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  #581  
Old 12-21-2013, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Catholics ARE Christian. The only difference between Catholic and non-Catholic Christians is the denomination.

I consider myself orthodox and conservative in religious matters, but moderate to liberal on social/political issues such as taxes and civil rights...in other words a "John Paul II Catholic".

The Supreme Pontiff is not a Marxist despite what that idiot Limbaugh and others say. His job-his duty-is to proclaim the Gospel. Anyone familiar with Scripture can see that nothing Francis has said so far is contrary to it...Christ was neither socialist nor capitalist.
I understand that all catholics are christians, but all christians are not catholics. La Rae seemed to think I was referencing catholics, when I was referring to 'Christians' in a broader sense like the Sarah Palin denomination..blanking on the name...the ones that 'speak in tongues'.

Also, can someone explain what 'Orthodox Catholic' is? Is that like Mel Gibson? Is this the sect that Francis is cracking down on? I was raised just regular catholic. While I have not been in some time but I disticntly remember the Apostles' Creed talking about 'one holy catholic church'.
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  #582  
Old 12-21-2013, 05:03 PM
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Pope Francis will greet children hospitalized at the Vatican's Bambino Gesù

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  #583  
Old 12-21-2013, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
I understand that all catholics are christians, but all christians are not catholics. La Rae seemed to think I was referencing catholics, when I was referring to 'Christians' in a broader sense like the Sarah Palin denomination..blanking on the name...the ones that 'speak in tongues'.

Also, can someone explain what 'Orthodox Catholic' is? Is that like Mel Gibson? Is this the sect that Francis is cracking down on? I was raised just regular catholic. While I have not been in some time but I disticntly remember the Apostles' Creed talking about 'one holy catholic church'.

I think you are looking for the term Evangelical to describe the type of Christianity Sarah Palin adheres to. She belongs (IIRC) a Pentacostal group.

Orthodox means a faithful Catholic that does not dissent to Church teachings that are doctrine/doctrinal or de fide etc...things like the Divinity of Christ, the Trinity, Marian Dogma etc.

Heterodox refers to Catholics who are disobedient and dissent from Church teaching ..like those who support gay marriage or women's ordination.

There are many things Catholics can disagree about and not be disobedient...but there are some things that are required belief.

Mel Gibson *appears* to be a Heterodox Catholic. He is considered (self described) Tradtional Catholic. He is most likely in schism from the Church based on his actions and statements in the past.

I am unaware of the pope cracking down on anyone as of yet...except those who are against Church teaching, whatever their leanings.

LaRae
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  #584  
Old 12-21-2013, 07:45 PM
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This one
Pope Francis Crackdown On Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate For Latin Mass Alarms Traditionalists

And yes, Pentacostal was the word I was blanking on, thanks!
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  #585  
Old 12-21-2013, 08:23 PM
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Leave it to the media to sensationalize and blow up something that isn't anything. There's nothing revolutionary about pope Francis. He's no different than BXVI or JPII in his orthodoxy. Latin Mass is still being celebrated world wide.

Another article which will help clarify huffpo's The background for Vatican intervention in the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate : News Headlines - Catholic Culture

The Vatican intervened only after several respected FFI members appealed to Rome for help, citing difficulties with the leadership of the order. A subsequent apostolic visitation confirmed the troubles.

It's not like the pope just went in and decided to 'crackdown' on anyone...he (the vatican) was asked to intervene.

LaRae
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  #586  
Old 12-21-2013, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Conservative/Liberal are political terms. When talking about Catholics and their views it's better to say orthodox/heterdox to get a true understanding.

I am orthodox and I know many orthodox Catholics and they most certainly do not 'loathe' pope Francis. There are schismatic groups and even (of course) heterdox Catholics who I am sure do oppose the pope (and previous popes for varying reasons).

Please do not make a comment about 'conservative' (aka orthodox) Catholics using a broad brush. We do no loathe the pope.

Rush Limbaugh has no bearing on anything to do with the pope or the Church. I could care less what he thinks and I am a conservative voter when it comes to political issues.


LaRae
Thanks for making a distinction between labels and terminology used within political circles and tendencies within the church and the faithful (or not). Most of the times these are used by people to create confusion.
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  #587  
Old 12-21-2013, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Leave it to the media to sensationalize and blow up something that isn't anything. There's nothing revolutionary about pope Francis. He's no different than BXVI or JPII in his orthodoxy. Latin Mass is still being celebrated world wide.

