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  #61  
Old 08-26-2013, 06:04 PM
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When Princess Alexandra married your husband will have the title of Prince?
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Old 08-30-2013, 10:30 AM
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When Princess Alexandra married your husband will have the title of Prince?
Not unless she marries a Prince or he's created a Prince.
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27th of March 1615:Death of Marguerite de Valois,Queen of Navarre
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  #63  
Old 11-19-2013, 04:28 PM
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When Princess Alexandra married your husband will have the title of Prince?
The house law states that she will keep her title and remain a member of the House and that even her spouse will become a member of the House though he will not get a title. Their children will have their father's last name and if he has a title, his title.
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  #64  
Old 02-10-2014, 08:03 PM
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What is an arrete grand-ducal?

Thank you MAfan! An arrete grand-ducal sounded extremely fancy.
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  #65  
Old 02-11-2014, 05:14 PM
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Basically it is a decree issued by the Grand Duke.
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  #66  
Old 01-30-2015, 05:29 PM
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The Proclamation and Enthronement Ceremony of HRH Grand Duke Jean in 1964


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27th of March 1615:Death of Marguerite de Valois,Queen of Navarre
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  #67  
Old 01-30-2015, 05:48 PM
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Basically it is a decree issued by the Grand Duke.
Indeed, the British equivalent is an Order in Council, a Proclamation, a Royal Warrant, a Letter in Patent. An Arrêté Grand-Ducal is the same as a Koninklijk Besluit (Royal Decree) in the Netherlands (both Countries were under one Crown until 1890). Whatever the exact name, it all means an executive form of legislation based on a higher Act (a parent Act). No parliamentary vote is required, since it is always in the framework of a higher Act.

In an Arrêté Grand-Ducal always the source (the parent Act) on which it is based, is named.
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  #68  
Old 01-16-2017, 02:39 AM
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A Princess' Right to the Throne http://fb.me/8s1f2V5Hc
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  #69  
Old 01-16-2017, 06:00 AM
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What is an arrete grand-ducal?

Thank you MAfan! An arrete grand-ducal sounded extremely fancy.

Arrêté grand-ducal
means a grand-ducal decree in French. In Belgium, a royal decree is also called an arrêté royal in French (or koninklijk besluit in Dutch).

Basically, a royal decree in a kingdom, or a grand-ducal decree in a grand duchy, is an executive order issued by the monarch. In most constitutional monarchies, a royal decree is pre-approved by the council of ministers (i.e. the elected government of the country) and is signed by one or more ministers who are responsible for its contents; the monarch himself is not responsible although the decree is issued in his name.

Click on the following links for examples of royal decrees in Belgium (in Dutch and in French), in the Netherlands (in Dutch), and in Spain (in Spanish). You can see at the bottom the names of the responsible ministers who sign the decree.

In the United Kingdom, however, the Queen does not issue royal decrees, but rather what is called an "order in council", which is similar. In Sweden, on the other hand, under the new constitution that came into force in 1975, executive orders are now made by the government alone and the King accordingly doesn't have the power to issue royal decrees; however, the King of Sweden still meets with the government in advisory councils, and, as the constitutional Head of the State, he can also issue diplomatic credentials and award certain honors to Swedish and foreign citizens.
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  #70  
Old 01-16-2017, 02:44 PM
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A Princess' Right to the Throne http://fb.me/8s1f2V5Hc
Women were never prohibited from ascending to the throne of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg.

The first succession law, the Nassau family pact of 1783, allowed female succession if the male line of the house of Nassau became extinct.

Succession in Nassau and Luxemburg

The second succession law, the Nassau family statute of 1907, was semi-Salic and recognized the rights of succession of Grand Duke Wilhelm IV's daughters and all of their descendants who were born in an approved marriage.

http://data.legilux.public.lu/file/e...-37-fr-pdf.pdf
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  #71  
Old 01-16-2017, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Women were never prohibited from ascending to the throne of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg.

The first succession law, the Nassau family pact of 1783, allowed female succession if the male line of the house of Nassau became extinct.

