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  #821  
Old 10-11-2012, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I don't think you can impose British or other European practices on a country which has an entirely different history and culture. Calling it ridiculous is a bit much.
Who told you to impose the British monarchy practice: I just gave an example..
After all..every monarchy, how much ever differnt it is, follows the same principle right..that eldest one succeds and so on..Its just that in Japan daughters are "dissociated"..So I am suggesting instead of doing that, let them have their royal status forever,make them work in case of shortage, but keep their hubbies and kids out..Simple
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:14 PM
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Come on, they are not going to be empresses some day and cannot pass their rights to their children because they have no such rights but are they going to pass their titles and special status to their children and fiurther descendants? I think that something is not right here. They should give women rights to the throne first. An European example of a female royal passing the royal status to her children is Princess Astrid of Belgium. But her husband is also a Royal and Belgium is a different world to Japan.
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  #823  
Old 10-11-2012, 03:15 PM
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Well you are the one who said the British example would be perfect for Japan.
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  #824  
Old 10-11-2012, 03:21 PM
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Am I the one? :>
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  #825  
Old 10-11-2012, 03:25 PM
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Well I guess I am the one..Ok I take refugee in the enormous difference between "suggesting" and "imposing" a model..
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  #826  
Old 10-11-2012, 04:11 PM
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However, you're missing a vital point with this issue - if the little prince doesn't have children or bear a male heir, there are no further males in the line of succession. Merely allowing current and future princesses to keep their titles is not enough. The British system keeps Zara and Peter Phillips in the line of succession, even though their mother is a Princess of Great Britain and they are untitled and regarded as commoners. If circumstances (albeit rare) are such, Zara could technically inherit the throne. None of the Princesses of Japan are in the line of succession and cannot become Empress Regent of Japan.

Currently when the current crop of HIH Princesses marry, they leave the royal family and their children are out of the line of succession. This current practice is making the line of succession in Japan extinct. The changes to succession needs to include provisions if Hishaito does not have any male heirs. It's not just about workload.

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Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
Who told you to impose the British monarchy practice: I just gave an example..
After all..every monarchy, how much ever differnt it is, follows the same principle right..that eldest one succeds and so on..Its just that in Japan daughters are "dissociated"..So I am suggesting instead of doing that, let them have their royal status forever,make them work in case of shortage, but keep their hubbies and kids out..Simple
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  #827  
Old 10-11-2012, 04:20 PM
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Hmmm..ok thanks fr the clarification..But will the problem of succession be solved by letting females form their branches? It will again come to..letting the eldest female (or her son) ascend if there are no males..right? Then anyways the purpose of "preserving the male line' will not be served.. So why dont they simply start allowing female children to succeed to throne on basis of "male primogeniture"..
And by the way, the news item does mention its all to keep the number of royals who assist the emperor.Anyway..
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  #828  
Old 10-11-2012, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
Hmmm..ok thanks fr the clarification..But will the problem of succession be solved by letting females form their branches? It will again come to..letting the eldest female (or her son) ascend if there are no males..right? Then anyways the purpose of "preserving the male line' will not be served.. So why dont they simply start allowing female children to succeed to throne on basis of "male primogeniture"..
And by the way, the news item does mention its all to keep the number of royals who assist the emperor.Anyway..
The problem will not be solved but it will be a step in the right direction. For the first time, females of the Imperial Family will be treated as equals of men, or at least, close to it. They'll still be barred from succeeding to the Throne or passing succession rights to their descendants (male or female).

The thing is, if the current situation continues, there will simply not be enough members of the Imperial Family to adequately support the Emperor (current and future). Think of it: of the nine children or young adults in the Imperial Family, only one is a male - Prince Hisahito. If all the other females marry and leave the Imperial Family, in addition of the burden of being the sole heir, Hisahito will also have to carry out the bulk of official engagements in future.

Allowing females form their own branches (even if for one generation only, without the ability to pass their styles and titles to their descendants) will mean they'll officially remain part of the Imperial Family. They'll know that their life will be dedicated to serving the country and the Emperor. Mind you, there is no guarantee the Princesses would want that anyway; most of them grew up they'll eventually leave the Imperial Family upon marriage, and probably have plans of their own.
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  #829  
Old 10-11-2012, 07:53 PM
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When a male member of the Imperial Family receives his own title and mon (emblem) he is also authorised to start his own branch of the Imperial Family. This often happens on the Prince's marriage, e.g. on his marriage Prince Fumihito (Fumihito Shinnō) became Prince Akishino (Akishino-no-miya Fumihito Shinnō) with the authority to start a new branch of the Imperial Family. Prince Yoshihito received the title Prince Katsura just before his 40th birthday, and the authorisation to start his own branch of the Imperial Family. However soon after he had a stroke and now uses a wheelchair. So I would not not read too much into the terminology of "new branch" of the Imperial Family.

