #114  
Old 03-14-2013, 09:55 PM
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I´m young too, I hope (more a wish than an objetive though) to see the first female priestes...But I´m more realistic about a Popess.

We´re talking about the same institution that has taken 500 years to choose a jesuist as pope, since the Society was established
Yeah, the priestesses are for sure.

Maybe a Popess is too much for my lifetime. Maybe my grandchildren will have this honor.
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  #115  
Old 03-14-2013, 10:45 PM
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The first female pope would not be a Popess. In Italian, "pope" is Papa", right? So she would be a Mama!
In my Episcopal congregation, as in many New Mexico congregations, the female priests are called "Mother". I think this is just right.
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  #116  
Old 03-14-2013, 10:50 PM
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There are some things that a pontiff can change(i. e. rules regarding celibacy for the clergy) and things that they cannot and will not ever change-such as the teaching on the very nature of the sacrament of Matrimony and why it was created. One is a discipline that was imposed by man, the other is not.

I think sometimes people get the two confused and think a pope can change any teaching that the world or he himself doesn't like. He cannot. It's also not as if Catholic Church is a democracy that is sensitive to poll results, for example like the White House is. The Church is not a democracy and has never pretended to be one. For example even if 99.9% of Catholics think the Church should alter it's teaching on abortion, it wouldn't matter...it'll never happen.

The official teachings of the Church on matters of Faith come from two sources, Scripture and Sacred Tradition-meaning what has been passed down to us from the Apostles either orally or in writing.

Those are things that no Pope is free to ever change.
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  #117  
Old 03-14-2013, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ANNIE_S View Post
Very nice comment.
I totally support same-sex marriages, and I´m against the Catholic Church´s official position on that matter, but I agree it isn´t an easy change for them to do, for many reasons.
I would have liked a Pope who could change that and many other "doctrinal" points, but I´m realistic: that isn´t going to happen tomorrow.
I like the new Pope because, although he represents the same doctrine as always, his behaviour, his attitude and his way of seeing the Church are a change by themselves. We can´t suddenly change everything, but this man can introduce the Church in the "changes" way.
Same-sex marriages into the Catholic Church, or female priestes, or use of contraceptives, may be impossible to think now, but perhaps they will be in 50-60 years.
Many thanks. It's a controversial issue and really needs to be sensitively thought about from both perspectives. Obviously it is relatively easy to institute same-sex marriage in the secular world and enshrine it in law because society outside religion changes, progresses and developes as time goes on - there are no written rules or doctrines or specific beliefs as such when confronted with social issues. But within a religious context, in order for same-sex marriages to be allowed/approved of, there has to be some kind of religious/sacred foundation or basis that the church can reference (for instance from within the bible) in order to institute a same-sex union and for the institution of same-sex marriage to have a firm religious foundation. In other words, same-sex marriages cannot be approved of in law and then the church told it must approve of it too without the church at least being able to properly conduct a same-sex marriage service under the eyes of God and with full and equal religious meaning. At the end of the day, if my partner and me walked down the aisle, I'd want the vicar or priest to approve of it and I wouldn't want him or her to have been forced into conducting the ceremony under threat of the law! Obviously in the case of the Catholic Church it IS the law!
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  #118  
Old 03-15-2013, 12:09 AM
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There is a difference between attending a funeral and attending an inaugural mass, where the focal point is on the Catholic faith, which is why many members of the Catholic royal families will attend.

As for Inauguration ceremonies, I have the impression that major royals (kings and queens) usually don't attend the inauguration ceremony of other royal head of state.
The focal point is on the Catholic faith at ANY celebration of Mass...whether it's for a funeral, a wedding, or a Pope's Inaugural.

The foreign Royals who attend ceremonies of a Head of State do so for reasons of protocol, respect and occasionally even friendship. It rarely has anything to do with whether or not they are members of the Head of State's religion.

Representatives of Buddhism, Islam, Orthodoxy and various Protestant denominations were at the Installation Masses for Popes JP I and II as well as Benedict XVI, but as far as Royal representation I would not be surprised if it's mostly Catholic Royals who are there in person, with the Protestant Royal houses sending mostly their ambassadors. I guess we'll just have to see.