Succession in Nassau and Luxemburg

The second succession law, the Nassau family statute of 1907, was semi-Salic and recognized the rights of succession of Grand Duke Wilhelm IV's daughters and all of their descendants who were born in an approved marriage.

http://data.legilux.public.lu/file/e...-37-fr-pdf.pdf
Aren't the two the same thing. I thought semi-Salic succession is when women can only inherit or ascend to the throne if there is none in the male line.
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  #72  
Old 01-16-2017, 03:11 PM
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Aren't the two the same thing. I thought semi-Salic succession is when women can only inherit or ascend to the throne if there is none in the male line.
Yes, both laws were semi-Salic. The difference was that women's descendants were not in the line of succession up to 1907.
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  #73  
Old 01-16-2017, 03:19 PM
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It went further then that. In order for a woman to inherit, there had to be absolutely no possible male heir to inherit. Customarily, under semi-Salic, if a king had no sons, his daughters would be heir to the throne before say a nephew, cousin or brother of the king. This was not the case in Nassau as we see with the Netherlands, when we see Luxembourg dividing off.

If the rules of 1907 were in place, wilhemina would have been grand duchess of Luxembourg as she had no brothers. But under the old rules, there had to be no legitimate male heir alive, and there was, Adolph. Adolph was not even closely related, he was a member of a cadet branch. His closest relation to William III was through his great grandmother who was a daughter of William IV of orange.
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  #74  
Old 01-16-2017, 03:38 PM
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RoyalHighness 2002 was correct; under semi-Salic succession, a woman or her descendant can only inherit the throne when the male line becomes extinct. The Netherlands also followed semi-Salic law, but Adolph was not a male-line descendant of King Willem I, so he did not become the King of the Netherlands.
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  #75  
Old 02-11-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The second succession law, the Nassau family statute of 1907, was semi-Salic and recognized the rights of succession of Grand Duke Wilhelm IV's daughters and all of their descendants who were born in an approved marriage.

http://data.legilux.public.lu/file/e...-37-fr-pdf.pdf
It's a bit more complicated than that. The 1907 law didn't give all of Wilhelm's daughters succession rights per se. It gave Marie-Adelaide and her male heirs succession rights. In the case that Marie-Adelaide would die without any heirs (as she did), the same would apply to the next daughter. However, Charlotte didn't technically have succession rights as long as her sister was Grand Duchess. The same applies to Wilhelm's other daughters. Hilda, Antonia, Elisabeth and Sophie and their descendance who do not have a right to Luxembourg's throne. The same applies to the fours sisters of Grand Duke Jean, his two daughters and niece (of the male line). They would only have rights, if no member of the male line (or Princess Alexandra's) was alive.

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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
If the rules of 1907 were in place, wilhemina would have been grand duchess of Luxembourg as she had no brothers. But under the old rules, there had to be no legitimate male heir alive, and there was, Adolph. Adolph was not even closely related, he was a member of a cadet branch. His closest relation to William III was through his great grandmother who was a daughter of William IV of orange.
Adolph inherited the Luxembourgish throne as he was seventeenth cousin once removed through the Nassau line of Willem III.
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  #76  
Old 02-11-2017, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by SydneyLux View Post
It's a bit more complicated than that. The 1907 law didn't give all of Wilhelm's daughters succession rights per se. It gave Marie-Adelaide and her male heirs succession rights. In the case that Marie-Adelaide would die without any heirs (as she did), the same would apply to the next daughter. However, Charlotte didn't technically have succession rights as long as her sister was Grand Duchess. The same applies to Wilhelm's other daughters. Hilda, Antonia, Elisabeth and Sophie and their descendance who do not have a right to Luxembourg's throne. The same applies to the fours sisters of Grand Duke Jean, his two daughters and niece (of the male line). They would only have rights, if no member of the male line (or Princess Alexandra's) was alive.
Naturally, no person can inherit the throne as long as the heirs who are above them in the line of succession are alive. When I say "succession rights" I am referring to all of the descendants who would in theory have inherited the throne if the heirs in the line of succession before them had died.

Article 1 of the old law of 1907, if I have understood it correctly, meant that all of Princess Marie-Adelheid's legitimate descendants, male and female, who were born in an approved marriage, were above her sisters and their descendants in the line of succession.

