Succession Issues

[Furienna]

Yeah, there have to be some changes. Since the princes no longer have concubines, the number of heirs is very limited, especially if only males with imperial blood on their paternal side can be heirs. I don't know whether to support princess Aiko or prince Hisahito though. Aiko is the crown prince's only child, and if he becomes emperor, he should be succeeded by his child, not by his nephew. However, Hisahito is a boy, and therefor, he can keep the family line going, which the girls in the family can't.

[bekalc]

Originally Posted by Furienna

Yeah, there have to be some changes. Since the princes no longer have concubines, the number of heirs is very limited, especially if only males with imperial blood on their paternal side can be heirs. I don't know whether to support princess Aiko or prince Hisahito though. Aiko is the crown prince's only child, and if he becomes emperor, he should be succeeded by his child, not by his nephew. However, Hisahito is a boy, and therefor, he can keep the family line going, which the girls in the family can't.

Yes, but the rules have always been that only the closest male heir suceedes. I'm sure there are cases in the line before where this sort of thing happened. When you think about it, its Hisahito's birth right now, not Aiko's.

It's not like this is property, or money. This is a heridary role that's been passed down to males in the family for 2,000 years. It's not like there is anything fair or equaitable about monarchies in the first place. Aiko will not want for money, and may even have a better future if she is passed by.

The idea that Aiko's Is the crown Prince's child and Hisahito is only the nephew doesn't mean Aiko would be the better ruler. Any more then the Crown Prince being elder than his brother makes him somehow more worthy.

But the rules have always been the eldest son inherits, and that if you want your child to inherit, it has to be a boy.

If they are going to change the roles, they need to do it now, not 20/30 years from now or even 10 years from now because that would be a gross unfairness to Hisahito, and put Aiko in a position she's not ready for.

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

There was no such recorded thing that only males with Emperor on their father's side could succeed the crysanthemum throne before the Meiji restoration.

This was only put into paper when they had the Meiji restoration and were in contact with Europe. They then copied Prussian's constitution, including the ban of women on the throne.

Before that, the throne was up for grabs. The default heir is the son of the Emperor, but if he doesn't have any, a council decides who shall succeed the throne, and women were eligible as long as they're imperial princesses.

Also, pedigree was a non-issue either, since everyone had imperial blood on both their father's and mother's side. Even the concubines were of imperial blood from cadet branches.

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Originally Posted by Leonie

i think people are forgetting here if princess's Kako and Mako marry they will no longer be in the line of succession and seeing as there are no japanese princes at there age or even around it the chance of it happening is very certain same will happen with Princess Aiko, they lose there titles and membership in the imperial family upon marriage, taking the surnames of their husbands, so there for they basically become "commoners". This will always happen even if the salic law is changed unless they change the 1947 law of females losing there place when they marry commoners aswell.

I'm pretty sure that if they ever change the succession law, the Princess' titles and dignity would be kept to go along with it. So the 1947 law would be changed to.

I mean it'll be stupid if they didn't.

[bekalc]

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo

There was no such recorded thing that only males with Emperor on their father's side could succeed the crysanthemum throne before the Meiji restoration.

This was only put into paper when they had the Meiji restoration and were in contact with Europe. They then copied Prussian's constitution, including the ban of women on the throne.

Before that, the throne was up for grabs. The default heir is the son of the Emperor, but if he doesn't have any, a council decides who shall succeed the throne, and women were eligible as long as they're imperial princesses.

Also, pedigree was a non-issue either, since everyone had imperial blood on both their father's and mother's side. Even the concubines were of imperial blood from cadet branches.

Yes, but history shows that the females served as placeholders, and their kids didn't necessarisly suceed them, unless they were the child of the emperor etc. The issue isn't so much Aiko as Aiko's kids inheriting. Her kids won't have imperial blood from their father's side.

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Originally Posted by bekalc

Yes, but history shows that the females served as placeholders, and their kids didn't necessarisly suceed them, unless they were the child of the emperor etc. The issue isn't so much Aiko as Aiko's kids inheriting. Her kids won't have imperial blood from their father's side.

