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  #461  
Old 07-09-2018, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
You must be referring to (as you are) those Catholics who never took up the relaxation of the customs for head-covering. I haven't worn head covering in Church for all of my life, except for special events, usually sacramental in nature (First Communion, Confirmation, Marriage). I think it has to do with the Second Vatican Council in the early 60's, not so? Mention of the Bible in this respect in reference to the Catholic Church doesn't apply. Head-covering is cultural.
No it has nothing to do with Vatican II. As I said, it is still the law of Church but many women stopped wearing veils in the confusion that engulfed the Church after the Council. Many of the changes brought in to the Church in the name of Vatican II actually have nothing to do with the Council. The Council said nothing about Mass facing the people, standing for Communion, Communion in the hand, lay ministers of Communion. the removal of altar rails, the vandalising of beautiful altars and replacing them with tables, etc, etc. All these things were all introduced claiming the Council ordered them but in fact no mention of any of this can be found in the documents of the Council. All Catholic (and indeed Protestant) women throughout the world covered their heads in church until very recent times. It had nothing to do with culture but with the Church following God's teaching.
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  #462  
Old 07-09-2018, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Iain View Post
No it has nothing to do with Vatican II. As I said, it is still the law of Church but many women stopped wearing veils in the confusion that engulfed the Church after the Council. Many of the changes brought in to the Church in the name of Vatican II actually have nothing to do with the Council. The Council said nothing about Mass facing the people, standing for Communion, Communion in the hand, lay ministers of Communion. the removal of altar rails, the vandalising of beautiful altars and replacing them with tables, etc, etc. All these things were all introduced claiming the Council ordered them but in fact no mention of any of this can be found in the documents of the Council. All Catholic (and indeed Protestant) women throughout the world covered their heads in church until very recent times. It had nothing to do with culture but with the Church following God's teaching.
So we will have to agree to disagree. As someone who was educated by Jesuits I have a fairly passable grasp of Church 'law', which I think you are equating with 'doctrine'. None of what you list has anything to do with doctrine, or any church 'laws' whatsoever, and so saying, have nothing whatever to do with 'God's teaching'. As a Jesuit, Pope Francis definitely has a grasp of these things.

As I say we will have to agree to disagree. What you present is in no way consistent with the Catholic Church I grew up in, and I had uncles and cousins who were priests and nuns who very much lived through the Vatican II reforms when John XXIII 'opened the windows of the church'. It's not about the forms, it's about the spirit. It's about living the Beatitudes.
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  #463  
Old 07-09-2018, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
So we will have to agree to disagree. As someone who was educated by Jesuits I have a fairly passable grasp of Church 'law', which I think you are equating with 'doctrine'. None of what you list has anything to do with doctrine, or any church 'laws' whatsoever, and so saying, have nothing whatever to do with 'God's teaching'. As a Jesuit, Pope Francis definitely has a grasp of these things.

As I say we will have to agree to disagree. What you present is in no way consistent with the Catholic Church I grew up in, and I had uncles and cousins who were priests and nuns who very much lived through the Vatican II reforms when John XXIII 'opened the windows of the church'. It's not about the forms, it's about the spirit. It's about living the Beatitudes.
Yes we will have to disagree but remember this, since the changes Mass attendance has plummeted as have vocations to the priesthood and religious orders. Churches are closing at an alarming rate. Pope John may have opened the window but as Pope Paul would later say it "let the smoke of Satan enter the Church." As for Pope Francis, when he was elected the head of the Jesuits in a neighbouring South American country said, "I fear for the future of the Church with this man I charge because he has ruined the Jesuits in Argentina."
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  #464  
Old 07-12-2018, 04:32 AM
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Iain, you are grievously misrepresenting the facts of the case. This is not the place to spar, but the following must be commented upon.

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Originally Posted by Iain View Post
Yes we will have to disagree but remember this, since the changes Mass attendance has plummeted as have vocations to the priesthood and religious orders. Churches are closing at an alarming rate.
LINK: The Global Catholic Population | Pew Research Center

Quote:
Over the past century, the number of Catholics around the globe has more than tripled, from an estimated 291 million in 1910 to nearly 1.1 billion as of 2010, according to a comprehensive demographic study by the Pew Research Center.

But over the same period, the world’s overall population also has risen rapidly. As a result, Catholics have made up a remarkably stable share of all people on Earth. In 1910, Catholics comprised about half (48%) of all Christians and 17% of the world’s total population, according to historical estimates from the World Christian Database. A century later, the Pew Research study found, Catholics still comprise about half (50%) of Christians worldwide and 16% of the total global population.

What has changed substantially over the past century is the geographic distribution of the world’s Catholics. In 1910, Europe was home to about two-thirds of all Catholics, and nearly nine-in-ten lived either in Europe (65%) or Latin America (24%). By 2010, by contrast, only about a quarter of all Catholics (24%) were in Europe. The largest share (39%) were in Latin America and the Caribbean.
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Pope John may have opened the window but as Pope Paul would later say it "let the smoke of Satan enter the Church."
This quote comes from the Catholic National Review Board in regards to the sex scandal, not Pope Paul.

LINK: https://www.americamagazine.org/issu...ws/signs-times

Quote:
Sexual Abuse Brought Smoke of Satan
In its report on the causes of the crisis of sexual abuse by Catholic clergy in the United States, released on Feb. 27, the National Review Board said grievously sinful acts of priests and inaction by bishops let the smoke of Satan enter the church.

As a result the church itself has been deeply wounded. Its ability to speak clearly and credibly on moral issues has been seriously impaired, said the all-lay board established by the U.S. bishops in 2002 to monitor their efforts to bring an end to sexual abuse of minors by priests. Among the many ways the crisis can be viewed, it said, the board believes that the overriding paradigm that characterizes the crisis is one of sinfulness priests committing grave sins against children and bishops committing grave sins of failing to protect their people from predators.

The often scathing report, an unprecedented critique by laypeople of Catholic hierarchical policies and practices, was written at the behest of the bishops themselves.
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Originally Posted by Iain View Post
As for Pope Francis, when he was elected the head of the Jesuits in a neighboring South American country said, "I fear for the future of the Church with this man in charge because he has ruined the Jesuits in Argentina."
What elected head of the Jesuits? In what 'neighbouring South American country'? Too nebulous. Please cite your quote. There is no evidence of what you say, and no evidence of any such quote regarding Pope Francis. This looks perilously close to a smear.
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