Titles, Styles and Ranks of the Grand Ducal Family

[Princess Mia]

Does the Grand Duchess have any more titles such as countess, duchess, or lady or is she just simply Grand Duchess. I've been wondering this.

[Lalla Meriem]

One has to take into consideration that while Henri is the Grand Duke now that his father is still very much alive, so additional titles that would be inherited by Henri have yet to be inherited.

However, she is also Princess of Luxembourg, Princess of Nassau and until 1986 also a Princess of Bourbon-Parma since her marriage to Henri. One day she will also be Duchess of Nassau, Countess Palatine of the Rhine, Countess of Sayn, Königstein, Katzenelnbogen and Diez, Burgravine of Hammerstein, and Lady of Mahlberg, Wiesbaden, Idstein, Merenberg, Limburg and Eppstein. One should also note that these traditional German titles do not exist in legality due to the abolishment of titles in Germany and the female line decent unless one considers them to be newly created Luxembourg titles since they would have been inherted by Jean from his mother - which, of course, they sort of are. Much like the Bourbon Parma title created for Hereditary Grand Duke Guillaume when he was named HGD.

[Princess Mia]

Thanks, so your trying to say she has yet to inherit the further titles you have just listed.

[Lalla Meriem]

It is The Grand Duke who will inherit them not his wife. She will just acquire the feminine version of them via courtesy per the normal standard that the wife has equal dignity as her husband.

[MAfan]

She is not a Princess of Bourbon-Parma, since Duke Carlos of Parma recognised her marriage to Henri as morganatic; however, in 1986 Grand Duke Jean renounced for himself and his family to the Bourbon-Parma titles.

[Princess Mia]

That's not fair. This titles stuff is confusing.

[grace marie]

I think it clear discrimination. I don't understand what this people have against Maria Teresa. I'm happy we live in another times and now it's better.

[Princess Mia]

Grace Marie I agree with you. But GD Maria Teresa probably doesn't have any other titles, because Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte didn't want her to have any. I'm just assuming.

[JessRulz]

As Lalla Meriem said earlier, it is important to remember that Grand Duke Jean still holds many of the titles that come from his parents, Felix and Charlotte. They will be passed on to Grand Duke Henri when Jean passes, so Maria-Teresa will take on the feminine version of them when that happens. I don't see where the discrimination is, apart from the Bourbon-Parma title, which is only one title compared to the dozen-odd still associated with Jean, and Jean renounced the Bourbon-Parma title for the whole family in the late '80s anyway.

[grace marie]

Originally Posted by JessRulz

I don't see where the discrimination is, apart from the Bourbon-Parma title, which is only one title compared to the dozen-odd still associated with Jean, and Jean renounced the Bourbon-Parma title for the whole family in the late '80s anyway.

I don't mean only this single title but whole situation. I was schocked when I've read what was royals reaction on Henri and MT marriage. If I mean right, some of noble guests refuse to came to their wedding becouse of her backgrounds.

I don't blame them if they ignore the wedding prince with sb like Paris Hilton...But MT didn't nothing wrong. She just haven't noble European family.

Sorry for my english. My english teacher would have heart attack if she writes some my comments.

[Princess Mia]

Oh, I get it she'll get the titles later in life, But when Grand Duke Jean dies GD Henri will inherit his titles. Thanks Jezrulz.

[amedea]

How can somebody support monarchies while thinking that some exclusions are discriminating? I support the Bourbon-Parma policy!

[Princess Mia]

Why didn't people like Maria Teresa when she and the GD got married? she she seems like a nice person.

[Count langley]

I don't think it was a personal attack against H.R.H. The Grand Duchess (Maria Teresa), but the fact remains she was a commonor, although an aristocratic one at best.

H.R.H. Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte presumably believed her son and heir to the throne should contract an equal marriage, e.g. Princess or at least a girl from the nobility. This of course was not to be and it has been rumored that Grand Duchess Maria Teresa and Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte did not get on very well privately.

I, for one, believes that family disagreements are personal and should remain within the family as it is not seemly to discuss them when that facts are unknown.

I wish Her Royal Highness a speedy recovery.

[Lalla Meriem]

Originally Posted by Count langley

I don't think it was a personal attack against H.R.H. The Grand Duchess (Maria Teresa), but the fact remains she was a commonor, although an aristocratic one at best.

H.R.H. Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte presumably believed her son and heir to the throne should contract an equal marriage, e.g. Princess or at least a girl from the nobility. This of course was not to be and it has been rumored that Grand Duchess Maria Teresa and Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte did not get on very well privately.

