Succession and Membership Issues


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Charlotte1 said:
There is no reason for Naruhito to step aside, if the succession law does not change, Akishino will continue to be Naruhito's heir. Therefore after Naruhito is Emperor upon his death Akishino will become Emperor ( Akishino is 5 years younger than Naruhito. Belgium had the same situation with King Baudoiun (sp!) his brother Albert succeeded him and then Albert's son) If the new baby is a boy he will succeed after both Naruhito, and his father Akishino.
Naruhito has been prepared since babyhood to be emperor, one of the reasons given to change the succession laws is that Aiko needs to begin her preparation as soon as possible to become empress if the law changes. Akishino never had this preparation, this would be seen as a stumbling block, if anyone were to be encouraged to step aside it would Akishino, not Naruhito.
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Thanks for your excellent explanations! You've really shed a lot of light on these issues for me.
 
CrownPrinceLorenzo said:
LOL good one. She should come down from the heavens, resurrect the 8 former reigning Empresses and all 9 of them should smack some common sense into the IHA.
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It would be worth of a movie, the Revenge of Estrogen Past! Your post brought to my mind the scene with the singing Ancestors in the Disney movie Mulan! :)
 
Lol

I love Mulan! (Mulan II was horrible though!)

The movie can also be called "The Empress Strikes Back!" directed by George Lucas.
 
This whole succession business makes me very sad. What is so wrong with a girl? I wonder if the IHA really think that women are second class citizens. If these people have wives, how doe these women stay with their husbands?! I also worry that if Princess Aiko grows up and she doesn't become Empress; how will she feel? She could have done a lot for this world if she became Empress. Also, if she married a commoner or a foreigner, how is this bad? The IHA as such a firm grip on the royal family, I'm sure they could control one more man just the same. I doubt one foreign man/commoner marrying an Empress is going to overturn the IHA single-handedly.
 
CrownPrinceLorenzo said:
I love Mulan! (Mulan II was horrible though!)

The movie can also be called "The Empress Strikes Back!" directed by George Lucas.
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Leave that title for our hopeful Empress Aiko of Japan, she will probably use it when she writes her memoirs when she is old :)
 
^_^

*crosses finger*

I hope that happens! Empress Regnant and her Prince Consort.
 
purple_platinum said:
ridiculous.. ridiculous...

i honestly hope that Prince Akishino & Princess Kiko will have a baby GIRL,

and when (former Princess) Sayako & Mr. Kuroda have a child, it will be a baby BOY...

hmm....
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Forgive me for my ignorance on the subject but the children of former Princess Sayako and Mr. Kuroda will not be included in the line of succession? So is it only princes and their children who are included in the line of succession? The IHA could really take notes on the royal families in Europe. Sweden changed their succession laws earlier than other European countries: Take Crown Princess Victoria, she is a GIRL who is doing a GREAT job and will make a fabulous QUEEN and hopefully she'll manage to marry soon....:D A girl is not a tragedy as the IHA like to think. And if any of these IHA men have daughters, I wonder what these men think of them. Do they love their sons more than their daughters?:eek:
 
Sayako!

That's right, females and their descendants have no claim to the throne.

But it'll be funny when Princess Sayako (she'll always be a Princess in my heart) do have a boy.

It should be at least Semi-Salic Law, just like old Japan and currently Luxembourg.
 
Thank you so much Charlotte1 for your insight. Your posting helped address many of the questions that have crossed my mind the past couple of days as I was reading posts relating to the Imperial family and IHA.
 
My comment in post #103 was a personal opinion as to what may happen if the situation becomes unbearable for Masako. Naruhito appears to be firmly by Masako's side and he may face a difficult choice - throne or wife. And he may face it relatively soon - not years down the road.
 
Majority of Japanese oppose quick revision of Imperial House Law
(Kyodo) _ Fifty-five percent of Japanese respondents to a new poll are opposed to an early revision of the Imperial House Law that would pave the way for female monarchs in Japan, the Mainichi Shimbun reported Sunday....................
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060212/kyodo/d8fn9si04.html
 
Just to think that Grand Duchess Theresa of Luxemburg, herself a commoner and a foreigner, gave birth to one boy after another one to the tiny Grand Duchy while the mighty giant Japan has this gender based crisis.
 
grevinnan said:
My comment in post #103 was a personal opinion as to what may happen if the situation becomes unbearable for Masako. Naruhito appears to be firmly by Masako's side and he may face a difficult choice - throne or wife. And he may face it relatively soon - not years down the road.
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I don't mean to be rude but, what you previously wrote didn't show much factual understanding of the structures of the Imperial Family nor the cultural setting that is Japan. Therefore I was prompted to post some factual information.

