Succession and Membership Issues

[Prinsara]

Oh, boy (girl), here we go...

But hasn't this already been debated fairly recently? ...so in theory, they should not have to start from scratch with the extensive deliberations? Or am I wrong?

 

[Friedrich Karl II]

Could it be that there is still a possibility that Aiko will succeed her father?

Not likely. Even if panel and then government decide change agnatic succession to more equal succession (most probable male preference), Aiko hardly has any chances to ascend to Crysanthemum throne. Hisahito would be still after his uncle and father. These line of successions are not usually changed retroactively. So if Aiko is added to line of succession she is after Hisahito.

 

[Prisma]

Younger, more diverse panel tackles imperial succession issue : The Asahi Shimbun

[...]

While the panel sessions will be held behind closed doors, a summary of the minutes will be released about two weeks after a session without identifying who made the remarks.

The panel is expected to hear from experts on the imperial household and Japanese history on creating an imperial succession system that allows for stable continuance of the imperial system.

[...]

After the first session, Seike said his panel would refer to the hearings held in 2016 and 2017 by a separate panel that had been set up to consider what should be done after then Emperor Akihito let it be known that he wanted to abdicate in favor of his eldest son, Naruhito, the current emperor.

Those sessions would be referred to in deciding who to call for expert testimony this time around.

While the present order of imperial succession will not be changed, among the topics to be covered include the possibility of having a female emperor and whether to allow a male emperor whose only tie to the imperial family is through his mother.

The panel will also discuss allowing female imperial family members to remain in the household even after marriage to a commoner and whether to let male members of families that left the imperial household in the past set up a new imperial family as long as their fathers had blood ties to past emperors.

Three panel members are in their 40s, making them younger than those selected for the panel that looked into Akihito's abdication. The panel also has gender parity.

“What is important is to bring together members who hold feelings of the average Japanese citizen," a high-ranking official in the prime minister’s office said about the panel selection. "We felt it would be better to have members who did not have preconceived notions about the imperial household structure and imperial succession.”

Another high-ranking official added that the experts to be called to the hearings will also tend “to be younger because what is to be discussed relates to the future of Japan.”

At the first session, members asked that more women be called to provide expert testimony.

[...]

Editorial: Answer to imperial succession problem must be based on Japan's modern values - The Mainichi

[...]

Behind this procrastination was the vehement opposition to allowing female emperors or emperors from the maternal line -- whose father is not related to an emperor -- that is so deeply rooted among conservatives, who formed the Abe administration's main support base.

The expert committee that has been established under the administration of Abe's successor Prime Minister Yoshihide Suga has six members, two of whom were also on the committee set up to debate now Emperor Emeritus Akihito's abdication. There are some figures raising questions over the closeness between the administration and the committee, and it is indeed very important that the members be able to talk over the succession issue without worrying about the Suga administration's opinions.

According to multiple public opinion polls, support for female emperors or female-line emperors currently hovers around 70%. The expert committee should deepen its discussions on such options with present public attitudes in mind.

One proposal circulating in the ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) is to restore the royal status in men of princely lineages excised from the Imperial Household after World War II. However, it would likely be impossible to gain public understanding for bringing these men back into the line of succession after more than 70 years as regular citizens unschooled in the ways and duties of the Imperial Household.

[...]

In December last year, House of Representatives Speaker Tadamori Oshima stated, "It would be good if the Suga administration could produce an answer to this (the imperial succession) question that could win the public's understanding and sympathy." To make that happen, discussions must be above politics.

Prime Minister Suga should be aware of the heavy responsibility now on his shoulders, and reach a conclusion through broad public debate that can win the support of the Japanese people.

The panel barely started and the government is already prepared to postpone any conclusions due to the House of Representatives' election in the autumn. The frequency of panel sessions is likely to slow down. All experts were appointed outside of specialty in the Imperial system, emphasizing neutrality but also dilutes any conclusions. The panel's eventual report does not require conclusions.

