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  #361  
Old 03-27-2013, 05:10 PM
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I wish the new pope much success and happiness, as I did the old pope(s) as well. :)

Lead by example I think will be his legacy, as well as "quality over quantity", meaning it's not necessarily the number of years that one reigns, but rather more importantly what one does with it. Ageism be damned!

Humility above all...

ps: Moonmaiden23, you impress me once again with your words, you're like a breath of fresh air & light, such a strong woman, one that will never be swayed by the devil himself ~ Ole!
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  #362  
Old 03-27-2013, 05:34 PM
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I wonder if Francis will ever get to a point where he will decide to auction off some of the Vaticans are treasures in order to help the poor. It would really be sign of leading by example.
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  #363  
Old 03-27-2013, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I wonder if Francis will ever get to a point where he will decide to auction off some of the Vaticans are treasures in order to help the poor. It would really be sign of leading by example.
I don't think the Pope can auction Vatican treasures as much as Queen Elizabeth can't auction the Crown Jewels.
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  #364  
Old 03-27-2013, 05:59 PM
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No the pope can't auction off the art etc in the vatican. Even if he could he wouldn't.

Further if you sold everything in the vatican (or any other museum in the world) you still would not solve the problems of the poor.




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  #365  
Old 03-27-2013, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
I don't think the Pope can auction Vatican treasures as much as Queen Elizabeth can't auction the Crown Jewels.
Well Francis is an absolute monarch with full executive, legislative and judiciary powers so there is quite a difference between his powers and those of QEII. Francis appoints people to all positions of power within VCS and the Church and can remove them.

As for the argument that even if he sold everything the poor will always be with us, that is always the excuse given for doing nothing. I doubt Jesus ever said anything about the need for his Church to accumulate vast wealth in art or land or anything else in order to spread the word of God.

I am just suggesting that if Francis wants to really lead by example this would be one way that would really grab the worlds attention and potentially make a real difference not only in the lives of those that might be aided but in the lives of those who might follow his example of divesting themselves of great wealth.
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  #366  
Old 03-27-2013, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Well Francis is an absolute monarch with full executive, legislative and judiciary powers so there is quite a difference between his powers and those of QEII. Francis appoints people to all positions of power within VCS and the Church and can remove them.

As for the argument that even if he sold everything the poor will always be with us, that is always the excuse given for doing nothing. I doubt Jesus ever said anything about the need for his Church to accumulate vast wealth in art or land or anything else in order to spread the word of God.

I am just suggesting that if Francis wants to really lead by example this would be one way that would really grab the worlds attention and potentially make a real difference not only in the lives of those that might be aided but in the lives of those who might follow his example of divesting themselves of great wealth.
Maybe you'll find this article interesting.

Should Pope Francis sell off the Vatican
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  #367  
Old 03-27-2013, 06:13 PM
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I would say the pope is already leading by example and hardly needs any of us telling him what he needs to do or not do.

Jesus didn't say alot of things that people now run around doing so the Jesus didn't say argument won't get you too far. Certainly all you need to do is look to the O.T. and see the wealth of the Temples, ordered by God (and Jesus is God) to be built in that manner.

Further there is nothing wrong with people giving their money to offer (to God) a beautiful place to worship Him in.

If you really feel that way though...that the Church needs to be selling off everything (and I assume you feel the same about the famous museums around the world) then I figure you have also sold of everything of value that you own in order to help the poor?


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  #368  
Old 03-27-2013, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
Maybe you'll find this article interesting.

Should Pope Francis sell off the Vatican
Interesting indeed, although I do not find the argument against the sale by a man who mourns the loss of red shoes, thrones and gold vestments convincing. It's the old "the poor will always be with us so why do anything" story. Rather an unChristian view of the world.
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  #369  
Old 03-27-2013, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Interesting indeed, although I do not find the argument against the sale by a man who mourns the loss of red shoes, thrones and gold vestments less than convincing. It's the old "the poor will always be with us so why do anything" story. Rather an unChristian view of the world.
I can't see how sold historical treasures can do any good.

People will die in any way, whether by starvation or from old age.

But the historical treasures have to be preserved, they can last for a millenia, while generations of people will be able to appreciate them.
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  #370  
Old 03-27-2013, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
If you really feel that way though...that the Church needs to be selling off everything (and I assume you feel the same about the famous museums around the world) then I figure you have also sold of everything of value that you own in order to help the poor?


LaRae
The difference of course is that I am not a Head of a church and I have not said that the church should be about the poor nor have I made any show of living a poor and simple life, but as a matter of fact I do live a comparatively simple home life and I thnk I am rather generous with both my time and my cheque book when it comes to charities such as foodbanks and homeless shelters. Not a Raphael or a Michelangelo in sight and I don't even control my own bank, more the pity.
Frankly I see nothing morally or spiritually wrong with Francis as the Leader of the Roman Catholic Church and Head of State of the Vatican City State making a really bold gesture such as the sale of some art treasures in order to help the poor. I think it would be a real boost to the Churchs reputation around the globe, one that would be applauded by many people.
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  #371  
Old 03-27-2013, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire View Post
I can't see how sold historical treasures can do any good.

People will die in any way, whether by starvation or from old age.

