The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #781  
Old 05-28-2012, 10:48 AM
Al_bina's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: City, Kazakhstan
Posts: 5,884

Dear mariaantoniapia
Thanks a lot for your very informative posts! They are indispensable for understanding dynamics of the succession line in the Japanese Imperial family.
__________________

__________________
"I never did mind about the little things"
Amanda, "Point of No Return"
Reply With Quote
  #782  
Old 05-28-2012, 01:18 PM
Esmerelda's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,215
I understood your answer perfectly, mariaantoniapia. Thank you for sharing your point of view.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #783  
Old 05-28-2012, 01:49 PM
ChiaraC's Avatar
Aristocracy
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariaantoniapia View Post
Mr Takeda apparently wrote in a Shinto magazine (January 1, 2009) that he knew there was a man who was preparing to drive into the PM's residence in a lorry with 10 tons of gun powder and for this kind of man, Koizumi was worthy target to be assassinated because he was going to make the male imperial line extinct.

I am sorry my translation is not very good but I hope you get a gist of it.

In my opinion, too, Mr Takeda should have been interviewed by the police because he knew of a man was was a potential terrorist. Anyway, this kind of opinion of his gives him and his belief such a discredit because ..., who wants a man who advocate the assassination of a politician (in thiss case then-the PM) to become their emperor ? It gives me a chill and I will have such a great difficulty to respect and admire such an emperor or an emperor who is supported by such a belief.
That is quite understandable. Frankly, I sometimes think that the strict neutrality that the Japanese royals are bound to observe may be a little bit exaggerated. In my opinion, the monarch of a country should not meddle with daily politics or party politics, but he (or she) should have the right to remind the nation of its key values. Obviously, it takes a honorable personality who is worthy of trust and respect to fulfill such a task. But, at present, Japan is so lucky as to have such personalities on the throne and as heir apparent.

I think the moral standards for a royal should be higher than for an “ordinary” person. But Takeda does not even meet average standards. I would not want to have such a person as my neighbour, as my working colleague or as the teacher of my children. So I have absolutely no hard time understanding that you do not want him as your emperor. I suppose, few people would.

And even if the danger is small, I must say, it would be bad enough to have him as an imperial prince, in a similar position to that of Prince Akishino. I really hope it never happens, and I am confident that it won´t, except in case one of the princesses should take the unfortunate decision to marry him...
__________________
"In order to make the area inhabitable again, we face the difficult problem of removing radiation." - Emperor Akihito

(Following recent incidents, I would like to refer anybody who may think the emperor´s statement obvious or redundant to this thread, post #682.)
Reply With Quote
  #784  
Old 05-28-2012, 02:09 PM
ChiaraC's Avatar
Aristocracy
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariaantoniapia View Post
I personally think it is good if Aiko was allowed to become the Crown Princess in due course because it is only natural for most people in Japan if she succeeded her father Naruhito. There are two opinions in Japan: one is a josei tenno or a female emperor and another is a nyokei tenno or matrilineal emperor. Some people support the possibility of josei tenno but oppose the idea of nyokei tenno. In history of Japan, there were eight women who became Josei Tenno but no nyokei tenno. However, many people are not always sure about the different between the Josei Tenno and Nyokei Tenno.

I support both ideas of the Josei Tenno and the Nyokei Tenno and I would oppose the idea of forcing Aiko or any other princesses to marry a male descendant of an old miyake. It all seems so unnatural.
Thank you for giving your opinion on the succession issue. To me, like to the other members here, it is absolutely clear what you want to express. And if I, as a non-native speaker in English, have the right to say this, I would like to add that your English is excellent.

I hope, too, that the Imperial Household Law will be changed. But from what I see, I receive the impression that the fact that there are opposing opinions is completely blocking reform and may even lead to a situation where the imperial household will hardly be able to fulfill its functions. I have the impression that the government is constantly minimizing the extent of the reform in order to avoid trouble with the conservative minority and that every step backwards is making the much-needed reform less effective. I am afraid, that in the end, nothing will happen, or at the utmost, the princesses may be allowed to keep their titles but not their status, which would, for sheer practical reasons, be by far not sufficient.