Source: Jiji

Panelists

Mayumi Ohashi, Sophia University, professor of law, teaching General Environmental Law, Administrative Relief Law classes
Atsushi Seike*, former president of Keio University and now head of Promotion and Mutual Aid Corp. for Private Schools of Japan
Tetsuro Tomita, East Japan Railway Co. chairman

Yuri Nakae, actress and author
Yuichi Hosoya, Keio University, professor of international politics. (more info at https://keio.academia.edu/YuichiHosoya/CurriculumVitae)
Midori Miyazaki*, Chiba University of Commerce

* Atsushi Seike and Midori Miyazaki were on the 2016 panel for abdication

 

[Muhler]

Hmm, can we really hope that this panel will actually look serious into the possibility of women ascending the throne?

Wonder if that was the intention?

The odds are 27:1 that a new panel will be appointed once this panel has presented it's report...

Or perhaps PM Suga is a closet-feminist?

 

[Prisma]

FOCUS: Experts see Suga gov't unlikely to approve female monarch - Kyodo News

[...]

The scholars doubt Prime Minister Yoshihide Suga will exert leadership in achieving drastic changes to the current patrilineal male-only imperial succession rule despite a shrinking number of heirs, citing his weak political base, during separate interviews with Kyodo News held recently.

The three academics, who have been involved in past government debate on the future of the imperial family, pointed out that a wide gap will not be narrowed soon between those in favor of women ascending the throne or emperors descending from the maternal line and those against the idea.

[...]

Takashi Mikuriya, 69, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Tokyo, said although many people in Japan believe allowing reigning empresses or emperors from the maternal line will be necessary to secure stable succession, conservatives against such a stance claim the issue "should not be resolved by majority vote."

"I doubt whether Prime Minister Suga has a strong political base to override" resistance from the conservatives, he said.

[...]

Hidehiko Kasahara, 64, a Keio University professor specialized in the history of Japanese politics, blamed Suga's predecessor Shinzo Abe for not addressing the issue despite becoming Japan's longest-serving prime minister in history.

[...]

The current Imperial House Law bans adoption into the royal family. Although it has not gained much public support, some experts call for adopting into the imperial family some male patrilineal descendants of former branches of the imperial family who abandoned their status in 1947.

Akira Momochi, 74, specially appointed professor of politics at Kokushikan University, is among those experts.

As the unbroken patrilineal succession in the world's oldest monarchy has been realized thanks to "grueling efforts of ancestors," the current rule should be maintained and the number of successor candidates should be increased by giving imperial status to male descendants of former branch members, Momochi said.

He said the former branches of the imperial family historically existed to ensure male heirs in the event of a succession crisis, while those families continue to have a close relationship with the current royal family members.

As for an idea of enabling female members of the imperial family to establish their own branches even after marriage to commoners so they can continue to engage in official duties, Kasahara said now is not the right time to discuss the matter.

[...]

Kasahara said the current imperial succession rule that bars women from ascending the throne "has nothing to do with gender discrimination" and that eligibility for successors should be expanded to include female descendants from the male line.

However, Mikuriya acknowledged it is "high time" to abandon the argument that the long-held tradition of the imperial family is above the current global trend of promoting gender equality.

"The imperial family will cease to exist if it is ignored by the public. Therefore, it has no choice but to go along with the global tide (on gender equality) if it is to continue to gain public support," he said.

 

[Muhler]

That's unusually clear talk!

And I think they are spot on.
I think the three scholars feel that the newly appointed committee is on a fools errand. And say so pretty much openly.

Is there any chance that the Japanese people see this as important enough to put public pressure on the government to seriously consider female emperors?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

FOCUS: Experts see Suga gov't unlikely to approve female monarch - Kyodo News

As for an idea of enabling female members of the imperial family to establish their own branches even after marriage to commoners so they can continue to engage in official duties, Kasahara said now is not the right time to discuss the matter.

With a planned marriage between Crown Prince Fumihito's eldest daughter Princess Mako, 29, and her university boyfriend Kei Komuro, 29, failing to get significant public support due to a money scandal involving Komuro's mother, Kasahara said a "negative conclusion" could be drawn on the matter.