I think the current proposal would just see a Princess receiving her own title and mon upon marriage, e.g. Princess Mako (Mako Naishinnō) might become, to use an extinct branch of the Imperial Family, Princess Chichibu (Chichibu-no-miya Mako Naishinnō). This, in theory, makes her the head of a new branch of the Imperial Family, a branch that will end with her death. I do not know if her husband could receive a title, something equivalent to Prince Consort? I think reviving one of the titles from the old Japanese peerage would be too controversial, not to mention possibly unconstitutional (the peerage was abolished in 1947).

Such a proposal is certainly going to bolster the numbers of the Imperial Family who can carry out public engagements. It would also put an end to the semi-fiction that former princesses are commoners. The recent inauguration of Mrs Sayako Kuroda as a priestess at the Grand Shrine in Ise shows that even without an Imperial title, the former princess can still carry out the traditional activities of members of the Imperial Family. But of course, anything that involves Shintoism is in a mine field all of its own.
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  #830  
Old 10-12-2012, 12:37 PM
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Great posts, CrownPrincessJava, Artemisia and TomBert!

The comparison of the Japanese situation to the British is misleading because the family patterns in both countries are strikingly different. The idea of the Japanese system is: either you are in a family or out of it. There is nothing in between. Insofar, the rule that says that imperial princesses leave the imperial family and lose their status upon marriage is absolutely consistent. Once they are out, they are out for good. They cannot represent the imperial family any longer because they do not belong to it any more. In contrast, the British system offers many possibilities of being “in-between”: for example, the daughter of a duke could, upon marriage to a Mr Smith, become (for example) Lady Mary Smith. That means that she still in a way retains her title and her status while, at the same time, she takes her husband´s name. Her name is a mixture that shows both connections. Also, Princess Anne can be married to an untitled commoner and still remain a royal princess. To take another example: when Queen Victoria´s daughter Vicky married Frederick of Prussia, she became a princess of Prussia and later empress, but she still remained a princess of the British empire. Within the Japanese system, this is normally not possible. You are either one or the other, either the daughter of your father or the wife of your husband (system-wise, I mean, the emotional bond will, of course, remain also in Japan).

That is also why it would be very odd (according to Japanese standards) if the princesses were allowed to keep their status but their husbands and children had to remain commoners. In Japan, every family has their own koseki (family register). Normally, everyone on a koseki must have the same last name. If the princesses did not have the same status as their husbands and children, they would probably have a koseki of their own and their husbands and children another - which would be a complete anomaly. It would be possible, of course, but it would be very complicated as the koseki Family Registration System still plays an important role in Japan. If the princesses are required to continue with royal duties after marriage, the simplest and easiest way (under Japanese conditions) would be to give the husbands and children imperial status, too, and let the children become commoners upon marriage. The Asahi Shimbun wrote:
Quote:
The government has come up with three proposals with regard to the pros and cons of allowing female members of the imperial family to maintain their status after marrying commoners. [...] Given the sensitivity of the matter, the government was careful not to step on any toes. Still, its proposals are hardly clear-cut. This is a matter on which the Japanese people have all sorts of opinions. [...]

The proposals are as follows:

(1) Female members establish their own imperial branches upon marriage to commoners and retain their imperial status. Their spouses and children will also be treated as members of the imperial family, but the children will lose their imperial status when they marry.

(2) Female members establish their own imperial branches upon marriage to commoners, but their spouses and children will not be treated as members of the imperial family.

(3) Female members will lose their imperial status upon marriage to commoners, but will become "special civil servants" to assist imperial family members in their activities. [...]

The first proposal is probably the easiest to digest.

The second proposal generates different statuses and treatments among immediate family members, and that could be awkward.

The third proposal emerged rather abruptly in the final stages of the government's consultation with experts. As such, it is only a bare-bones proposal that needs to be fleshed out further.
I hope I have succeeded in making it clear why the Asahi Shimbun says that “The first proposal is probably the easiest to digest.”


