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  #181  
Old 03-16-2013, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Falklands would have absolutely no bearing on who The Queen sent. Falklands has nothing to do with the royal family or the current Pope now. It's a political argument and Elizabeth is above politics.

Anyone see the various stories about the Cardinal Napier who says paedophilia is a mental illness not a crime?
He said SOME paedophiles are not criminally responsible because they are mentally ill. He did not say there was no CRIME.

And of course this is a legal, not a moral issue of which he spoke.
Not defending the man, just illuminating his comments.

IMHO, from a moral and legal perspective, no one should be abused and abusers need to be stopped.
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  #182  
Old 03-16-2013, 07:45 PM
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Hi, Moonmaiden,
Protestants do not see this is break of the sacrament, as it is allowed in Protestantism, that ALL CRISTIANS, whether they are catholic or protestant, are able to receive the Eucharist.
Bye Bine
Bine221, thanks for response. I know that Protestants feel that way, but Catholic and Orthodox churches are different, due to the sharply different understanding/teaching of what the Eucharist is. Both religions would prefer that Protestants NOT approach-except in emergencies. Catholics are discouraged from taking Protestant communion for the same reason.

Iluvbertie, thanks for explaining about the Kents.
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  #183  
Old 03-16-2013, 08:08 PM
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Hi, i just wanted to try and clarify some issues raised here:
1.- As far as Francis' position against gay marriage, he is against using the word "marriage" to describe the procedure, ceremony and result of such a union. But he is perfectly fine with "civil union" instead.
A few years before the legalization of gay marriage here in Argentina (which he was against, as many people here have pointed out previously) the city of Buenos Aires legalized the civil union, which was essentially the same, only excluding the right to inheritance between the newly united couples (because that could only be changed by the federal government) and the right of adoption (also, an issues that only the federal government can change), and he did not oppose it, he was actually in favor of it and took quite a beating from the catholic right wing because of it.
2.- As far as the accusations of colluding the last military junta, theese accusations were made by a journalist known for his ties with the government, a government that has been in conflict with Bergoglio simply because he is not affraid to call them on the rampant corruption, poverty and insecurity in my country.
All the apolitical figures of the human rights fight during the last junta, like Adolfo Perez Esquivel (novel peace laureate), Alicia Oliveira (Founder of the Center for Legal and Social studies) and Graciela Fernandez Meijide (ex-senator and mother of a son that was "vanished" by the junta), have said that the accusations are completely false.
As far as what the founder of the "Abuelas de Plaza de Mayo" and the founder of the "Madres de Plaza de Mayo" have both said, both groups have lost all credibility here in Argentina in the last decade, since they have been attaking and accusing anyone who opposes or dares to criticise the current administration of beeing a supporter of the last military junta.
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  #184  
Old 03-16-2013, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
He said SOME paedophiles are not criminally responsible because they are mentally ill. He did not say there was no CRIME.

And of course this is a legal, not a moral issue of which he spoke.
Not defending the man, just illuminating his comments.

IMHO, from a moral and legal perspective, no one should be abused and abusers need to be stopped.
Let's face it - 500 years ago, they didn't call it paedophilia and no one raised an eyebrow when grown men married children. It was even possible to marry one's niece if she was the daughter of a sister, not a brother. There are many things in the RC that are still like in the 1500s - so why wonder?

Plus a lot of Catholics including the clergy still believe in the existence of Satan and his demons. So it is no big step to believe that someone abused by a priest is in fact a demon sent to coax the priest away from celibacy and God, not someone to pity as a victim. And that it is best to deal with the priest's "Fall from Grace" within the Church's authority.

When you consider this, the Church has already gone a long way to a more realistic view on the world and on sexual abuse. They now see that there a victims of abuse and they now see that priests are a part of society like anyone else and need to be dealt with by the laws of the society they live in.
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  #185  
Old 03-16-2013, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SoleS View Post
Hi, i just wanted to try and clarify some issues raised here:
1.- As far as Francis' position against gay marriage, he is against using the word "marriage" to describe the procedure, ceremony and result of such a union. But he is perfectly fine with "civil union" instead.
.
Then he apparently does not grasp the concept that separate but equal is in fact not equal. Since the debate is always about civil marriage the churches should just stay out of it. If they do not want to perform a religious marriage fine and dandy, that is their choice, but civil marriage is a civil matter not a church matter.
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  #186  
Old 03-16-2013, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post

Then he apparently does not grasp the concept that separate but equal is in fact not equal. Since the debate is always about civil marriage the churches should just stay out of it. If they do not want to perform a religious marriage fine and dandy, that is their choice, but civil marriage is a civil matter not a church matter.
^this. Well said.
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  #187  
Old 03-16-2013, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Then he apparently does not grasp the concept that separate but equal is in fact not equal. Since the debate is always about civil marriage the churches should just stay out of it. If they do not want to perform a religious marriage fine and dandy, that is their choice, but civil marriage is a civil matter not a church matter.
True, I agree with you.
But even that position shows way more "progressive" thinking on his part that the position of most of the catholic preasts.
Look, I don't think that any of us will live to see a pope that is in favor of gay marriage, abortion or eutanasia, but to have one that at least is willing to accept that different styles of life should be respected and even given some kind of legal protection is a welcome change in my opinion.
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  #188  
Old 03-16-2013, 09:11 PM
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Hi, i just wanted to try and clarify some issues raised here...
Hi SoleS-

That's very interesting information, thank you and welcome to TRF!

Kataryn- The Catholic Church believes in the existence of Satan because, quite simply, Christ Himself did and warned people repeatedly about the existence of demons as well.