Mikuriya also said the controversial marriage plan has "cast a shadow" on debate on the establishment of female branches. "People have been discussing the male partners' position and their treatment within the imperial family. It will become a bottleneck" in the current government panel discussions, he added.

I agree with professors Kasahara and Mikuriya. Sadly, most find it difficult to separate debates over rules from the individuals who will be affected. (Recall how the discussions on female monarchs sharing their rank with their consorts in Denmark became inseparable from discussion of Prince Henrik, or how the discussion on downsizing the British royal family became inseparable from discussion of the Sussexes.)

Unless Kei is able to rehabilitate his image with the public, reform proposals might have better odds to succeed if they are introduced after Mako has married him and exited the imperial family, making it clear that any reforms would not lead to a Prince Kei.

Referring to a House of Representatives election that must be held by October, when the current members' term expires, Mikuriya said, "I recommend we wait for half a year until a government with a strong political foundation will launch a full-fledged study" on ways to ensure stable imperial succession.

The panel barely started and the government is already prepared to postpone any conclusions due to the House of Representatives' election in the autumn. The frequency of panel sessions is likely to slow down. [...]

Good points. Indeed, what reason is there not to postpone until autumn? The discussions may be overdue, but after four years of procrastination I can't imagine it would be more burdensome to delay for another few months to a year. Particularly when it seems to be the only chance to obtain a government that possesses the credibility and political capital necessary for serious discussions on the monarchy.

Honestly, how can any panel reach an unbiased conclusion when the LDP government has stated its position on the issue?

I fully agree, although to be fair to the current government, that appears to be the case to some extent for every imperial panel in recent times (female succession in 2004, female branches in 2011, and abdication in 2016). Based on the media coverage, the fundamental conclusions of those panels were never in doubt in the eyes of observers.

Is there any chance that the Japanese people see this as important enough to put public pressure on the government to seriously consider female emperors?

Unless something tragic happens to Prince Hisahito, which would create urgency, I can't envision this happening in the near future. If the majority of the public strongly felt that females and males should be treated equally, I think there would already have been pressure and the Imperial House Law would already have been amended.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

That's unusually clear talk!

And I think they are spot on.
I think the three scholars feel that the newly appointed committee is on a fools errand. And say so pretty much openly.

Is there any chance that the Japanese people see this as important enough to put public pressure on the government to seriously consider female emperors?

There is a greater chance that one or more of the former Cadet branches will be restored to the line of sucession (regardless of what the public or even the members themselves think about it)...

As i see it, it’s a much greater chance that the next Thai monarch is a female than the next Japanese monarch..

 

[yukari]

I agree with professors Kasahara and Mikuriya. Sadly, most find it difficult to separate debates over rules from the individuals who will be affected. (Recall how the discussions on female monarchs sharing their rank with their consorts in Denmark became inseparable from discussion of Prince Henrik, or how the discussion on downsizing the British royal family became inseparable from discussion of the Sussexes.)

Unless Kei is able to rehabilitate his image with the public, reform proposals might have better odds to succeed if they are introduced after Mako has married him and exited the imperial family, making it clear that any reforms would not lead to a Prince Kei.

(...)

Unless something tragic happens to Prince Hisahito, which would create urgency, I can't envision this happening in the near future. If the majority of the public strongly felt that females and males should be treated equally, I think there would already have been pressure and the Imperial House Law would already have been amended.

Male social climber is still a thing in Japan, marrying a daughter of a prominent figure can be the fastest route to achive a position. Want to be a director of a hospital? Marry the daughter of the previous director. Need a push on your political career? Marry a daughter of known politician. Seriously, you can find more men becoming his father-in-law successor than a woman following her father's footstep, eg daugter of a doctor is more likely to be a wife of a doctor than becoming a doctor herself, it's her husband who will succeed her father's clinic.

There's even one happened within the Imperial family. Dōkyō was said to be the lover of Kōken-tennō. Whether it's true or not, he was promoted rapidly to be Grand Minister and later became Hōō due to their closeness. At one point, he even had tried to ascend the throne by himself. His fall to power happened because the Empress' death.