Another article which will help clarify huffpo's The background for Vatican intervention in the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate : News Headlines - Catholic Culture

The Vatican intervened only after several respected FFI members appealed to Rome for help, citing difficulties with the leadership of the order. A subsequent apostolic visitation confirmed the troubles.

It's not like the pope just went in and decided to 'crackdown' on anyone...he (the vatican) was asked to intervene.

LaRae
He's not different in his doctrine, but he's massively different in how he's chosen to focus the church and it's been a breath of fresh air and a lovely thing to witness.

I am a huge fan of this pope. I did not at all feel that way about Pope Benedict.
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  #588  
Old 12-21-2013, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Danishla View Post
Thanks for making a distinction between labels and terminology used within political circles and tendencies within the church and the faithful (or not). Most of the times these are used by people to create confusion.
Welcome :) I agree...using political terms causes confusion when talking about the people/Church.


LaRae
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  #589  
Old 12-21-2013, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
He's not different in his doctrine, but he's massively different in how he's chosen to focus the church and it's been a breath of fresh air and a lovely thing to witness.

I am a huge fan of this pope. I did not at all feel that way about Pope Benedict.

Yes he has a very different style and he was fairly unknown to most lay people outside his country. People have to figure him out still. He makes those who have ties/leanings toward Traditional rites a bit nervous about some things and that he has a Jesuit background doesn't help considering their history over the past 100 years or so.

I love BXVI. He's a teacher, anything he wrote was fairly easy to understand for the average person. I can't think of anything I don't like about him or his style.

Personally I think once certain people (mostly the media and various activists etc) figure out he really is not a supporter of gay marriage, women clergy, birth control (insert whatever other heterodox view) they will lose their admiration and turn on him.


LaRae
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  #590  
Old 12-21-2013, 11:53 PM
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I think the Jesuits are the best part of the Catholic church. They're the most educated, the most innovative, and they have a long and rich tradition of teaching and of serving the poor and sick.

I think this Pope's style of focusing on compassion and kindness and his efforts to refocus the church on its primary purpose of loving and serving the poor and downtrodden will continue to win him admiration for a long time to come.
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  #591  
Old 12-22-2013, 07:53 AM
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Pope Francis is the newest draw at Rome's Wax Museum


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  #592  
Old 12-22-2013, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
He's not different in his doctrine, but he's massively different in how he's chosen to focus the church and it's been a breath of fresh air and a lovely thing to witness.

I am a huge fan of this pope. I did not at all feel that way about Pope Benedict.
I think I like him mostly because of his simplicity. Its not a matter of setting down a papal bull that we should all honor each human as a reflection of the divine but rather his simple, random acts that prove that this is what he himself believes and shows the world by example. His doctrine may be the same towards same sex marriages but he'll honor and respect the divine in a person that chooses that lifestyle. He may be able to, as Pope, live in grandeur and comfort but he chooses to be one of the many rather than one that is above. This is a simple man that thought enough of a newsstand owner's well being and strove to help out just a little bit by returning a month's worth of rubber bands.

I don't see this Pope as one that will rewrite the doctrine of the Church nor will he be a "crackdown" police Pope but he will be a Pope that shows the world by example the meaning of the beautiful Prayer of St. Francis.

Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace;
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is error, truth;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
And where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master, Grant that I may not so much seek
To be consoled as to console;
To be understood as to understand;
To be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Simple things I think we all should strive for each day in our lives regardless of who we are or what we believe.

Blessed Holidays all....
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  #593  
Old 12-22-2013, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
I think the Jesuits are the best part of the Catholic church. They're the most educated, the most innovative, and they have a long and rich tradition of teaching and of serving the poor and sick.

I think this Pope's style of focusing on compassion and kindness and his efforts to refocus the church on its primary purpose of loving and serving the poor and downtrodden will continue to win him admiration for a long time to come.
Not sure what century you are referring to but the Jesuits are not the most educated...nowdays many orders have highly educated clergy among them.

The problem with education (at times) is the misuse of it. When one uses that education to subvert and/or openly dissent/teach dissent to those in your care that is not a good thing.