History never even mentioned they were place holders. They were treated as sovereigns in their own right. They even get the title of "Tenno". And only a Japanese sovereign has that title. Not even foreign emperors are called that, they have a different word for foreign emperors. Only contemporary historians say they're placeholders.

The Emperor on the father side wasn't an issue until after the Meiji restoration, when Japan modeled their new constitution after Prussia's that officially banned women from the throne.

Oh and yes, one Empress passed the throne to her daughter. The reason most of them weren't succeeded by their offspring is simple: they didn't have an offspring to succeed them. Also, they were so inbred back then, that they only marry each other, that there was really no way of worrying about having imperial blood from either parents.

[Furienna]

But because every tenno had imperial blood on their father's side (and oftenly also on their mother's side), the line could still go on. Even when imperial women (princesses) became sovereigns in their own rights, they were succeeded by other members of the imperial family with imperial blood on their father's side. Am I not right? It wouldn't be wrong if Princess Aiko became a sovereign empress, since her parents are likely to become emperor and empress. But what would happen after her? Unless she got married to her cousin Hisahito (which I doubt will happen) or a noble-man with imperial background (which is a little bit more likely, but it's still not to be expected), her son or daughter would become the first tenno ever with no imperial blood on his or her father's side. Prince Hisahito may be only a nephew of an emperor, as his parents will likely never be emperor and empress, but he can follow the tradition in a way, that Aiko and Kako and Mako can't.

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Originally Posted by Furienna

But because every tenno had imperial blood on their father's side (and oftenly also on their mother's side), the line could still go on. Even when imperial women (princesses) became sovereigns in their own rights, they were succeeded by other members of the imperial family with imperial blood on their father's side. Am I not right? It wouldn't be wrong if Princess Aiko became a sovereign empress, since her parents are likely to become emperor and empress. But what would happen after her? Unless she got married to her cousin Hisahito (which I doubt will happen) or a noble-man with imperial background (which is a little bit more likely, but it's still not to be expected), her son or daughter would become the first tenno ever with no imperial blood on his or her father's side. Prince Hisahito may be only a nephew of an emperor, as his parents will likely never be emperor and empress, but he can follow the tradition in a way, that Aiko and Kako and Mako can't.

Again, this whole "Emperor on the father's side" wasn't thought up until after the Meiji restoration. They weren't worried about which parent had a father for an emperor back then. It was a non-issue. This is purely a contemporary thinking for the imperial house law. This is just a justification to prevent women from ascending the throne.

Also, what's wrong with having an a Tenno with no imperial blood/Emperor on his/her father's side? Are women not good enough to carry the bloodline?

[Charlotte1]

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo

Again, this whole "Emperor on the father's side" wasn't thought up until after the Meiji restoration. They weren't worried about which parent had a father for an emperor back then. It was a non-issue. This is purely a contemporary thinking for the imperial house law. This is just a justification to prevent women from ascending the throne.

Also, what's wrong with having an a Tenno with no imperial blood/Emperor on his/her father's side? Are women not good enough to carry the bloodline?

It's not the bloodline, current day conservatives use science. It's the y chromosome that supposedly has come down in an unbroken line from Amaterasu. Only males have a y chromosome. ( Don't know how this y chromosome was supposed to have started as Amaterasu was female!?)
I do agree that these rules and regulations were put in place at the Meiji restoration, and a few extras have been added with the increase in scientific knowledge.
It's debatable whether the current Emperor's line does go all the way back, as some of the early Emperors may have not actually existed and were mythical. Conservatives of course are appalled that this could be suggested.

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Originally Posted by Charlotte1

It's not the bloodline, current day conservatives use science. It's the y chromosome that supposedly has come down in an unbroken line from Amaterasu. Only males have a y chromosome. ( Don't know how this y chromosome was supposed to have started as Amaterasu was female!?)
I do agree that these rules and regulations were put in place at the Meiji restoration, and a few extras have been added with the increase in scientific knowledge.
It's debatable whether the current Emperor's line does go all the way back, as some of the early Emperors may have not actually existed and were mythical. Conservatives of course are appalled that this could be suggested.