Do you have more confidence in the resolution of the government to tackle the issue than I have?
__________________
"In order to make the area inhabitable again, we face the difficult problem of removing radiation." - Emperor Akihito

(Following recent incidents, I would like to refer anybody who may think the emperor´s statement obvious or redundant to this thread, post #682.)
Reply With Quote
  #785  
Old 05-28-2012, 03:15 PM
Esmerelda's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,215
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiaraC

And even if the danger is small, I must say, it would be bad enough to have him as an imperial prince, in a similar position to that of Prince Akishino. I really hope it never happens, and I am confident that it won´t, except in case one of the princesses should take the unfortunate decision to marry him...
How old is Takeda? Middle-aged? The oldest of the Emperor's granddaughters is 20 which is a bit too young for him, I think. Hopefully it will never happen.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #786  
Old 05-28-2012, 03:20 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esmerelda View Post
How old is Takeda? Middle-aged? The oldest of the Emperor's granddaughters is 20 which is a bit too young for him, I think. Hopefully it will never happen.
He is 36 years old.
A most unpleasant man, by all accounts.
Reply With Quote
  #787  
Old 05-28-2012, 03:33 PM
ChiaraC's Avatar
Aristocracy
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esmerelda View Post
How old is Takeda? Middle-aged? The oldest of the Emperor's granddaughters is 20 which is a bit too young for him, I think. Hopefully it will never happen.
As mentioned before, in a Japanese forum I have found a pic of Takeda posted together with that of Princess Akiko of Mikasa. (She is 30, and she seems to sympathize with the idea to preserve the male line at all costs.) From the comments in that forum I got the impression that the two had some sort of relationship. But as mariaantoniapia seems to never have heard of that, maybe it is not true. Hopefully...
__________________
"In order to make the area inhabitable again, we face the difficult problem of removing radiation." - Emperor Akihito

(Following recent incidents, I would like to refer anybody who may think the emperor´s statement obvious or redundant to this thread, post #682.)
Reply With Quote
  #788  
Old 05-28-2012, 04:46 PM
Esmerelda's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,215
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiaraC
As mentioned before, in a Japanese forum I have found a pic of Takeda posted together with that of Princess Akiko of Mikasa. (She is 30, and she seems to sympathize with the idea to preserve the male line at all costs.) From the comments in that forum I got the impression that the two had some sort of relationship. But as mariaantoniapia seems to never have heard of that, maybe it is not true. Hopefully...
Oh, I'd forgotten about Princess Akiko. Much smaller age gap too. Eek.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #789  
Old 05-29-2012, 05:23 AM
Furienna's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 1,225
How closely related is Princess Akiko to the emperor though?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #790  
Old 05-29-2012, 06:55 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furienna View Post
How closely related is Princess Akiko to the emperor though?
She is emperor's uncle's granddaughter. So, the emperor's cousin's daughter whereas Aiko, Mako and Kako are the emepror's granddaughters.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #791  
Old 05-29-2012, 03:30 PM
ChiaraC's Avatar
Aristocracy
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furienna
How closely related is Princess Akiko to the emperor though?
I always find it helpful to take a look at this chart that shows the genealogy of the imperial family. It makes things much clearer, in my opinion. Besides, it gives you an idea regarding how many couples have remained childless in the last two generations...
__________________
"In order to make the area inhabitable again, we face the difficult problem of removing radiation." - Emperor Akihito

(Following recent incidents, I would like to refer anybody who may think the emperor´s statement obvious or redundant to this thread, post #682.)
Reply With Quote
  #792  
Old 05-30-2012, 07:04 AM
Furienna's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
Posts: 1,225
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiaraC View Post
I always find it helpful to take a look at this chart that shows the genealogy of the imperial family. It makes things much clearer, in my opinion. Besides, it gives you an idea regarding how many couples have remained childless in the last two generations...
That's a very good chart! I feel like I have very little knowledge about the Japanese imperial family, so things like that sure can be useful some times.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #793  
Old 05-30-2012, 08:40 AM
ChiaraC's Avatar
Aristocracy
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 925
I am glad that it helps.