But the historical treasures have to be preserved, they can last for a millenia, while generations of people will be able to appreciate them.
But aren't you using the same old argument "People are going to die anyway so why do anything"?
Just because something is sold does not necessarily mean it will disappear. They will still be appreciated, just in another place whether it is NYC or London, or Beijing or Dubai or Tokyo. They will still exist and be appreciated by people who likely would never have been to Rome.
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  #372  
Old 03-27-2013, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
But aren't you using the same old argument "People are going to die anyway so why do anything"?
Just because something is sold does not necessarily mean it will disappear. They will still be appreciated, just in another place whether it is NYC or London, or Beijing or Dubai or Tokyo. They will still exist and be appreciated by people who likely would never have been to Rome.
And what happens if the treasures are sold to private collections?

The point is that there's almost no chance that the Pope solds the Vatican collection.
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  #373  
Old 03-27-2013, 06:51 PM
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And what happens if the treasures are sold to private collections?

The point is that there's almost no chance that the Pope solds the Vatican collection.
I am sure there are many treasures within VCS that have never seen the light of day so if a few peices ended up in a private collection it wouldn't make much of a difference to the public.

I agree that there is almost no chance of it happening, I just think it would be a really bold gesture in support of the Popes views. Sort of putting your money where your mouth is.
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  #374  
Old 03-27-2013, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
The difference of course is that I am not a Head of a church and I have not said that the church should be about the poor nor have I made any show of living a poor and simple life, but as a matter of fact I do live a comparatively simple home life and I thnk I am rather generous with both my time and my cheque book when it comes to charities such as foodbanks and homeless shelters. Not a Raphael or a Michelangelo in sight and I don't even control my own bank, more the pity.
Frankly I see nothing morally or spiritually wrong with Francis as the Leader of the Roman Catholic Church and Head of State of the Vatican City State making a really bold gesture such as the sale of some art treasures in order to help the poor. I think it would be a real boost to the Churchs reputation around the globe, one that would be applauded by many people.
Well I am sure glad you see nothing wrong with it.....it would do nothing for the Church's reputation. There will always be those that detract the Church no matter what she does. I daresay those more progressive types who are so gung ho about pope Frances right now will be backtracking soon enough once they realize he is not a champion for their personal causes.


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  #375  
Old 03-27-2013, 07:01 PM
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Based on the article posted by BrazilianEmpire it would seem that it is more the Pre-Vatican II types who are a bit more upset with the actions of Pope Francis.

Support for the poor does seem to be the personal cause of Pope Francis.
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  #376  
Old 03-27-2013, 07:05 PM
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I still didn't see him selling off all the Church's belongings in Argentina. Not likely he will do anything different now.

I'm sure there are Catholics across the spectrum (progressive Catholics aren't going to be happy with him either).


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  #377  
Old 03-27-2013, 07:30 PM
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Pope Francis won't sell off priceless items of the Vatican. If anything, this man has been showing by several examples that he sees himself as a man of simple needs and that he is part of a whole rather than being above the rest. From what I've seen, this is a man that is trying to put forth the papal role of a leader as one very much in touch and in tune with those around him. This is not a man that would exercise his power as the Head of State of the Vatican to just up and decide he's going to sell off priceless art or turn the Sistine Chapel into a soup kitchen.

Perhaps by example he is showing us that perhaps the world today is too focused on material things that we really don't need and not enough of being thankful of that which we do have.
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  #378  
Old 03-27-2013, 07:52 PM
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So - you sell treasures and get a bunch of money - then what? There is no point giving to governments to help the poor because ALL governments have a bureaucracy that costs millions and they would waste it. Some governments are corrupt and would waste it even faster (I'm thinking Africa on this one). So we could give it to charities and they would probably spend it more slowly but they would spend it and it wouldn't solve a thing. And in 20 years time, when the money runs out you will get the next starving generation.

If he wants to solve poverty, stop high population rates - ooops can't do that, its against his religion.

He could invest the money in improving food provision but the environmentalists will probably say it will kill the planet. Tricky - planet vs people. The people will need something to stand on.

Water - I think if money was spent on water systems, de-sal plants; irrigation systems then more people could learn to support themselves.

But thats just my opinion.
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  #379  
Old 03-27-2013, 08:01 PM
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Perhaps by example he is showing us that perhaps the world today is too focused on material things that we really don't need and not enough of being thankful of that which we do have.
I agree, but playing Devils Advocate here does the church really need all its material things? Would it be any less the Roman Catholic Church if it had fewer Raphaels and Michaelanglos around? Does it need vast holdings in art and land to be a holy and spiritual institution? Would Catholics be outraged and rebellious if he did decide to sell off some assets as an example to the world?

While it may be unlikely that Francis would sell off art treasures to feed the poor I don't think we can say he would "never" do it. I think the word "never" no longer applies to The Vatican. A couple of months ago if I had suggested that Benedict would abdicate I am sure many posters would have said it would "never" happen and we know how that turned out,
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  #380  
Old 03-27-2013, 08:17 PM
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I agree, but playing Devils Advocate here does the church really needs all its material things? Would it be any less the Roman Catholic Church if it had fewer Raphaels and Michaelanglos around? Does it need vast holdings in art and land to be a holy and spiritual institution? Would Catholics be outraged and rebellious if he did decide to sell off some assets as an example to the world?
You'd need a rich man who doesnt want to enter the kingdom of heaven.....

You are right - there is stuff in the vaults the world has never seen. If he doesnt want to sell it, he could exhibit it all over the world and give the money to charitable causes and the Vatican could carry thge costs in order to maximise the "profit"

But if he could bring the church into the 21st century; realise that ancient teachings were based on information different tp what we have today. I cannot help but think a merciful Saviour would not decry birthcontrol if it meant the living would not starve to death.
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