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Art. I . — Da Uns ein männlicher Erbe bisher versagt geblieben ist und seit dem Tode Unseres Oheims des Prinzen Nicolas Liebden ohne Hinterlassung successionsfahiger Descendenz der Fürstliche Mannesstamm des Hauses Nassau auf Unseren Augen allein steht, kann der in Artikel 42 des Erbvereins von 1783 gesetzte Fall eintreten und hat alsdann Unsere erstgeborene Tochter Prinzessin Marie-Adelheid und zunächst ihr Mannesstamm, aus gemäss den Familienstatuten Unseres Hauses geschlossener Ehe, nach dem Recht der Erstgeburt,Uns in der Krone Luxemburg, sowie als Chef Unseres Hauses und in Besitz und Nutzniessung des gesamten Hausfideicommisses nachzufolgen, jedoch ist bis zur Vollendung ihres achtzehnten Lebensjahres die Regentschaft und Vormundschaft für sie von Unserer vielgeliebten Gemahlin der Grossherzogin Maria-Anna zu führen.

Sollte Unsere genannte vielgeliebte Tochter ohne Hinterlassung einer Nachkommenschaft aus gemäss den Familienstatuten Unseres Hauses geschlossener Ehe versterben, so sind Unsere andern vielgeliebten Töchter und ihre Linien in gleicher Weise nach Primogenitur-Recht zur Erbfolge berufen.
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  #77  
Old 01-20-2019, 01:46 PM
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I guess it is a matter of perspective. I believe the Nassau pact stipulated the Salic Law. However, in the event of a discontinuation of the monarchy due to that law, the closest heir of the last male would succeed. In the communication regarding the change it was worded as 'exclusion':

Apparently, the interpretation of how the non-male line succession was to take place wasn't exactly clear, which is why special decrees were made in 1907 making it clear how it was to be applied regarding his daughters. Which is: male line descendants first for the eldest daughter, than for second daughter, etc.

Because of the above princess Charlotte of Nassau is still considered NOT to be in line of succession. Only in the event of a possible discontinuation of the monarchy, the closest heir in female line will be identified (which could either be a male or female).
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So, if salic law still applied with the provision for semi-salic succession in case of discontinuation, I'm trying to think of who would be the heir. I am not so sure in the cases of Henri, Guillaume and Sebastién: would Alexandra trump Amalia or the other way around? If Felix or Liam was the last male ruler it would surely be Amalia.

If prince Guillaume or one of his sons would have been the last heir it would be Charlotte. In all other cases it would really depend on what the family would look like at that moment: whether it would be Marie-Astrid or her descendants (again in male line only at first; but currently that would only be a solution for one generation, so depending on the provision made they would most likely continu with Margareta's children) or less likely, unless, prince Robert ends up being the last male ruler, his elder sister princess Charlotte (daughter of prince Charles) and her three sons.

Edit: Mods, apologies, we should have taken this discussion to a more appropriate thread. Please feel free to move it.
Moved some relevant messages to a more appropriate thread.

Here is also a link to thecurrent law and to the explanation given (that I referenced in the post above).
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  #78  
Old 01-20-2019, 02:08 PM
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Seeing what staunch Catholics they are, I'd almost say it is some sort of a requirement.

In fact the Nassau's are originally protestants and when Grand Duke William IV, at the time only a prince of Nassau, fell in love with Infanta Maria Anna of Portugal, who was a catholic, his family was against the union. Only when in 1890 the Nassau-Weilburg branch came to power in Luxembourg, the marriage was encouraged as the Grand Duchy is a very catholic country. Upon marriage it was agreed that the children would be raised as catholics as William and his father thought that a catholic country should have a catholic monarch.
As far as I am aware the agreement was not that the children would be raised Catholic but that the sons (who were expected to succeed) would be raised protestant and the daughters (who were excluded from the line of succession) would be raised Catholic. In that way both families could accept the union (as the Portuguese king wasn't very much in favor either to see their grandchildren being brought up protestants). As the couple ended up with 6 daughters and no sons the family changed from being protestant to being roman catholic.
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  #79  
Old 01-20-2019, 02:18 PM
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I guess it is a matter of perspective. I believe the Nassau pact stipulated the Salic Law. However, in the event of a discontinuation of the monarchy due to that law, the closest heir of the last male would succeed.
That is right, although it is technically considered "semi-Salic" when a female is stipulated to inherit in the event of extinction of the male line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Apparently, the interpretation of how the non-male line succession was to take place wasn't exactly clear, which is why special decrees were made in 1907 making it clear how it was to be applied regarding his daughters. Which is: male line descendants first for the eldest daughter, than for second daughter, etc.
I'm not aware of any issues with the interpretation of Article 42 of the Nassau family pact as it applied to Grand Duke Guillaume IV's daughters. It stipulated that upon the extinction of the male heirs in the house of Nassau, the oldest daughter of the last male, assuming he had daughters (otherwise, the closest female in the Nassau family) would succeed him.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/nassau.htm#42