Of course, the married daughters are not mentioned on the chart but there are not many of them. Apart from former Princess Sayako, there are but two daughters of Prince Mikasa, former Princesses Yasuko and Masako, born 1944 and 1951, respectively. (Here is a picture of Prince and Princess Mikasa with members of their family, obviously also including their daughters with their families. In the first row you will recognize the daughters of Prince Tomohito of Mikasa, Princesses Yohko and Akiko (third and fourth from left).)

Besides, there is a rumour about a twin sister of Prince Mikasa. The Japanese journalist Toshiaki Kawahara maintained in an article written for the periodical “Focus” in the eighties that this sister became the abbess of the Enshō-ji Buddhist temple in Nara. Immediately after birth, she was allegedly given to Viscount Sanemochi Yamamoto to be raised as his daughter. The reason for this was, according to Kawahara, that twins were perceived as a bad omen as usually only animals gave birth to more than one baby at the same time.

However that may be, none of the couples that appear to be without children on the chart have a married daughter. They do not just seem childless, they in fact are.
__________________
"In order to make the area inhabitable again, we face the difficult problem of removing radiation." - Emperor Akihito

(Following recent incidents, I would like to refer anybody who may think the emperor´s statement obvious or redundant to this thread, post #682.)
Reply With Quote
  #794  
Old 05-30-2012, 12:21 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiaraC View Post
I am glad that it helps.

Of course, the married daughters are not mentioned on the chart but there are not many of them. Apart from former Princess Sayako, there are but two daughters of Prince Mikasa, former Princesses Yasuko and Masako, born 1944 and 1951, respectively. (Here is a picture of Prince and Princess Mikasa with members of their family, obviously also including their daughters with their families. In the first row you will recognize the daughters of Prince Tomohito of Mikasa, Princesses Yohko and Akiko (third and fourth from left).)

Besides, there is a rumour about a twin sister of Prince Mikasa. The Japanese journalist Toshiaki Kawahara maintained in an article written for the periodical “Focus” in the eighties that this sister became the abbess of the Enshō-ji Buddhist temple in Nara. Immediately after birth, she was allegedly given to Viscount Sanemochi Yamamoto to be raised as his daughter. The reason for this was, according to Kawahara, that twins were perceived as a bad omen as usually only animals gave birth to more than one baby at the same time.

However that may be, none of the couples that appear to be without children on the chart have a married daughter. They do not just seem childless, they in fact are.
You are very knowledgeable !

Yes, Prince Takamatsu and Prince Chichibu died without any issues. Prince Katsura is unmarried and now disabled without any issues.

I am not sure about the rumour of Prince Mikasa's twin sister who was supposed to have become a nun at the Enshou-ji (d. 1995). Princesses Atsuko and Tomoko (b. 1907) who were born into the House of Fushimi were identical twins but were brought up together as twins. So, if he had a twin sister, then, I don't understand why Prince Mikasa (then the Prince Sumi or Sumi-no-miya)'s sister had to be adopted by the Viscount Yamamoto in Kyoto.

I shall also put a family tree of the Takeda-no-miyake here.