I'll still reiterate that Naruhito will not leave the Imperial Family, it's firmly ingrained into Japanese culture that to 'give up' is dishonourable. In the war years this was reflected by the fact that Japanese soldiers fought to the death, they wouldn't surrender, suicide was preferable ( there's no religious prohibitions to suicide in Japan, it's considered an honourable death) The Japanese language has a word for which there is no direct English translation "gambate" the closest I can come to a translation is "fight, don't give up, do your best". This word is used all the time to athletes, students doing exams or tests or people in general when they're facing something difficult in their lives.
On top of this is the sense of duty royals, all royals have about their role in life. Naruhito is no different, more so as duty, honour and obligation are extremely important in Japanese society.
You assume that things will become unbearable for Masako, on the contrary they'll probably get better. Regardless of what the scenario is that plays itself out. Masako's importance ( the same as any consort to a ruler or consort was to provide and heir. In Masako's case a male heir. Prince Henrik of Denmark said that the Danish royal household wouldn't allow him to fly his own plane until he fathered his first child. Even CP Mary said that when she asked for a role description all that she could find out was that she had to provide an heir)
So getting back to Masako. If the law on female succession changes, then the pressure is off her, Aiko succeeds her father to the throne. There's no need to have another child as the law would state that the Emperor's oldest child regardless of sex would succeed.
If Kiko's baby is a boy and the succession law does not pass, then the pressure is off Masako too as there's a male heir for the next generation. Aiko will have a chance of greater freedom, she could marry whomever she wanted and follow whatever career path she wanted.
Traditionalists don't tamper with tradition, Naruhito will succeed his father, there's no pushing him aside. Probably the only one who will have a hard time is Akishino as he'll have to have some preparation too to become emperor one day.

Masako has found life in the Imperial Family difficult but she's had it a lot easier than the current empress Michiko did when she became the first commoner to join the Imperial Family. Michiko had the mother-in-law from hell who actively campaigned against her son marrying Michiko. ( She wanted him to marry someone from the nobility class) Her father-in-law was no better, he once shouted at Michiko so badly that she lost her voice for a prolonged period of time through stress. Even when married the Empress Nagako was publically rude to Michiko and snubbed her pointedly. Michiko and Akihito fought to be allowed to bring up their own children. Previous royal children were taken at birth and given to wet nurses and raised in a separate wing of the royal palace. Michiko was even criticised because she breastfed her babies. In the early 1960's she had a nervous breakdown ( and this was after she gave birth to a male heir!) But despite all this she kept going and didn't leave.
Masako has had a tough time, but at least thanks to the battles her inlaws fought, could bring up her own child. Her inlaws are relatively supportive and interfere very little in her and Naruhito's life. In his last birthday interview Naruhito said that there were better lines of communication with IHA hierachy in regards to the roles he and Masako once she was fully recovered would take on. This year they have received a new head of their household. The Japanese monarchy is a very traditional one in a society where as I said before, the collective is more important than the individual. The exact opposite to western societies where the individual is more important. The IHA is interested in what is best for the collective ( The Imperial Family as an institution) a male heir in their opinion, if they get one the pressure is off Masako. She won't get sidelined, neither will Naruhito, that's messing with tradition.
 
an editorial by Japan Times

The case for a baby princess

No wonder the Crown Princess gets depressed. The spectacle of the chasm between the Imperial family and the 21st century has long been enough to depress anyone. But then, just when the princess must have thought the gap might be closing a bit, given the prime minister's efforts to win the right of succession for the family's female members, along comes an unexpected pregnancy to send everything back to square one.

It is not that the princess would not wish to congratulate her brother- and sister-in-law, Prince Akishino and Princess Kiko, on their joyous news. The whole nation does. It is just that she must dread having to explain to her 4-year-old daughter why people's joy seems to be so dependent on this new cousin being a boy. Whatever happened to the idea that girls are just as special, just as valued, as boys? How do you explain why some people think being a girl is such a crippling defect it automatically disqualifies you from a job that carries no power anyway? Or why it would still be empowering to women for a woman to accede to a position of such bizarre powerlessness?

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ed20060212a1.html
 
Originally posted by Toldedo
It would be worth of a movie, the Revenge of Estrogen Past!
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Lol! I needed that.:D

Mr Koizumi should just push forward with the reform anyway. People are usually a bit reluctant to change at first, but if the law was changed now, by the time Kiko's baby was born, people would've gotten used to the idea of Aiko as empress. Then the PM will be remembered as a principled man, who did the right thing, instead of a push-over.
 
Absolutely- what if this baby is, in fact, a boy who only has daughters of his own? I know that's spinning things out a bit too far, but the law should be changed to accomodate Aiko.

Ugh. I wonder what Sayako's thinking about all of this!
 