There is a greater chance that one or more of the former Cadet branches will be restored to the line of sucession (regardless of what the public or even the members themselves think about it)...

As i see it, it’s a much greater chance that the next Thai monarch is a female than the next Japanese monarch..

Agree.
Though more than restoring the former cadet branch fully, adopting male heir from the former cadet branch is more likely (that's how it's been done in the past).

 

[Muhler]

I find the concept of male social climbing interesting.

Surely the women in question know they are courted for their position, rather than for love. I.e. it will be a marriage of convenience.
Do they, so to speak, sell themselves dearly?
Or do they take one for the family? I.e. allowing their father to basically adopt a suitable son-in-law? - After all in Japanese culture you are indebted to your parents.
What is the balance in such a marriage?
The husband is indebted to his wife, for his new position. Does that mean that he will be subservient to his wife? Or will he take the traditional position of the Japanese husband in being the head of the family?
In what happens if she divorce him?

And can we expect Princess Aiko, to be courted by a social climber?

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

Kasahara said the current imperial succession rule that bars women from ascending the throne "has nothing to do with gender discrimination" and that eligibility for successors should be expanded to include female descendants from the male line.

However, Mikuriya acknowledged it is "high time" to abandon the argument that the long-held tradition of the imperial family is above the current global trend of promoting gender equality.

"The imperial family will cease to exist if it is ignored by the public. Therefore, it has no choice but to go along with the global tide (on gender equality) if it is to continue to gain public support," he said.

That quote is an amazing admission, imho. Finally someone in Japan is highlighting that if the IHA, Japanese Government and ultra Conservatives continue on their obsession over the current succession rules and not move with the times, the Japanese Imperial Family will become irrelevant. More of that conversation please!

 

[yukari]

I find the concept of male social climbing interesting.

Surely the women in question know they are courted for their position, rather than for love. I.e. it will be a marriage of convenience.
Do they, so to speak, sell themselves dearly?
Or do they take one for the family? I.e. allowing their father to basically adopt a suitable son-in-law? - After all in Japanese culture you are indebted to your parents.
What is the balance in such a marriage?
The husband is indebted to his wife, for his new position. Does that mean that he will be subservient to his wife? Or will he take the traditional position of the Japanese husband in being the head of the family?
In what happens if she divorce him?

And can we expect Princess Aiko, to be courted by a social climber?

TBF, in Japan (like in any other countries in Asia), it's not unusual for the parents to "pick" the suitable partner for their child. The couple then is introduced and if there's no big deal breaker, they marry. Along the way they will/can learn to respect (and maybe, love) their spouse. It could be like "Hey, I know this nice young man (read: potentially has bright future), do you want to meet him?" For politician, it could be a member in his party. It's "safer" to court the parents than courting the daughter. In many case, the daughter doesn't really mind to be a "typical" wife too.

Add to the problem is family honour. Other than the parents will want their child happiness, there's also this preconception that the child's failure is a shame for the family as a whole. So the parents may do anything not to let it happen or, at the very least, to cover it up from public (hence the hikikomori). The parents' love then turns into saving face as Japanese values their honour among other.

Let's say, Mako married Kei, not long after Kei went bankrupt. How would it look for a daughter of the crown prince living in an LDK with her jobless husband? Either Fumihito would have to keep giving her (them) money or he had to use whatever connection he had crown prince so Kei could get a "respectable" job. And how the public will think about it, especially among the younger generation who's facing a dire employment issue currently happening in Japan? Let's not pretend that Kei would get nothing from his marriage to Mako, at the very least he'll get a golden key to enter high society (=> opportunity). That's why in the past, the husbands were among (former) kuge or daimyo families. Background check is important.

After all, Japan is still operating within "who-know-who". Skip the "after-work-drink" with your colleague or refuse your senpai/senior's invitation to a drink (which you'll be the one who pay), you can forget getting promotion in the near future no matter your achievement (unless you can snatch the sacho/manager's daughter, of course).