VP Joseph Biden, a Roman Catholic, will represent President Obama NBC News announced today.
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  #119  
Old 03-15-2013, 01:22 AM
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I read that one of the reasons Charles postponed his own wedding was that many of his guests including then-Prime Minister Blair, had indicated that they would be attending the Papal funeral rites instead. That, combined with the almost universal respect and affection for JP II might have convinced Charles to attend as well.

I remember feeling rather sad for Charles/Camilla and the unfortunate timing of it all.
At the time it was THE reason Prince Charles postponed his wedding,to attend the funeral of HH Pope John Paul II..

I saw a post I want to address just very briefly,as it doesn't need more then that.Someone complained the church didn't allow her brother to marry in church.

Why would anyone want all of a group that already has all it wants?Being gay isn't anything special,being married as a gay couple,the town hall is always there and always open.But in general for gays to marry in church?Truly...a tad too far.Why?To swap their towels of the bathhouses for a white veil and pearls while cruising the vicar?..The very idea is having the effect of a drag queen race on me:laughter!Mind you,I am gay,know the chores and the way of thinking,the ins- and outs...the works,been there done that or seen it all happening.But to accept a gay relationship as equal to str8 is one thing,to have that in law is great too,it prevents the in-laws from taking it all in case of a fatality -....as happened so often in the years of the AIDS holocaust-...well as taxes are more sympha.....,we have here,but really,to walk down the aisle with all the trimmings...dear oh dear,the travesty.I see it as something to provoke,some screaming bathhouse queens who love to be pretty in pink..
It is just some who "want" that,demand that..while tapping their high heels on the pavement screaming their lungs out....The vast majority doesn't need nor want anything more then a paper from the town hall and a parking lot to continue the cruising...sorry..that's the reality in many if not most cases...some turned into little-,other into professional whiners.That's all.

No,cathedrals have seen many different events over the centuries,but will never witness this.

The present Pontiff however doesn't as much have the wrong views,no,he teaches by the official guidelines of the church,BUT...with a immensely human touch.He is Pope for all,and all includes gays.They are,we are,nothing special,there are tens of millions of us,everywhere,it's a every family has one sort of thing...and should be happy with them,they add some colour to life...well,most...

There's this wonderfull picture running on the web of the present Pontiff washing and kissing the feet of AIDS patients in Buenes Aires about ten years ago.An immensely human touch in a country still backward in the acceptation of these HIV/AIDS patients.I know,one of my best friends fled Argentina about 25 years ago because of the stigma of him having HIV...He later developed AIDS,and 12 years ago decided to go home,to his mom,and Jorge died in Buenes Aires,But I tell you,he too would have been so overjoyed and proud to see this man on top of the church today.A total new approach,back to the roots,no interference with wordly matters ,changes...little by little...It is a new age,a new dawn a new elan,and as the Pontiff said yesterday;"We have to build up the Church all over again,from the beginning,no more hiding by the church".These words hold so many changes,let us wait and grant this man the time and respect due to a great reformer which no doubt he will turn out to be.Let us rest the differences and look ahead in a broader sense,broader then a small human mind sometimes...or too often...does.He deserves that.We deserve that.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:50 AM
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Thank you for an incredibly honest and insightful post Lucien. Its only been a few days that a humble cardinal from Argentina has become Pope to millions of Catholics and a world figure to the rest of the world watching, but I think we've seen one thing quite clearly with this man. He will lead not by well written speeches or how visible he is to his congregation by from what I've seen and read so far, he will lead by example.

One of the things that happen after the vote is over is that the new Pope changes into papal robes and a platform with a white chair is brought out for him to sit on and receive each one of the cardinals. Francis refused the chair and walked among the cardinals as one of them. No special car for him either to go to dinner. He took the bus like the rest of the conclave of cardinals. Inside The Conclave: Extra Omnes To Habemus Papam

Perhaps there is quite a bit that is wrong, perhaps corrupt and even antiquidated about the teachings of the Catholic Church and things that need to be addressed and changed and perhaps even abolished but that will not happen overnight and cannot be done by any one man. What I do think can and will be done by this one man, Pope Francis, is put more emphasis on what should be the focus of the Church. Its people. He will do that by example. Its been stated that yes, he is against gay marriage in the Church but he's also added that they should be respected.

This man surely lives the Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi.
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