***


Here is another interesting excerpt of the quoted article:
Quote:
Some of the experts who were consulted voiced alarm at the possibility of a woman starting an imperial bloodline. [...] Most of these experts believe in upholding this tradition and keeping the imperial family at the current scale by allowing the adoption of male descendants of imperial family branches that were discontinued after World War II.

This scenario, however, is hardly likely to be acceptable to the general public. For one, it raises a number of tough questions, among which would be who, and from which defunct branches, should qualify for adoption. Such discussions may only make the public feel more distant from the imperial family. [...] In the future, the time may come when the issue of imperial succession will have to be addressed in earnest. When that time comes, the people could surely explore the alternatives available and make their decision.

The present generation should see to it that the next generation will be left with choices. We believe this is the attitude with which we should discuss the matter.
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  #831  
Old 10-12-2012, 03:12 PM
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Thanks for your detailed explanation on how japanese system differs from British, especially reg. 'in-between's.
And even I consider the first option to be the most advisable.
Bringing the now-defunct branches is a very very ill-advised idea. It will be like going into backward ages.People will never be able to connect to them. It will also dilute the charisma of the present Emperor and his descendants.
Allowing princesses to set up their own branches is ok, as long as their kids are again 'disowned' at the time of their weddings..
PS:Royal "crowds" always irritate people. British are ok with the crowd bcos they know very well the Kents, Gloucesters, and even the Yorks will move out, sooner or later..
I hope these princesses work as sincerely as Princess Anne , Mahachakri etc, and bring good name to JRF
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  #832  
Old 10-12-2012, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
Thanks for your detailed explanation on how japanese system differs from British, especially reg. 'in-between's.
You are very welcome! Thank you for mentioning it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
And even I consider the first option to be the most advisable.
Bringing the now-defunct branches is a very very ill-advised idea. It will be like going into backward ages.People will never be able to connect to them. It will also dilute the charisma of the present Emperor and his descendants.
I quite agree. Besides, concerning the succession issue, there has been so much said about things being "unprecedented": a female-line emperor, a husband who gets imperial status via his wife... That is admittedly true, although it has to be said that breaking precedents is not always bad (even in Japan ): a commoner getting to be empress consort has been unprecedented, too, until quite recently, but as it turns out, Empress Michiko is very well respected.

This being said, I think it should be mentioned that commoners becoming imperial princes (which is what would happen if the descendants of former royals got imperial status) is completely unprecedented, too, in Japan´s history. From a European point of view, such an act may not look overly remarkable - we are used to reading about people like William the Conqueror or Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte in our textbooks. But actually, in Japan there has never been such an occurence of a commoner or even a noble getting to be emperor.
It was possible for an imperial prince to "descend" to being a noble, but not for a noble to "ascend" to being an imperial prince.

Besides, the members of the former royal branches are but very remotely related to the present imperial family as they are descendants of an emperor who occupied the throne around 600 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
Allowing princesses to set up their own branches is ok, as long as their kids are again 'disowned' at the time of their weddings..
PS:Royal "crowds" always irritate people. British are ok with the crowd bcos they know very well the Kents, Gloucesters, and even the Yorks will move out, sooner or later..
I think that is why the government plans to give the option to stay only to the granddaughters of the emperor but not to the five granddaughters of Prince Mikasa.
On the other hand, judging from past events, it is rather unlikely that there will be an imperial "crowd" any time soon. Two of Emperor Hirohito´s three brothers as well as Emperor Akihito´s only brother and only daughter have remained childless. And, as everyone knows, the present crown prince has but one daughter although it can safely be assumed that he and his wife have been desperately trying to have more children. So, it would be wise to be prepared for just in case ... it definitely is possible that Hisahito would remain childless - as it has happened before.

I think this is one reason more why the children of the princesses should be given imperial status - if, for example, Hisahito should produce but one child, they would have the option then to again change the law and let the children of the princesses remain in the family, too, in order to support Hisahito´s successor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkrish View Post
I hope these princesses work as sincerely as Princess Anne , Mahachakri etc, and bring good name to JRF
I am confident that they will. Of course, two of them are still minor, so it is maybe a bit early to talk about them in terms of performing royal duties. But I happen to be really fond of twenty-year-old Princess Mako´s poise and intelligence. (pic 1, pic2)
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  #833  
Old 10-12-2012, 04:26 PM
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They better come up with a plan soon because it is not unthinkable that the Imperial Family may well become extinct. Right now its hopes of survival rest on one little boy with no guarantees that he will be able to continue the line.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:33 PM
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Japan's PM Noda dissolves parliament, paving way for election his party is likely to lose
Quote:
Elections were set for Dec. 16. [...] The opposition Liberal Democratic Party, which led Japan for most of the post-World War II era, is in the best position to take over. The timing of the election likely pre-empts moves by more conservative challengers, including former Tokyo Mayor Shintaro Ishihara, to build up electoral support. [...] Noda's most likely successor is LDP head and former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.
Star Tribune