Adopting son in law mostly happens in old establishment (by old, I mean centuries old) such as tea house or ryokan. Depend on the type of bussiness they run, the wife still have her own role as okami (proprietress) who takes responsibilities for all matters caused by running their ryokans or restaurants. The son in law usually is picked among employee/apprentice based on his competency/knowledge of the said bussiness. Say, it's wagashi shop, the daughter marries one of the chef then afterward the husband will head the kitchen (wagashi production) while the wife (the daughter of past shop owner) will handle the front store (dealing with customer, finance, etc). When the heir is a son, he has more freedom to pick a wife, but still after (and sometimes even before) they marry, she will undergo training to be an okami (done by her mother in law), but in this case as okami she won't have as much responsibility than the heiress-okami.

The thing is, for some people, marriage is just part of life, something to do when you reach a certain age. And love is not as "glorified" as in the western (it's so weird to say "I love you" to your own parents. A 6 years may say "daisuki, ka-chan" to his mum and she may say it back, but when a 20 years old tells his mum that sentence, he might wish the earth to shallow him while his mum will ask him "what's wrong?" (with frown on her face)). Even saying "daisuki" or "aishiteru" to your spouse is just weird, the more modern couple may choose to use "I love you" instead.

Not to worry though, those stay-at-home wives in those loveless marriages are not always the innocent "victim" in this kind of "arrangement". There's a relatively new Japanese expression "heijitsu hirugao tsuma" which refers to housewives having afternoon affairs while their husband's are working (usually with a younger men).

 

[Muhler]

Most fascinating.

Thank you very much, Yukari, for your thorough explanation.

 

[dgtns]

Inheritance question

Does the IF inherit money from generation to generation.

As Emperor or Crown Prince is there an “Estate” left to children or grandchildren, or to the benefit of married daughters?

I am fascinated by the IF

Greetings to All

 

[Prisma]

Japan mulls maintaining the current order of imperial succession - Kyodo News

[...]

The Japanese government's advisory panel on the issue, chaired by former Keio University President Atsushi Seike, heard from a total of 21 experts from various fields in six meetings from March 23 through Monday, but few were of the opinion that the current order should be changed immediately.

[...]

The results of meetings will be organized into key points including positions on female or matrilineal imperial members in the line of succession, the current rule requiring women marrying commoners to abandon their imperial status, and adoption of male heirs from former branches of the imperial family.

[...]

In the last of the expert meetings on Monday, novelist Risa Wataya said it is with the times to welcome patrilineal imperial succession by women, but expressed more conservative views regarding an emperor descending from the maternal line.

Machiko Satonaka, a manga artist known for depicting female monarchs in her works, agreed it is natural for women from the paternal line to be eligible to succeed the throne.

But Hisashi Matsumoto, a professor of Shinto studies at Kokugakuin University, objected to the idea, saying, "We should refrain from lightly changing rules that are based on historical circumstances," and called matrilineal inheritance "unthinkable."

The six-person government panel, which was formed amid mounting concern over the dwindling number of imperial family members, will hold its seventh meeting on June 16 to discuss the views collected from experts.

Japan Govt to Report to Diet on Imperial Succession in July | Nippon.com

The Japanese government plans to submit a report to the Diet, Japan's parliament, as early as July on ways to ensure stable Imperial succession, government sources said Monday.

[...]

The report will not say whether Japan should accept female emperors or emperors in the maternal bloodline of the Imperial Family, or whether female Imperial Family members should be allowed to establish family branches after marriage, according to the sources.

[...]

Imperial succession issue unlikely to be solved by next election | The Japan Times (requires free membership account)

 

[Muhler]

Hardly surprising unfortunately.

A see-we-are-doing-something-while-doing-nothing panel.

 

[Eloisa]

I think the succession is not a problem now. There are 2 heirs: Akishino and his son.
Hisahito is being raised as the future emperor, so it wouldn't be fair to change the rules during his training. Also, Aiko is 20years and she's not prepared to reign. Personally, I think that rules could be change for the future, without affecting the current heirs. In Sweden the new succession law was backdated and so the crown prince Carl Philip was "dethroned" by his elder sister Victoria. I have never understood why CP was deprived of his right. Norway managed it better, because Haakon remained the crown prince, even if Martha was the 1st child, and new succession law had effects just for the future.