I, for one, believes that family disagreements are personal and should remain within the family as it is not seemly to discuss them when that facts are unknown.

I wish Her Royal Highness a speedy recovery.

Grand Duchess Josephine-Charlotte fully supported her son's choice to marry the person he wanted. The bitterness between her and Maria-Teresa arouse later and was not a result of her wedding to Henri. It was Grand Duke Jean and Grand Duchess Charlotte who were not in favor of the match. Obviously, they relented after Henri's threats to renounce. How ironic that it was Grand Duke Jean who seemed to enjoy a friendly and close relationship with Maria-Teresa.

I, too, feel that personal matters should be kept personal. I often wonder how Archduchess Marie-Astrid, Princess Margarethe, Prince Jean and Prince Guillaume felt about Maria-Teresa following her press conference about their mother (who was already ill at the time).

I think that Henri made an excellent choice. Maria-Teresa may not have been aristocratic or European by birth but she was certainly a respectable young women from a good family. Her family was even said to be wealthier than the Grand Ducal Family.

I often think of the circumstances of the life of Maria-Teresa and remind myself that even bad things may turn out for the best. Just think if Castro hadn't come to power in Cuba her family would likely have remained in Cuba and we wouldn't have a Grand Duchess Maria-Teresa, Prince Felix, ect...Things that start out badly may yet have a happy ending if you persevere.

[Principessa Cano]

I know that the order of rank goes emperor-king-grand duke-archduke-prince and that a Grand Duke would not have to bow to a King as they are both Heads of State, but does a hereditary Grand Duke have to bow to a Crown Prince (or any the heir of a king) or are they considered to be equal because they are both heirs?

[Lalla Meriem]

Originally Posted by Principessa Cano

I know that the order of rank goes emperor-king-grand duke-archduke-prince and that a Grand Duke would not have to bow to a King as they are both Heads of State, but does a hereditary Grand Duke have to bow to a Crown Prince (or any the heir of a king) or are they considered to be equal because they are both heirs?

Actually, Archduke is generally before a non-reigning Grand Duke. Ranking based on title alone is no longer practiced and was associated more with the style a person carried (the various forms of Highness and Majesty are styles not titles) than their title.

Heads of state are considered equal irregardless of their title or style. They are ranked only by years in their respective position, but are otherwise considered equal no matter be they Prince of Monaco, King of Spain, Grand Duke of Luxembourg or Emperor of Japan.

Eg. If all the monarchs of the world were attending an event together the King of Thailand would be seated first since he is the longest reigning monarch in the world (June 9, 1946) and the King of Bhutan as the newest monarch in the world (December 14, 2006) would be seated last. All the other monarchs would be seated between them (maybe not literally between them as you know tables, rows, seating and what not differ but you grasp my meaning). Just a note, I list the King of Bhutan as "lowest" because I do not count Nicolas Sarkosy in my rankings based on his position as Co-Prince of Andorra.

A major event would feature their arrivals based on rank as this. Persons of the local monarchy (and family) would, of course, arrive first others will arrive based on longest reigning monarch and within those families based on their individual rankings.

Heirs are equal and do not pay reverence (bowing or curtsying) to each other. Guillaume (and future wife) do not bow/curtsy to The Crown Prince of Japan (heir to an Emperor) or to The Prince of Asturias (heir to a King) and so forth. Naturally, you may see Guillaume take the hand of Crown Princess Victoria or another lady (even a commoner) and bow to her but his is gentlemanly curtsy based on their gender not their position or rank. I've saw Guillaume and his brothers do this for numerous ladies who rank below them or who are commoners because they are properly raised gentlemen The King of Spain also does this for ladies (he is also a gentleman). Some royal men are, IMHO, lacking in the area of basic etiquette and do not bow to ladies in general. I prefer the style of our Luxembourg family and The King of Spain who treat every lady as if she were, well, a lady. So, don't necessarily assume that when you see Guillaume or King Juan Carlos bow to a women that they are doing it because they think she outranks them they do it because they are gentlemen of class.

If you look through the pictures on the websites of Tom Wagner or Manuel Dias covering the silver wedding celebrations of Henri and MT you will see photographs of Guillaume, Louis and Felix making beautiful bows to ladies of every rank queen, princess, archduchess, countess and even lowly commoners.

[MamboQueen]

Excellent explanation Lalla! And you're absolutely right about Lux and Spanish royals, I guess it just proves that being smooth is a Latin thing.

[Principessa Cano]

Thanks for the explanation. One can only wish there were more gentlemen in the world.