There are a few good orthodox Jesuits out there but sadly many of them have lost their way.


LaRae
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  #594  
Old 12-22-2013, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
I understand that all catholics are christians, but all christians are not catholics. La Rae seemed to think I was referencing catholics, when I was referring to 'Christians' in a broader sense like the Sarah Palin denomination..blanking on the name...the ones that 'speak in tongues'.

Also, can someone explain what 'Orthodox Catholic' is? Is that like Mel Gibson? Is this the sect that Francis is cracking down on? I was raised just regular catholic. While I have not been in some time but I disticntly remember the Apostles' Creed talking about 'one holy catholic church'.

Hi scooter, by "orthodox Catholic" I definitely don't mean that I am the type of Catholic Mel Gibson is. Gibson is in fact a member of a breakaway sect of Catholics who reject Vatican II and only accept old Tridentine Latin Mass as legitimate. They believe that the last true pope was Pius XII. They are called the Society of St. Pius X, and they are outside of the mainstream Church.

By "orthodox Catholic" I simply mean that I am a believing, practicing member of the Catholic Church. I accept it's Sacraments and respect it's teachings...even the ones that I don't necessarily agree with(artificial birth control).

Sadly, I also agree with La Rae's estimation of the Jesuits. Once they were known as "the Pope's Army" because of their fidelity to the pontiff and the Church. But with a few exceptions, I think they have lost their way and become full of intellectual pride and arrogance. The late Paul VI once described the Order as having "sinister" elements. It's very sad.

For the record, I do not think Pope Francis is a typical Jesuit at all. He is both learned and humble, and he obviously loves Christ and the Church.

John Paul II would not have elevated him to the College of Cardinals otherwise. He was very much loved by John Paul II, and La Rae is right. When the media and certain elements on the Left figure out that on matters of traditional Catholic doctrine he is as orthodox as JPII, the love affair will end rather quickly.

I also think it's very significant that despite the new Pope's personal popularity it has not translated in a return to Church for disaffected Catholics according to recent polls. It's as I always suspected...apostates don't return to the Church and the Sacraments because of who the Pope is, or because they find him warm and appealing.

They leave the Church because they lose their faith, and who the Pope is does not matter.
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  #595  
Old 12-22-2013, 08:57 PM
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Not sure what century you are referring to but the Jesuits are not the most educated...nowdays many orders have highly educated clergy among them.

The problem with education (at times) is the misuse of it. When one uses that education to subvert and/or openly dissent/teach dissent to those in your care that is not a good thing.

There are a few good orthodox Jesuits out there but sadly many of them have lost their way.


LaRae



In my opinion, rigid adherence to a set of beliefs solely for the sake of it is not a particularly positive way to approach spirituality, and the Jesuits have always been wonderful at making sure what they practice is workable and serviceable and that they're not just doing empty gestures for the sake of the gestures themselves.

And by most highly educated, I meant they are the order that most values education. They're the learners and the teachers. Many of theost interesting people I know are Jesuits or have received a Jesuit education.

I'm so pleased to see a Jesuit pope. It needed to happen.
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  #596  
Old 12-22-2013, 09:18 PM
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In my opinion, rigid adherence to a set of beliefs solely for the sake of it is not a particularly positive way to approach spirituality, and the Jesuits have always been wonderful at making sure what they practice is workable and serviceable and that they're not just doing empty gestures for the sake of the gestures themselves.

And by most highly educated, I meant they are the order that most values education. They're the learners and the teachers. Many of theost interesting people I know are Jesuits or have received a Jesuit education.

I'm so pleased to see a Jesuit pope. It needed to happen.

Yes well of course you would be feel this way given your positions on various issues mentioned in the past.

It's a poor teacher that teaches against what he professes to (vows to) be obedient too. It's rather dishonest to pretend to be something or believe in something you don't.


LaRae
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  #597  
Old 12-22-2013, 09:22 PM
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Hi scooter, by "orthodox Catholic" I definitely don't mean that I am the type of Catholic Mel Gibson is. Gibson is in fact a member of a breakaway sect of Catholics who reject Vatican II and only accept old Tridentine Latin Mass as legitimate. They believe that the last true pope was Pius XII. They are called the Society of St. Pius X, and they are outside of the mainstream Church.