No, they used science to JUSTIFY the preservation of the bloodline through the male line by the use of the Y chromosome because they don't want ruling Empresses.

The IHA and most members of parliament are currently very conservative. Most of them think that women shouldn't even have careers.

But again, as I've said, this was a non-issue back in the day.

I still don't get why the IHA still gets involved. House Laws should be up to the Imperial Family. They don't even have symbolic powers like the European monarchs, they should at least have a say in what goes in within their family.

[Charlotte1]

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo

I still don't get why the IHA still gets involved. House Laws should be up to the Imperial Family. They don't even have symbolic powers like the European monarchs, they should at least have a say in what goes in within their family.

But considering that until Akihito and Michiko married in 1958 Imperial Family members weren't even allowed to live together as a family they've made progress. Hirohito apparently was quite surprised that when as Crown Prince he did the Grand Tour of Europe in the early 1920's he saw that the European crown princes all lived with their families.
Elizabeth Grey Vinning's book "Windows for the Crown Prince" is a fascinating look into the life of the post WW2 Imperial Household. She was Akihito's English tutor and also writes about how she tried for at least Akihito and his brother to live in the same house, she managed to get the courtiers to agree to 3 days a week they would be in the same house together.
Present day Imperial Family members have more say in what goes on within their family compared to the past, as Michiko said in one of her birthday interviews, she did what she could and hopes that others will be able to continue.
The IHA courtiers though have the collective to be concerned about, the preservation of the historical tradition ( albeit only going back to the Meiji restoration). No change is good, and yes the current Japanese government is very conservative and has fewer female parliamentarians than when women were given the vote in the 1940s.

[Furienna]

Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo

Again, this whole "Emperor on the father's side" wasn't thought up until after the Meiji restoration. They weren't worried about which parent had a father for an emperor back then. It was a non-issue. This is purely a contemporary thinking for the imperial house law. This is just a justification to prevent women from ascending the throne.?

You also keep saying, that they copied the Prussian succession laws, and that has got me thinking. Because during the WWII, there were no more kings in Prussia. The last Prussian king was also a German emperor, and he abdicated after the WWI. Was there even succession laws left in 1945, or did they copy really old succession laws, from before 1918? And I don't think any royal house in Europe actually prevented women from taking the thrown. After all, Christianity prevented all European royals from having more than one spouse at one time, which limited the number of legal heirs to the throwns, even though most princes and kings still had mistresses and illegitimate children. So even if they prefered men on the throwns, women could also become sovereigns, if they had no brothers. But in Japan, there were plenty of imperial boys born in very generation into the 20th century, since there were many concubines, and all their sons became legal heirs. So keeping all girls from the thrown made more sense in Japan than in Prussia.

Also, what's wrong with having an a Tenno with no imperial blood/Emperor on his/her father's side? Are women not good enough to carry the bloodline?

It's about tradition. All imperial and royal houses are based on tradition. If these traditions are changed too much, then there's no point in having monarchies at all. And it's not about women not being good enough. It's just that a woman can't carry her dynasty further.

[Charlotte1]

Originally Posted by Furienna

You also keep saying, that they copied the Prussian succession laws, and that has got me thinking. Because during the WWII, there were no more kings in Prussia. The last Prussian king was also a German emperor, and he abdicated after the WWI. Was there even succession laws left in 1945, or did they copy really old succession laws, from before 1918? And I don't think any royal house in Europe actually prevented women from taking the thrown. After all, Christianity prevented all European royals from having more than one spouse at one time, which limited the number of legal heirs to the throwns, even though most princes and kings still had mistresses and illegitimate children. So even if they prefered men on the throwns, women could also become sovereigns, if they had no brothers. But in Japan, there were plenty of imperial boys born in very generation into the 20th century, since there were many concubines, and all their sons became legal heirs. So keeping all girls from the thrown made more sense in Japan than in Prussia.