Kitashirakawa-no-miya Yoshihisa Shinnou
:
Takeda-no-miya Tsunehisa Ou (First Takeda-no-miya)
:
Tsuneyoshi Ou (Second Takeda-no-miya)
:
Tsunetada Ou (1) - Motoko Joou (2) - Noriko Joou (3) - Tsuneharu Ou (4) - Tsunekazu (5)
:
Tsunetaka - Hiroko


Tsunekaru Ou (4)
:
Tsuneaki - Tsunetomo


Tsunekazu (5)
:
Tsuneharu - Tsunetoshi
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #795  
Old 07-04-2012, 08:50 AM
ChiaraC's Avatar
Aristocracy
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariaantoniapia View Post
You are very knowledgeable !
Thank you very much!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariaantoniapia View Post
I am not sure about the rumour of Prince Mikasa's twin sister who was supposed to have become a nun at the Enshou-ji (d. 1995). Princesses Atsuko and Tomoko (b. 1907) who were born into the House of Fushimi were identical twins but were brought up together as twins. So, if he had a twin sister, then, I don't understand why Prince Mikasa (then the Prince Sumi or Sumi-no-miya)'s sister had to be adopted by the Viscount Yamamoto in Kyoto.
I am merely quoting what I have read, and maybe it is not true. But if it should be, maybe it was because at the time, there was still a chance for Prince Mikasa of becoming emperor. From today´s perspective, you would not think it because he had three elder brothers who, as we know now, all reached adulthood, but there was a high mortality rate among children. The Taisho emperor had two elder brothers, too, but they died in infancy. So maybe it was acceptable for a princess of a collateral house to have a twin sister but not for a potential future tenno?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariaantoniapia View Post
I shall also put a family tree of the Takeda-no-miyake here.


Kitashirakawa-no-miya Yoshihisa Shinnou
:
Takeda-no-miya Tsunehisa Ou (First Takeda-no-miya)
:
Tsuneyoshi Ou (Second Takeda-no-miya)
:
Tsunetada Ou (1) - Motoko Joou (2) - Noriko Joou (3) - Tsuneharu Ou (4) - Tsunekazu (5)
:
Tsunetaka - Hiroko


Tsunekaru Ou (4)
:
Tsuneaki - Tsunetomo


Tsunekazu (5)
:
Tsuneharu - Tsunetoshi
Thank you! But, unfortunately, I do not quite understand who is who here. Those:
Tsunetada Ou (1) - Motoko Joou (2) - Noriko Joou (3) - Tsuneharu Ou (4) - Tsunekazu (5)
are obviously the children of the second Takeda-no-miya, but what about the rest?
__________________
"In order to make the area inhabitable again, we face the difficult problem of removing radiation." - Emperor Akihito

(Following recent incidents, I would like to refer anybody who may think the emperor´s statement obvious or redundant to this thread, post #682.)
Reply With Quote
  #796  
Old 07-04-2012, 09:04 AM
ChiaraC's Avatar
Aristocracy
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 925
The sixth expert hearing on the Imperial Household system is scheduled to take place tomorrow. (Source) But judging from the information that is available to me at present I have the strong impression that the government is playing for time. First, there is the obvious fact that the last hearing took place on 22 May. (At the beginning of the hearings it had been said that they should take place once or twice every month.) The second reason is the choice of experts for this sixth hearing. Of course, I do not know for sure what they will say. But I can guess rather easily.

Hidetsugu Yagi, Professor at Takasaki City University of Economics, is the author of a school history textbook critics say whitewashes Japan's wartime past. He was a vocal member of the minority who opposed Koizumi´s plans to change the succession law to enable a woman to take the throne. (That was before Princess Kiko´s third pregnancy became known. At the time, 81% of Japanese adults surveyed in a poll by the Nihon KezaiShimbun newspaper said they wanted to see the Imperial House Law revised to let Princess Aiko become reigning empress.) During one of the hearings that took place at the time, Yagi said that succession only along the male line, supposedly dating back 26 centuries, was part of Japan's "irreplaceable culture."

"If Princess Aiko becomes empress and has a child with an outsider, the bloodline will be broken," Yagi claimed. „This has never happened in history. Some say (Aiko's child) would lose legitimacy. Could we call such a person emperor?"