That means, regarding the status of the princesses, we are, in all probability, back to square one. Abe, being extremely conservative, will strictly oppose female-headed branches. The other possibilities (for example, princesses as servants of state) are hardly practical, but it is, on the other hand, highly improbable that Abe would get a majority to bring back the former collateral branches. Accordingly, there is not much hope that there will be a satisfying solution to this issue in the near future.
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  #835  
Old 11-18-2012, 01:25 AM
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I read most of this but am not up on it very well. It seems to me that,as the Imperial Family is nearly extinct, its fortunes riding on one little boy, they have to allow female empresses. As in the most obvious, Aiko. Otherwise, just plan on the end of the family. What woman would marry the little boy when grows up, knowing that she was even more burdened to produce a male heir than her mother in law and aunt in law? It seems the family has become one of those rare families in which almost all children are one sex or another. I do not know if geneticists have figured this one out. But the family was inbred until modern times, and in such cases, bringing children to live birth can be difficult; female babies are more likely to survive than male ones, just because nature has given them an advantage in this. So if this is the case, there may continue to be predominantly female births.
Now take my "working class" great grandma who came to America in the Irish potato famine. She not only survived the boat trip to America in freezing conditions, but she had fourteen sons. No girls. Maybe just because she was tough as nails and healthy as a horse.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariel1
I read most of this but am not up on it very well. It seems to me that,as the Imperial Family is nearly extinct, its fortunes riding on one little boy, they have to allow female empresses. As in the most obvious, Aiko. Otherwise, just plan on the end of the family. What woman would marry the little boy when grows up, knowing that she was even more burdened to produce a male heir than her mother in law and aunt in law? It seems the family has become one of those rare families in which almost all children are one sex or another. I do not know if geneticists have figured this one out. But the family was inbred until modern times, and in such cases, bringing children to live birth can be difficult; female babies are more likely to survive than male ones, just because nature has given them an advantage in this. So if this is the case, there may continue to be predominantly female births.
Now take my "working class" great grandma who came to America in the Irish potato famine. She not only survived the boat trip to America in freezing conditions, but she had fourteen sons. No girls. Maybe just because she was tough as nails and healthy as a horse.
The sex of the children is determined by the father, not the mother, and your great grandmother's health had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that she had sons.

I agree with you about the Imperial family's need to adapt though. Personally, I'd love to see equal primogeniture applied and Aiko allowed to inherit.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:59 AM
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HRHHermionie, you are right. I got to thinking how it was not my great grandmother but her husband who determined their children's gender. Likewise, it is the royal sons of the Imperial Family who are determining the mostly female children born to the family. If Aiko were to marry "outside" the family and have children, probably there would be a better chance of producing boys.
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:02 AM
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I agree with you about the Imperial family's need to adapt though. Personally, I'd love to see equal primogeniture applied and Aiko allowed to inherit.
Some people at “The Royal Watcher” obviously think the same as you , see here and here (scroll down).

There also seem to be people in Japan who dream of a reigning Empress Aiko, as these pictures seem to indicate. Mind you, I cannot read Japanese, so I do not know what is written there. But the picture to the right obviously shows Aiko as she is now, playing the violin and the piano, being a fan of Sumo and running at a school event, and I suppose to the left this would be Aiko as a grown up woman and empress. (Compare: Empress Michiko in full attire)

Japanese article about Aiko

Recent pic of Aiko
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  #839  
Old 11-18-2012, 07:15 AM
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I hope one day little prince Hisahito of Akishino will be an emperor. Very lively boy.
One child in family and mother with mental problems are bad combination for future head of state
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:05 AM
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In all probability, your wish will be granted anyway, no matter what anybody here thinks.

This being said, I have to disagree. You would not call it the best starting conditions imaginable either if your father beheaded your mother and disowned you. Still, Elizabeth I became one of the great monarchs in British history (or even in the world´s history).
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