If you believe the teachings of Christ, it is not possible to reject as preposterous the idea that Satan exists. Frankly, I don't need to do anything other than turn on the TV, my computer, or read a newspaper to be convinced.
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  #189  
Old 03-16-2013, 10:19 PM
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SoleS, I agree that your post was very informative and welcome! Thanks for that post, it clarified a bit on Francis' positions. I agree on the gay marriage equality, but overall it puts him in the much much better light.

I think overall he will be one of the better popes. Let's wait and see.
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  #190  
Old 03-16-2013, 10:43 PM
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To religions, "marriage" is a religious ceremony or rite. As a society we have secularized the word marriage.

As many European countries already do, there is a civil union which is legal and binding, and then the couple goes to the church for the religious ceremony of marriage.

I have no problem with civil unions. Although I did vote in favor of gay marriage because a) I believe gay couples should have the same legal advantages heterosexual couples enjoy via a government sanctioned union, aka marriage and b) I'm never going to win on my next point.

The government needs to get out of the "marriage" business and leave that to the churches. The government should do civil unions for all couples homosexual and heterosexual.
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  #191  
Old 03-16-2013, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SoleS View Post
Hi, i just wanted to try and clarify some issues raised here...
Can you post any official statements by (then Cardinal) pope Francis where he says he has no problem with civil unions between homosexuals or homosexuals adopting children?
Everything I've been able to find so far indicates the opposite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Let's face it - 500 years ago, they didn't call it paedophilia and no one raised an eyebrow when grown men married children. It was even possible to marry one's niece if she was the daughter of a sister, not a brother. There are many things in the RC that are still like in the 1500s - so why wonder?
Also too remember that the professional psychiatric community thought for years it was possible to 'cure' pedophiles (and homosexuals) and they were the ones advising that the offenders be sent for a 'rest' and then rehabilitated.
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  #192  
Old 03-17-2013, 12:11 AM
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Hi, i just wanted to try and clarify some issues raised here...
Thank you for this, as it is difficult to know who or what to believe coming out of an Argentina that must be delighted with the election of one of their own to the pontificate yet frustrated with a government that does not seem to take the troubled history of Argentina seriously! This board member at any rate will continue to watch the activities of Pope Francis with hope while aware of the difficult past with which he must negotiate.
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  #193  
Old 03-17-2013, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Duchess of Durham View Post
To religions, "marriage" is a religious ceremony or rite. As a society we have secularized the word marriage.

The government needs to get out of the "marriage" business and leave that to the churches. The government should do civil unions for all couples homosexual and heterosexual.
Actually in the early Christian era marriage was seen as a private matter, with no religious ceremonies required, and for Protestantism, Martin Luther's view on marriage was that it was a civil matter, not a religious one, Marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia So marriage as a religious ceremony was not fundamental for the first Christians, perhaps one reason was that during pagan times the Hieros gamos, holy marriage, was a sacred sexual ritual of marriage between a god and a goddess, and the first Christians wanted to distance themselves from pagan rituals. It was first in the beginning of the fourth century marriage became a matter for the church.

So my opinion is, marriage should be a matter for the civil authorities, and if the church(es) wants to have some kind of blessing ceremony to celebrate the union between two people, they can create a new name for that ceremony/rite, but the religious ceremony should not be seen as a legal marriage.
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  #194  
Old 03-17-2013, 08:32 AM
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Pope greets pilgrims after celebrating Mass in Vatican parish



A look at Pope Francis' schedule for next few months




Pope Francis to meet with Benedict XVI at Castel Gandolfo next Saturday


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  #195  
Old 03-17-2013, 11:29 AM
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Isn't there an issue being a Catholic and not being married in the Church? Technically, if sexually active, even if legally married, they are living in sin and may be denied sacraments. Heck, there are bishops in the US who still believe gays are living in a state of sin for being gay - but that's another argument.
Plumping for civil union settles little - because the issue remains about being able to take sacraments, the position of any children the couple have and those children's place in the Church. Imagine raising your children, helping to prepare them for First Communion and Confirmation while being denied the sacraments yourself.
I saw this in my own family, so don't say it does not happen.
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  #196  
Old 03-17-2013, 11:39 AM
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Yes, a Catholic has an obligation to be married by a priest, if they do not do so their marriage is not recognized as valid or sacramental. Ergo they should not receive the Sacraments until they correct the situation.
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  #197  
Old 03-17-2013, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Duchess of Durham View Post
.

The government needs to get out of the "marriage" business and leave that to the churches. The government should do civil unions for all couples homosexual and heterosexual.
Heterosexuals would not want their non-church union to be seen as less than what it is....a marriage. Lots of hetero sexual couples opt for civil marriages for various reasons-non religious people, mixed faith couple, one or both divorced and church will not marry divorced people etc. Perhaps a better solution would be for all couples who wish to be considered as legally married to have a civil marriage and then those who wish it could follow up with a non-legal church service, or failing that lets just have churches stay out of the debate about civil marriages all together.
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  #198  
Old 03-17-2013, 07:19 PM
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Pope Francis First Angelus

Its reported that up to 200,000 packed into St Peter's Square



Pope Francis' simplicity and humor seem to be conquering hearts

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  #199  
Old 03-17-2013, 07:50 PM
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Thanks for the specific clarification about the role of the new pope in the "disappearances". It speaks volumes in Francis' favor that these two leaders of the movement against the former regime say that the Archbishop was innocent, not in collusion with the government. They are used to speaking out, at their own peril, the truth. So what they say is weighty.
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  #200  
Old 03-17-2013, 08:17 PM
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According to royalblog.nl the Duke of Parma will also attend the inaugural mass of the new pope.
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