According to Yagi
, the fact that a huge majority of Japanese were supporting the amendment of the law could be disregarded because, as he said, „capricious public opinion“ was incapable of representing a sufficiently reliable base for the emperor system. Yagi believes the male line must be preserved at all costs, and he proposed broadening the pool of eligible male successors by reinstating one or more of the collateral houses who lost their status in 1947.

It seems to me that, at least at the time, Yagi had still another idea of how to preserve the male line. He strongly criticized Princess Masako, accusing her of having "a strong wish to put priority on other duties, such as travelling overseas, rather than giving birth”. According to Yagi, there were “very few people who actually say the words divorce, but they think it” and he claimed in the beginning of 2006 that Masako´s “withdrawal from the imperial family would certainly solve a lot of problems.” (Yagi did not actually say it, but, obviously, a divorce would have set the crown prince free to find a nice young Fujiwara girl and “try again” for a male heir.)

Isao Tokoro, Professor Emeritus at Kyoto Sangyo University, has conducted extensive research on the imperial family and has spoken before the Prime Minister's Advisory Council on the Imperial Household law in 2005. On the occasion, he said there is "great significance" in the fact that imperial succession from the male line was practiced for more than 1,000 years. But he added it was "impossible" to continue the succession under such restrictions. Although female monarchs should be allowed, males should be given precedence, because women can be expected to perform other "important roles," including bearing children, Tokoro said. "We are discussing the possible change only because of the need to preserve the imperial family, which is totally isolated from the world in which we live. It's not a women's rights issue," he added. (Source)

Already in 1999, Tokoro had emphasized the necessity to start discussions on revising the imperial law which was, according to him, hastily drafted as required by the post-war Constitution and left various problems unattended. (Source) In November 2001, shortly before Princess Aiko was born, Tokoro said, ''Even if the baby is a boy, with only three young male members -- the crown prince, Prince Akishino and the baby -- the imperial succession is not guaranteed.“ (Source) In 2001, he had proposed to reinstate some of the former collateral branches and let them carry on the line.

After Hisahito´s birth, Tokoro suggested Crown Prince Naruhito should formally adopt his little nephew as this would promote a smoother generational transition for the imperial family. In a speech before the Foreign Correspondents Club of Japan in Tokyo, Professor Tokoro wondered how Prince Hisahito could prepare for his role as emperor unless he started at a young age. "Unlike Crown Prince Naruhito, who will head the main family, Prince Akishino, who heads a branch, doesn't have a huge staff. It would come in handy if he had enough staff in charge of his son's education. It would help, for example, if he wants to invite someone to lecture to his son," Tokoro said.

In my opinion, this last idea of Tokoro´s shows that he is a bit out of sync with modern Japan. It is true that, in the Japanese past, adoption was an important instrument that could help to preserve the family line (not only in the imperial family). But, at the time, imperial children were being raised by foster parents whereas, today, they live with their natural parents. It would be unthinkable to take Hisahito away from Prince and Princess Akishino to be raised by the crown prince and princess. I am sure that everybody concerned would have been rendered very unhappy by the arrangement. And in case that the adoption should actually have been a mere formality and Hisahito should have continued to live with his parents, we would have had the absurd situation of Hisahito not officially belonging to the family he lives with and him ranking above his father and mother.