By "orthodox Catholic" I simply mean that I am a believing, practicing member of the Catholic Church. I accept it's Sacraments and respect it's teachings...even the ones that I don't necessarily agree with(artificial birth control).

Sadly, I also agree with La Rae's estimation of the Jesuits. Once they were known as "the Pope's Army" because of their fidelity to the pontiff and the Church. But with a few exceptions, I think they have lost their way and become full of intellectual pride and arrogance. The late Paul VI once described the Order as having "sinister" elements. It's very sad.

For the record, I do not think Pope Francis is a typical Jesuit at all. He is both learned and humble, and he obviously loves Christ and the Church.

John Paul II would not have elevated him to the College of Cardinals otherwise. He was very much loved by John Paul II, and La Rae is right. When the media and certain elements on the Left figure out that on matters of traditional Catholic doctrine he is as orthodox as JPII, the love affair will end rather quickly.

I also think it's very significant that despite the new Pope's personal popularity it has not translated in a return to Church for disaffected Catholics according to recent polls. It's as I always suspected...apostates don't return to the Church and the Sacraments because of who the Pope is, or because they find him warm and appealing.

They leave the Church because they lose their faith, and who the Pope is does not matter.

The last I knew Gibson actually has gone off and done his own thing, he has a private chapel at his residence and has an independent priest that serves there. He has never really belonged to SSPX....and just a minor correction, SSPX does believe in the succession of the pope ...you are thinking of SSPV which is what Gibson's father belongs to and what Mel was raised in.

SSPX is considered to be an internal matter in the Church. SSPV is in open schism from the Church.

There's a reason the Jesuits were a suppressed order at one point and quite frankly I wonder at times if it wouldn't be a good idea to do it again.

LaRae
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  #598  
Old 12-22-2013, 09:54 PM
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Yes well of course you would be feel this way given your positions on various issues mentioned in the past.

It's a poor teacher that teaches against what he professes to (vows to) be obedient too. It's rather dishonest to pretend to be something or believe in something you don't.


LaRae
That's a rather black and white way of looking at the world, in my opinion. An ideology that doesn't allow for any change in perspective, evolution of thought or flexibility is not a workable philosophy.

I know we differ greatly here, and you're welcome to your perspective, but I for one think that Pope Francis is redeeming the church in the eyes of the world, and I am please and proud to see the wonderful work he's doing.

I hope very much that his reforms continue for a long time to come.
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Old 12-22-2013, 10:11 PM
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The last I knew Gibson actually has gone off and done his own thing, he has a private chapel at his residence and has an independent priest that serves there. He has never really belonged to SSPX....and just a minor correction, SSPX does believe in the succession of the pope ...you are thinking of SSPV which is what Gibson's father belongs to and what Mel was raised in.

SSPX is considered to be an internal matter in the Church. SSPV is in open schism from the Church.

There's a reason the Jesuits were a suppressed order at one point and quite frankly I wonder at times if it wouldn't be a good idea to do it again.

LaRae
I thank you for the clarification. I have a friend who is a member of one of the two and has(unsuccessfully) been trying to get me to go to church with him for over a decade. I will check with him next time he calls to find out which one he is a member of.

For the record I like the new pope, but I also liked and admired Benedict XVI very much. Unlike JPII, one does not need to be a saint, a religious mystic or an intellectual genius to understand his writings, which is fortunate as I am very far from any one of those.
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Old 12-22-2013, 10:51 PM
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That's a rather black and white way of looking at the world, in my opinion. An ideology that doesn't allow for any change in perspective, evolution of thought or flexibility is not a workable philosophy.

I know we differ greatly here, and you're welcome to your perspective, but I for one think that Pope Francis is redeeming the church in the eyes of the world, and I am please and proud to see the wonderful work he's doing.

I hope very much that his reforms continue for a long time to come.
He's not reforming anything...I don't know why people think this...he's not changed anything in the way of discipline, dogma, doctrine etc. He has a different way of doing things but he's not a 'reformer'. JPII and BXVI did things in their own way, things needed for their time but pope Francis isn't doing anything they didn't do.

He's redeeming things in the eyes of the world simply because he's the new flavor of the month. When he crosses them on one of their agendas they will be quick enough to turn on him. The world, the media is not a friend to the Church.



LaRae
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