 

[yukari]

I think the succession is not a problem now. There are 2 heirs: Akishino and his son.
Hisahito is being raised as the future emperor, so it wouldn't be fair to change the rules during his training. Also, Aiko is 20years and she's not prepared to reign. (...)

Interesting take.
Yes, Aiko will be 20 this year and she might be in her 30s the law to allow female emperor passed (if it ever happen) and by that time she's lived with the mindset that at some point she would leave the Imperial family, learning to live as commoner instead of as tennō.

At the same time, the opposition towards restoring male from the former imperial branch is that they have lived as commoner all this time so they need to learn how to be royal (in the case of adult male instead of adopting young kids to be trained early)

So yes, it seems that if there is a change of succession law, most likely it will be for Hisahito's children and no Aiko(whatever name she'd pick)-tennō.

Edit: Not that I don't support equality (aka female emperor), but honestly I'm more interested to see Japan first female PM than josei tennō. (Despite the scandal, at least South Korea can claim that they'd elected female President).

 

[Stefan]

I think the succession is not a problem now. There are 2 heirs: Akishino and his son.
Hisahito is being raised as the future emperor, so it wouldn't be fair to change the rules during his training. Also, Aiko is 20years and she's not prepared to reign. Personally, I think that rules could be change for the future, without affecting the current heirs. In Sweden the new succession law was backdated and so the crown prince Carl Philip was "dethroned" by his elder sister Victoria. I have never understood why CP was deprived of his right. Norway managed it better, because Haakon remained the crown prince, even if Martha was the 1st child, and new succession law had effects just for the future.

In Sweden the succession law was already worked out and passed once in Parliament (it had to be paseed twice, with a General Election between) when Carl Philip was born, this is the reason that he had to make place for his sister. One can say he was simply born at the wrong time, because if he had born 8 months later the new successon law had been already in force.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I think the succession is not a problem now. There are 2 heirs: Akishino and his son.
Hisahito is being raised as the future emperor, so it wouldn't be fair to change the rules during his training. Also, Aiko is 20years and she's not prepared to reign. Personally, I think that rules could be change for the future, without affecting the current heirs. In Sweden the new succession law was backdated and so the crown prince Carl Philip was "dethroned" by his elder sister Victoria. I have never understood why CP was deprived of his right. Norway managed it better, because Haakon remained the crown prince, even if Martha was the 1st child, and new succession law had effects just for the future.

Welcome to the forum, and thank you for your contribution!

In Sweden, the change to gender equal succession was not backdated; in fact, while it was approved by Parliament in 1979, its effects were delayed until 1980. Nevertheless, Crown Prince Carl Philip (born 1979) was an infant and never knew the difference.

For the most part, I agree that it would probably be unfair to Aiko and Hisahito to disrupt their educations and expectations for the future at this stage of their lives. But moving to increase the number of heirs in the next ten years or so could very well lighten the burden on Hisahito once he begins the search for a suitable consort. As matters stand, I imagine the knowledge that Hisahito's wife will surely be blamed for causing a political storm if she fails to deliver a healthy son will raise the difficulty of finding an acceptable wife.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

An article from The Mainichi in May observed that even experts participating in the public discussions of the government panel were exploiting the unpopularity of Princess Mako's unofficial fiancé Kei Komuro for the purpose of arguing against female-line imperial family membership and succession.

Money row tied to Princess Mako's partner casts shadow over debate on female-line emperors - The Mainichi

At the panel's second meeting on April 8, one of the participants stated, "If a female Imperial Family member got married to a commoner, that man would become a member of the Imperial Household." The expert, though not naming Komuro specifically, apparently had him in mind when expressing reservations about female emperors and female-line emperors.

The expert also insisted that a way be opened for male-line males of former Imperial branch families deprived of their Imperial status in the wake of World War II to be reinstated to the Imperial Household, arguing, "If we were to accept men who had heretofore no ties to the Imperial Household into the Imperial Family, then there should be no problem to readmit those who used to be part of the Imperial Family."