Summing all things up, it seems rather probable that, tomorrow, Yagi as well as Tokoro will again bring up the idea of the reinstatement of the former collateral branches. Mind you, I do not think that this proposal has a chance of actually being realized, for several reasons. (Just for example, it would open another can o´ worms to determine who should get back royal status and who should stay a commoner. They cannot bring back all of them, for simple monetary reasons.) But the statements of the experts will give the government a good reason to say that there is more controversy than expected and that they need more time to thoroughly discuss the matter. (Obviously, it is up to the government to decide whom they ask and at what time. They need not, at this moment, have invited two experts whose opinion is so predictably against the planned changes.) Prime Minister Noda will soon step down – and it seems to me that he silently thinks: “Après moi le déluge!”
__________________
"In order to make the area inhabitable again, we face the difficult problem of removing radiation." - Emperor Akihito

(Following recent incidents, I would like to refer anybody who may think the emperor´s statement obvious or redundant to this thread, post #682.)
Reply With Quote
  #797  
Old 07-07-2012, 10:12 AM
ChiaraC's Avatar
Aristocracy
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 925
Gov't to make multiple proposals to allow female members to stay in Imperial Household after marriage
Quote:
The government is set to incorporate multiple proposals to allow female members of the Imperial Family to stay in the Imperial Household after marriage into a rough draft of a bill to revise the Imperial House Law. After listening to opinions from political parties as well as members of the general public, the government will finalize the plan by the end of this year and aim to submit a bill to revise the law to the regular Diet session next year.

Under one proposal, Emperor Akihito's three granddaughters -- Princess Aiko, 10, who is the daughter of Crown Prince Naruhito, and Princess Mako, 20, and Princess Kako, 17, who are the daughters of Prince Akishino -- would be allowed to create their own families within the Imperial Household. Their prospective husbands and offspring would not have the right to ascend to the Imperial Throne. [...] During hearings, it has been said that the scope of female members of the Imperial Family allowed to create their own Imperial families should be small. In response, the government has deemed that only those within a second degree of kinship with the Emperor should be allowed to do so.

Under another proposal, female members of the Imperial Family would be allowed to retain their Imperial titles after marriage, though not allowed to set up their own families within the Imperial Household. [...] The government is considering allowing not only those within a second degree of kinship with the Emperor but also those with a third degree of kinship or more to retain their Imperial titles. This option would not cause any problems involving the right to accede to the Imperial Throne. Since it did not stir up opposition from even conservatives during government hearings, the government is likely to consider adopting this option if it struggles to coordinate opinions on the issue. [...]

Conservatives, who insist only male members of the Imperial Family of the male line should be allowed to accede to the Imperial Throne, are opposed to allowing female members to create families within the Imperial Household because it could open the way for a female-line emperor. Therefore, the government has decided to incorporate multiple proposals, including these two options, in a rough draft of a bill to revise the Imperial House Law to avoid a split in public opinion on the issue. The government will also try to avoid political friction over the issue by soliciting opinions from the public and both ruling and opposition parties.

However, since the offspring of female members of the Imperial Family would not be able to gain Imperial titles under the proposals, there is a high possibility that the number of Imperial Family members will sharply decrease again in the future.

Moreover, if the House of Representatives is dissolved for a snap general election, the ongoing discussions could be suspended, forcing the government to postpone a decision on the issue.
July 07, 2012(Mainichi Japan)

Originally, it had been planned to present the rough draft to an extraordinary session this autumn...
__________________
"In order to make the area inhabitable again, we face the difficult problem of removing radiation." - Emperor Akihito

(Following recent incidents, I would like to refer anybody who may think the emperor´s statement obvious or redundant to this thread, post #682.)
Reply With Quote
  #798  
Old 08-13-2012, 03:55 PM
ChiaraC's Avatar
Aristocracy
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 925
Imperial women face poll on 'branches'
Quote:
Amid concerns over the dwindling number of male heirs, the government will ask female members of the Imperial Family for their opinion on establishing Imperial branches so they can retain their royal status even after marriage, government sources said Saturday.

The move is part of preparations to draft an amendment to the Imperial Household Law, which states that only male heirs who have emperors on their father's side are allowed to ascend the throne. It also requires female members to relinquish their Imperial status if they marry commoners.
Gov't to seek princesses' opinions on creating imperial branches
Quote:
The government has interviewed 12 experts on the issue at hearings so far. Although their views were split on the creation of female branches, the experts largely agreed female family members should continue to be involved in imperial family activities even after marriage.