The Meiji Restoration began in 1868, it came about as a response to the forced opening up of Japan by Commodore Matthew Perry. Up until then except for a small enclave near Nagasaki, no foreigners were allowed in Japan. Commodore Perry and his gunships overpowered the Japanese. It was decided by the Japanese leadership to go out into the western world and take what was best of what they saw and bring it back to Japan. Prussia was the superpower of its day, the Japanese admired its military strength and system of government centered around an Emperor.
Japan had Emperors up until then but were very much in the background, the rulers were the Shoguns, just before the Meiji restoration most Japanese of the time wouldn't have even been sure that the Emperor still existed.
The new Emperor was only a teenager, he was installed and the system of government modelled on the Prussian was introduced. The indigneous Japanese religion Shinto was reconfigured to centre around the Emperor and he became a direct descendent of the goddess Amaterasu. Also male only succession was introduced.
Regardless of whether or not Prussia existed Japan kept to the constitution it adopted in the 1880's, modelled on the Prussian.
The constitution adopted after WW2 changed the previous militaristic constitution, got rid of the minor royals and restricted the Imperial Family to the descendents of Emperor Taisho but still kept the female only succession. ( Which considering at the time, Denmark, Sweden and Norway also had female only succession wasn't all that unusual)

There actually were not many Imperial boys from the main line coming into the 20th century. Emperor Meiji had numerous children but only one surviving boy born to a concubine ( Lady in waiting is the polite Japanese term). Emperor Taisho ( Meiji's son) fathered 4 sons by his wife. In the 1930's Hirohito was pushed by IHA courtiers to take a concubine after his wife gave birth to 4 daughters in a row but he refused and eventually fathered 2 sons. Concubines haven't actually been used since the mid 19th century.

There are examples of European Royal Houses that wouldn't allow women to succeed well into the 20th century. Denmark allowed female succession in 1953, Sweden 1980 and Norway in 1991. The current kings of Sweden and Norway's sisters are not and never have been in the line of succession as they were born before the laws were changed.

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Originally Posted by Furienna

It's about tradition. All imperial and royal houses are based on tradition. If these traditions are changed too much, then there's no point in having monarchies at all. And it's not about women not being good enough. It's just that a woman can't carry her dynasty further.

Tradition is overrated. If it's changed too much there's no point in having a monarchy?

Well, let's abolish all the current Monarchies that had Salic Law and changed to allow women on the throne then.

Bye bye to: Danish royals, Swedish royals, Nepalese royals, Belgian royals, Dutch royals, etc.

A Monarchy should be able to adapt. If it can't adapt, then it's a weak monarchy, and must be abolished.

And a woman can't carry her dynasty further? Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands should rise from the grave and knock some sense into you. Currently, females are dominant in the Dutch Royal House, and with the Prince of Orange's three daughters, it looks like women will continue to rule and keep furthering that dynasty.

[Next Star]

I am liking what I am reading go two thumbs up CrownaprinceLorenzo. I agree with you on having women being included in the line of succession to the throne and just not men.Tradition, tradition that same lame excuse has been used too many times it is so boring.My feelings will not change on the this law but things change and people too. For hundrerds of years women have carried the family line within monarchies and now to try to stop that would be non sense a woman can be a monarch just like a man. I could name several queens true what you said CrownPrinceLorezno that females dominant the Dutch royal family and have been doing that for thousands of years.There are more queens in Dutch history than kings showing that a female can carry a family line. I hope Japan one day sees this too and will allow a female emperor to be head of state some day.

[marian]

Will it be a good solution? Naruhito, for me, he should yield his rights to the throne to his brother. Will it he hurt him that his daughter is discriminated?
I think that he is an intelligent man and that it was hard for his wife to have a daughter and not a son. That pressed there is been duty the two.

[scooter]

Given that they had InVitro, and given that the technology to choose the gender of the embryo before it was implanted, Masako and naruhito could have chosen to have a male fetus implanted. They chose not to, for whatever reason. Perhaps they have had such a bad experience, and they see his sister escaping the 'prison' of the IHA with her marriage....perhaps they deliberately chose not to have a boy?