Professor Hidetsugu Yagi of Reitaku University also told reporters following the April 8 meeting, "Imperial succession by female-line emperors means, for example, a child born to Princess Mako and her husband would become the emperor. If you imagine that kind of specific scenario, then you will be able to understand what it means to allow Imperial succession by emperors of female lineage."

[...]

One source close to the government indicated concern that conservatives citing the financial dispute in their arguments against female-line emperors would adversely impact debate on stabilizing the Imperial succession.

"Komuro's case may be easy to understand, but it is a special case," they commented.​

Should Prince Hisahito become engaged to a controversial woman in the future, for some reason I doubt that these same experts will be prepared to argue that men should leave the imperial family on marriage and male succession should be banned...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Another article covering the same issue:

FOCUS: Japan princess' boyfriend made issue in imperial succession debate

To help ensure stable succession, LDP conservatives have called for enabling unmarried male patrilineal descendants of former imperial branches to join the imperial family through adoption or marriage, if they want to. The current Imperial House Law bans adoption into the royal family.

Members of the 11 former branches who share with the imperial family a common ancestor some 600 years ago abandoned their status in 1947, two years after the end of World War II.

[Journalist Yoshiko Sakurai, one of the 21 experts] argued that if one agreed with the idea of a commoner joining the imperial family through marriage, one would have no reason to object to the conservatives' counterproposal.

"If it is acceptable for a person who has never been a member of the imperial family to become one because he has married a female member, why is it strange for a person who was a member of the imperial family only a few decades ago to return?"​

I would say that it would be strange because a person who abandoned their royal status in 1947 would be 74 years old this year at the youngest, and the addition of more men who are in their mid-70s or older will not help to ensure a stable supply of heirs or working royals as the family shrinks over the coming decades.

Being a patrilineal descendant of a former member of the imperial family is clearly not the same as being a former member of the imperial family.

My own question would be "If it is acceptable for a person who has never been a member of the imperial family to become one because she has married a male member, why is it strange for a person who has never been a member of the imperial family to become one because he has married a female member?"

Top government spokesman Katsunobu Kato said he'd like the panel to "take discussions deeper beyond personal cases."​

I agree with the government. Those seizing on Mako's choice of partner to make the case against female succession, or in favor of bypassing the Akishino branch for Aiko or former branch families, should remember that Hisahito may become engaged to a person who is strongly opposed by the public, Aiko may become engaged to a person who is strongly opposed by the public, and the boys and young men from the former imperial branch families may become engaged to people who are strongly opposed by the public.

"Within the ruling party, there is a longing for (Princess Aiko) to ascend the throne," a senior government official said, referring to the Liberal Democratic Party headed by Prime Minister Yoshihide Suga.

Several experts also hinted at support for Princess Aiko's ascension during the meetings, with one going as far as saying, "There are many people who say the world would become a brighter place if (she) became (reigning) empress."

Over 60 percent of the 21 experts voiced support for allowing female monarchs, but some members with conservative views strongly opposed the idea.​

I wonder if the "senior government official" is stressing the absence of a consensus to justify not attempting to restore former patrilineal branches.

 

[Prisma]

Japan to Discuss 2 Proposals to Tackle Shrinking Imperial Family | Nippon.com

A Japanese government panel tasked with considering ways to ensure stable Imperial succession has agreed that it will mainly discuss two proposals for securing enough number of Imperial Family members.

At the eighth meeting of the panel on Wednesday, participants agreed that they will mainly discuss a plan to allow female members to retain their Imperial Family status after getting married, and a plan to use the adoption system to restore the Imperial Family status of male descendants in the family's paternal line who have left the family.

[...]

 

[Muhler]

That panel is in line with the national-conservatives views.

Women are allowed back in the fold if they have a son - otherwise they are no doubt still out.

And if they won't return to the imperial family they can give up a son for adoption.

Because daughters cannot, will not, must not, shall not ascend the throne. Never ever, no.

 

[yukari]

(...)

Women are allowed back in the fold if they have a son - otherwise they are no doubt still out.