There are now eight unmarried female members, including Princess Aiko, 10, the only child of Crown Prince Naruhito and Crown Princess Masako, and the daughters of Prince Akishino -- Princess Mako, 20, and Princess Kako, 17. Meanwhile, there are only three male heirs on the emperor's side among the 23 current family members.

The government plans to make public the main parts of the experts' views as early as in September and later accept public comments on the matter.

Japan considers allowing female Imperial Family members keep royalty after marriage

Quote:
While responses have been split over the issue, there is a general agreement female members should be allowed to continue their involvement in the Imperial Family even after they marry. [...]
This is certainly a step in the right direction of bringing Japan’s Imperial Family system into the ideals of the modern era. Now they just need to work on that rule that only allows males to ascend to the throne, and then they’ll be just as progressive as England’s royal family.
__________________
"In order to make the area inhabitable again, we face the difficult problem of removing radiation." - Emperor Akihito

(Following recent incidents, I would like to refer anybody who may think the emperor´s statement obvious or redundant to this thread, post #682.)
Reply With Quote
  #799  
Old 08-13-2012, 04:24 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Los Alamos, United States
Posts: 1,034
It seems the royal family of Japan has difficulty reproducing offspring. Even Princess Nori, who became a commoner at marriage, did not have a child during her childbearing years. Even introduction of commoners as spouses of male heirs has not made the problem easier. Why is this? Is the line close to extinct because of too many intermarriages in the past? Sometimes the genetic problems caused by intermarriages persists after the practice stops.

It would be a step backward, genetically, to allow collateral members into the prospective gene pool.

There is a child male heir at this time, but only one! There is no "spare" as in the British family and most other royal families. It seems that if they cannot accept Princess Aiko as an heir to the throne (perhaps following her cousin, who is male) then the family seems genetically doomed to dwindle. This may not be due to any identifiable ailment, as has occurred in other inbreeding families. It may be due to genes just too worn out (although scientifically I don't now what that would mean). It is called Pedigree extinction in some writings.

The other princesses, Kako and Mako, also should be urged to reproduce heirs--yes, try for boys, but if that does not work, consider the opinion of their Creator on this? I gather they ARE a religious family, with ex-princess Nori even now performing her new role as a priestess.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #800  
Old 08-13-2012, 05:27 PM
ChiaraC's Avatar
Aristocracy
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariel1 View Post
The other princesses, Kako and Mako, also should be urged to reproduce heirs
It is even worse than you seem to think. Kako and Mako cannot produce heirs to the throne, as little as Aiko. An heir to the Japanese throne has to be male and he has to be male-line. If Hisahito does not produce a son, then that is it.

Concerning the rest of your post, I have a similiar suspicion as you have. And I think it possible that it is the very "male line" that might be the big problem. Defenders of the male line use to contend that it is the fact that the same y chromosome has (allegedly) been passed down for more than 1000 years that makes the Japanese monarchy so special. But if that should actually have been the case (in fact, it is one of the main plot points of one of the most famous classical Japanese novels that the heir to the throne is produced in an adulterous affair), that also means that this sacred y chromosome has had more than 1000 years of time to mutate and degenerate - ample opportunity, so to speak...

I´d like to quote what I said concerning this issue in another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiaraC View Post
It is to be supposed that there will be even more progress concerning "reproductive technology". But even if there should be I doubt that this will mean that, in the future, literally EVERY couple will be enabled to have a child of their own. Wikipedia quotes a French study in which it is said that 40% of patients succeeded in having a child during the IVF treatment at the center. Even if the success rate should raise to 60 or 70%, considering the number of childless couples in the imperial family, I would not bet that Hisahito and his future wife could be absolutely sure of being among these 60 or 70%. [...]