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LDP panel to study ways to keep male-line succession as well
A study panel of the ruling Liberal Democratic Party will discuss a wide range of issues on the proposed revision to the Imperial House Law, including ways to preserve the male line of Japan's imperial succession, LDP policy chief Hidenao Nakagawa said Sunday.
Nakagawa said on a TV Asahi program that he wants to have the panel ''fully study and discuss ways to preserve the male line as well.''
The panel should discuss both allowing female monarchs and preserving the male-line tradition, he said................................
http://home.kyodo.co.jp/modules/fstStory/index.php?storyid=229691

Japan wary of empress law change
TOKYO, Japan (Reuters) -- A majority of Japanese favor letting women inherit the imperial throne but slightly more than half oppose a quick revision of the males-only succession law, a survey showed Sunday, after news that a princess is pregnant with a possible male heir.
The survey was published in the Mainichi newspaper after a surprise announcement last week that Princess Kiko, wife of Emperor Akihito's second son, is pregnant with her third child, raising hopes that a male heir might be born for the first time in four decades.
News of Kiko's pregnancy prompted Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to back away from his pledge to submit a bill revising the imperial succession law to the current session of parliament......................
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/12/japan.succession.reut/index.html?section=cnn_latest
 
Ugh! This is just getting more and more frustrating. The whole situation is just absolutely ridiculous. I don't think making Aiko Empress will make Japan crumble. The IHA are cruel men in suits playing a game. The Imperial Family are not pieces of a board game, they're people!!!:mad:
 
It's a shame that the people apparently are quite happy for the IHA to do what it takes to ensure a male succession. Japan seems to be a country run by men for men, with women being subservient and/or decorative. If that's the way they want it, I suppose it's their business, but it seems like an awful waste of half the population.
 
The embarassing and ridiculous thing is that they do refer to make a study about it! Is no longer on the process of changing the Constitution but on the effect of a female Monarch on the throne. They need a study for that?!?!
In Spain the issue is not whether Leonor will become Queen or not but the political proccess it involves that requires several steps. Leonor will be Queen, just look in the eyes of her Dad and see that there is no force on earth that will prevent him making his daugther the heir.

But in Japan, from what I've been reading, is more about chauvinism of a few politicians even when the majority of the people would love to have an Empress Aiko. Let them go to the voting polls, that will show the opinion of the public is not the one reflected on the opinions of career male politicians.
 
I am not to sure about that Toledo. ome articles posted here states that a majority (55%) is in favour of delaying the bill and wait for the child of Princess Kiko. Apart from that I do not think that politicians would cling to these traditions if the japanese society would disagree strongly with them, it would be some sort of political suicide.
 
^_^

That's such a nice picture.

Both Crown Prince Naruhito and Crown Princess Victoria had cheesy smiles on lol.

Anyway, I think Crown Princess Masako should show her defiance by wearing a shirt with Empress Go-Sakuramachi's seal on it.
 
...and another ridiculous thing, as I understand it, is that the law barring females from succeeding as Empress was only passed in 1947. That is not really all that old; in fact, taking a look historically, it is pretty recent -- so what is the problem here? On the other hand, since the article makes clear the emperor is a symbolic job with no real power, maybe Masako is jumping up and down with glee that her beloved daughter, who is no doubt very smart, will get to bypass this "empty" job with an impressive title and actually do something more substantive with her life.

I am interested if anyone knows the author of the Japanese Times article? Or does it stand for the whole editorial board of the newspaper? And what is the reputation of the newspaper? How respected is it? Equivalent to the Wall Street Journal or New York Times in America? or more left wing?
 
...and another ridiculous thing, as I understand it, is that the law barring females from succeeding as Empress was only passed in 1947. That is not really all that old; in fact, taking a look historically, it is pretty recent -- so what is the problem here? On the other hand, since the article makes clear the emperor is a symbolic job with no real power, maybe Masako is jumping up and down with glee that her beloved daughter, who is no doubt very smart, will get to bypass this "empty" job with an impressive title and actually do something more substantive with her life.
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No, it actually started during the Meiji Restoration. In 1889, Japan adapted Prussian succession laws.
 
So not only is it not a longstanding tradition, it isn't even a Japanese one. Sigh.
 
^_^

LOL yeah it's beyond silly.

Japan was at least Semi-Salic law before the Meiji Restoration. And imperial daughters and granddaughters could succeed the throne if there were no suitable male heir. Only one Empress abdicated in favor of her daughter, I forgot their names at the moment. All other Empresses passed on the throne to the next male member.

But these women, after abdicating became "Cloistered Rulers" because Emperors in Japan frequently abdicated once tired of their rule. And they become Cloistered Rulers, and they serve in an advisory capacity, plus they have more influence than the current Emperor. And they had the power to admonish an Emperor they do not see fit to rule. Empress Go-Sakuramachi as a cloistered ruler admonished Emperor Kokaku because of a scandal.

Anyway, that's how I understood how it worked back then, based on what I've read on the Imperial line history. It's very complicated.

So, even though it was still in favor of males, the females still had power. Which is more than the current Imperial daughters and granddaughters have.
 
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