Article 42 also stated that new succession laws should then be created to decide who should succeed the female heir, as the Nassau family pact did not address this. Under the original laws of the family pact, female-line descendants could not be heirs; if the last male's oldest daughter predeceased him, his next oldest daughter (rather than his oldest daughter's children) would inherit. This was dealt with by the 1907 law.


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Because of the above princess Charlotte of Nassau is still considered NOT to be in line of succession. Only in the event of a possible discontinuation of the monarchy, the closest heir in female line will be identified (which could either be a male or female).
The 1907 law allowed all of Grand Duke Guillaume IV's legitimate descendants (excluding those descended from marriages unrecognized under the house rules) to be in the line of succession. It also changed the order of succession by stating that if any of his daughters predeceased her father, her descendants took precedence over her sisters and their descendants. (That is why I believe the word "excluded" in the press release is misleading.)

Mémorial A n° 37 de 1907 - Legilux


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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
So, if salic law still applied with the provision for semi-salic succession in case of discontinuation, I'm trying to think of who would be the heir. I am not so sure in the cases of Henri, Guillaume and Sebastién: would Alexandra trump Amalia or the other way around? If Felix or Liam was the last male ruler it would surely be Amalia.

If prince Guillaume or one of his sons would have been the last heir it would be Charlotte. In all other cases it would really depend on what the family would look like at that moment: whether it would be Marie-Astrid or her descendants (again in male line only at first; but currently that would only be a solution for one generation, so depending on the provision made they would most likely continu with Margareta's children) or less likely, unless, prince Robert ends up being the last male ruler, his elder sister princess Charlotte (daughter of prince Charles) and her three sons.
I agree, that would also seem to be the most likely situation. The 1907 law does not address the exact order of succession. However, as Heraldica says, the law was secretly changed numerous times, so the secret changes may have clarified the order of succession that would apply to non-male-line descendants.

Décret grand-ducal du 18 juin 2012 portant coordination du Statut de famille du 5 mai 1907. - Legilux

It is also worth considering the possibility that some of the princesses did not ask the grand duke for his consent to their marriages, which would have excluded their descendants from the line of succession.
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Old 01-20-2019, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Naturally, no person can inherit the throne as long as the heirs who are above them in the line of succession are alive. When I say "succession rights" I am referring to all of the descendants who would in theory have inherited the throne if the heirs in the line of succession before them had died.

Article 1 of the old law of 1907, if I have understood it correctly, meant that all of Princess Marie-Adelheid's legitimate descendants, male and female, who were born in an approved marriage, were above her sisters and their descendants in the line of succession.
My interpretation is that only the male-line descendants were to be included, so if eldest daughter had no male line descendants, the second daughter and her male-line descendants would constitute the new 'line' of succession. If there were no male-line descendants, it would pass to daughter number 3 and her male-line descendants and NOT to her daughters.

So, if Jean had only had daughters and no sons, his younger brother Charles and his male-line descendants would have been next - at least according to the rules; most likely the rules would have been changed at that point. Had Charles' marriage for example not been declared dynastic (or had he two daughters instead of a daughter and a son, succession rights would have passed to prince Heinrich of Bavaria (had his marriage been declared dynastic) at the time of Jean's abdication (as by that time his aunt Hilda and mother Antonia were no longer alive).
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