Modern medicine can accomplish a lot but they have to have something to work with. For example, they may be able to save lives that would have been past hope fifty years ago. But they cannot revive the dead, and I doubt that they will ever be able to do that. Regarding the imperial family, I think there is reason to doubt that the "material" they´d have to work with gives anything that would come close to a guarantee of success.
The more I think about the whole matter, the more I would really, really like to get the opinion of a genetics specialist on the situation with the Japanese imperial family.

According to Wikipedia, the human Y chromosome is particularly exposed to high mutation rates (a risk of mutation 4.8 times greater than the rest of the genome), on the other hand there is a reduced possibility for selection as the Y chromosome does not recombine during meiosis. In other words, the Y chromosome is exposed to a far higher risk of degeneration than the rest of the genome. I suppose that usually an Y chromosome “beyond repair” would, at some point, simply not get to be passed down to the next generation, either because its “holder”, due to his defective Y chromosome, would prove unable to have any offspring at all or else, have merely female offspring. Maybe this obsession with the male line has, through the help of lots of concubines, so far kept the natural genetic selection from taking its course with the imperial family, thereby preserving a completely degenerated Y chromosome that under different, "normal" circumstances would have been weeded out of the gene pool a long time ago already.

It strikes me as remarkable that already for quite some time before Hirohito´s father, the Taisho emperor, there was but one son in every generation who survived infancy (and inherited the throne) - in spite of the efforts of all those concubines... It seems to me that even by then there were more princesses born than princes. Of course, there could be a whole lot of reasons for why this was so (at the time many children died early, boys as well as girls), but imo it would be very interesting to investigate this whole matter more closely. It would also be very interesting to take a look at the number of miscarriages in past generations and to know their gender. (Michiko as well as Masako suffered miscarriages.) Of course, it would be very difficult to find out details about imperial miscarriages from Western sources because except in spectacular cases like with Masako they will hardly ever get much public attention if they are at all made public in the first place.

What I am trying to say is that I think it is absolutely possible that male offspring of the imperial family may have less chances to (1) be conceived in the first place, then (2) to be born healthily and last (3) to survive childhood, due to a defect of the Y chromosome involved. Besides, I think it is also possible that the general sperm quality of male IF members may be rather low, due to the same defect. The first would explain why imperial offspring is usually female, the second why some members do not have any offspring at all. Of course, as they all share the same Y chromosome, one would have to explain why in some cases this results in infertility, in other cases just in an inability to father male children. (Regarding Hisahito, I for one am convinced that the sperm got some "friendly medical support", so it is possible that under “natural circumstances” Akishino might never have been able to father a son, either.)

It is possible, of course, that Hisahito will have one or more male children, with or without the help of modern medicine. But, imo, there is really no guarantee for that, not at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariel1 View Post
yes, try for boys, but if that does not work, consider the opinion of their Creator on this? I gather they ARE a religious family, with ex-princess Nori even now performing her new role as a priestess.
You will probably be surprised to hear it but the imperial family actually claims descent from a goddess...
__________________

__________________
"In order to make the area inhabitable again, we face the difficult problem of removing radiation." - Emperor Akihito

(Following recent incidents, I would like to refer anybody who may think the emperor´s statement obvious or redundant to this thread, post #682.)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
aiko, iha, imperial household agency, japanese imperial family, japanese royal family, princess aiko, princess toshi, succession


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Monaco's succession issues Julia Princely Family of Monaco 571 12-14-2014 04:53 PM
Dutch Line of Succession Fashionista100 Dutch Royals 7 12-14-2006 11:24 AM




Popular Tags
belgium brussels carl philip charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events engagement fashion genealogy germany grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta sofia jordan king carl xvi gustav king constantine ii king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander letizia luxembourg nobility official visit olympic games ottoman pieter van vollenhoven poland president hollande president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince daniel prince floris prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess laurentien princess madeleine princess margriet princess mary queen fabiola queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden the hague wedding winter olympics 2014



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:18 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]