And if they won't return to the imperial family they can give up a son for adoption.

(...)

I'm sorry, Muhler, but where did you read this?

 

[Muhler]

I'm sorry, Muhler, but where did you read this?

That's my interpretation of the purpose of the panels.

The two proposed alternatives are exactly what the national conservatives advocate.
- And they have decisive political influence at present...

 

[yukari]

What the traditionalist want is paternal line, so even if the princesses have son, he will be of maternal line. Besides, this said son would only be born after marriage, so if the princesses leave the IF after marriage and return after have son, wouldn't it only make things complicated?

What they might aim is probably similar to BRF, the princesses remain member and continue doing royal duty after marriage, but not her husband and children (similar to Margaret and Anne of Britain). The option of princess creating new branch would lead to concern over budget.

As for the adoption, it could be something like Prince Hitachi adopts a son from the former miyake to be the 2nd prince of Hitachi. (Something similar could be arranged for Mikasa).

Then about the problem about what if Hisahito doesn't have son, I'm pretty sure the IHA would be ready to shove IVF sex selection if necessary since there's no rule that the heir should be conceived naturally.

 

[Muhler]

Alas, if there is one thing this thread has taught us, it is that they simply do not want a woman on the throne.

Because it sure is complicated to find an heir in a now disused branch, so to speak. It's someone who is not prepared for the role, who is unknown to the public and who may not be particularly keen on suddenly becoming the next emperor.
And formally adopting a son, that's really only for a true emergency when there are no one left in Imperial family fit to rule.
It has even been suggested that an official concubine could be a solution.

- So it takes a lot of arguments to persuade me from believing this isn't about a total unwillingness to see a woman on the throne. And that IMO is silly.
Especially when the current Imperial Couple have a daughter in perfect working order.
It simply makes no logic sense.

As you point out: What is the difference between a daughter of the Empress and the son of an ex-princess? They are both of a maternal line.
Except for one little difference: One is a male.

So my previous argument stands: No woman must ever ascend the throne.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The point yukari was making was that the traditionalists are unwilling to see a woman or a son from a maternal line on the throne.

The article which Prisma posted makes clear that only restoration of paternal-line male descendants is being contemplated by the panel, not maternal-line male descendants:

"At the eighth meeting of the panel on Wednesday, participants agreed that they will mainly discuss a plan to allow female members to retain their Imperial Family status after getting married, and a plan to use the adoption system to restore the Imperial Family status of male descendants in the family's paternal line who have left the family."

What is the difference between a daughter of the Empress and the son of an ex-princess? They are both of a maternal line.
Except for one little difference: One is a male.

The traditionalists are opposed to allowing either one on the throne. In the same way that Westerners who want to keep male-only or male-preference succession claim that the children of Queen Margrethe II are "Monpezats" and not "real Glücksburgs" or the children of Crown Princess Victoria are "Westlings" and not "real Bernadottes", Japanese proponents of male-only succession claim that a reigning empress's or blood princess's child would belong to a different family, that is, the family of their father, and not to the imperial line (unless the father of the child happened to descend in paternal line from the imperial family).

 

[Muhler]

The traditionalist have actually proposed accepting a son from a maternal line, by all accounts despite having closer female alternatives.
The suggestion can hardly be interpreted as anything than that the emperor of Japan must be just that, a man.

I must confess that I have never heard anyone arguing that descendants of QMII are not "genuine" Glücksburgers. On the contrary in fact.
It is probably possible to find one or two on an island somewhere who believe that though, so I'll take your argument.

But the topic remains the same.
The traditionalists are saying: Of course we don't mind a female ruling empress - just not on the throne...
So we propose option A. B, C... M, N, O, P - before that happens.
Instead of following the genes, which according to the traditionalists own wish about maintaining the Imperial Line as pure as possible, would be the most logic step.

So I have an Eiffel Tower for sale for anyone who genuinely believe this isn't about gender.

I say: Traditionalists, say openly you don't want a woman on the throne. That at least is honest.

There is one alternative the traditionalist have not considered though: Putting the question up for a referendum. ?
Wonder why...