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  #321  
Old 09-04-2006, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnik
No matter of that what will be born by few days the reform of the JI Succession should take place!!!
I think most of us all think that. Unfortunately, if Kiko's child is a boy, then the reform will most likely be post-poned (maybe forever).
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  #322  
Old 09-04-2006, 06:02 PM
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Or to the next succession problem...:mrgreen:
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  #323  
Old 09-04-2006, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnik
Or to the next succession problem...:mrgreen:
*sigh* Yes, it's a vicious cycle, isn't it? However, as somebody stated (I believe it was Alexandria), that this might be the last generation where gender is left to chance. If this Kiko's child is a boy, then there's a very real possibility that the succession law will never change. Now if Kiko's child is a girl, then we might see some very big changes in the Imperial family!
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  #324  
Old 09-04-2006, 06:49 PM
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I think we all know that this one is a boy. All the hints are out there, they have to know because it seems too much at stake.
So, assuming our Forum's general guess that we are about to hear of a princely boy being born this week, and assuming he will be made to marry young and reproduce...what would life be 20-25 years from now when Kiko's son only have daugthers, one after another one?
In my opinion, they should deal with this now and get it over with. In that way both Princess Kiko and Princess Masako can have that pressure lifted off their shoulders.
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  #325  
Old 09-04-2006, 08:04 PM
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Without getting philosophical, I do wonder how faith figures in all this. The Imperial Family are Shinto yes? Well, from what I understand (and I don't want to precise ancient wisdom in a few words so excuse me) that's about nature and things being as they are. If we're tampering around playing nature, surely that goes against the beliefs of the Imperial Family. I mean, I'm going on the belief that the IHA forced Kiko to have IVF and ensured it would be a boy. I don't want to go into the religion world but it's just a fleeting thought I had.
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  #326  
Old 09-04-2006, 09:02 PM
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I have a feeling that religion is taking a back seat to politics in this particular case.
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  #327  
Old 09-04-2006, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
I think we all know that this one is a boy. All the hints are out there, they have to know because it seems too much at stake.
So, assuming our Forum's general guess that we are about to hear of a princely boy being born this week, and assuming he will be made to marry young and reproduce...what would life be 20-25 years from now when Kiko's son only have daugthers, one after another one?
Doesn't have to happen. Now they know how to select gender before implantation, they can have quite the little production line for boys going.
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  #328  
Old 09-04-2006, 09:17 PM
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Well...we will find out in 2 days!

I know these are serious times...but the anticipated arrival of the new baby is like waiting for the new Harry Potter to come out!
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  #329  
Old 09-05-2006, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Without getting philosophical, I do wonder how faith figures in all this. The Imperial Family are Shinto yes? Well, from what I understand (and I don't want to precise ancient wisdom in a few words so excuse me) that's about nature and things being as they are. If we're tampering around playing nature, surely that goes against the beliefs of the Imperial Family. I mean, I'm going on the belief that the IHA forced Kiko to have IVF and ensured it would be a boy. I don't want to go into the religion world but it's just a fleeting thought I had.
As I'm about to move I selected the books to keep and take with me and found a book about Japan written in the 1970ies. In it it discusses the position of the Imperial family as symbols of Japan and how this is belief plus the shintoism is a very important part of the national identity of Japan.

After I read the chapter I got a real bad feeling in my stomach as I found that I haven't understood the whole problem at all. I read more modern sources on the net but found that it's still as written in the book. The book claimed that the bureaucracy is in control of most things in Japan and people think it's normal that way as it's a very patrician way to cope with society. Politics are important, too but the political parties are all convinced that preserving the status quo is an important goal. Japan might be forced to change but most people prefer to have as less changes as possible. For Japanese traditionalists the Imperial family is a god-given thing and securing and protecting this family is their most prominent goal.

But - the actual members of the family are viewed a bit like the ravens at the tower - these belong to the queen of the UK and have to be protected because there's an old saying that the monarchy will end when the ravens end. Thus they are fed and protected, they get medical care and all is done to ensure that they breed new ravens but the single animal has no rights at all - it lives because it serves a higher goal.

While I can accept that for the ravens of the tower, I think it's completely weird (not to say sick) to act the same way towards people. But if you try to see it from this perspective, then Masako committed the greatest crime possible: she endangered the whole system. As all this is god-given, The Lord himself sent the sign that Masako was the wrong choice for prince Naruhito - the couple is being punished through the absence of a son, thus of course the courtiers can feel alright on treating Masako as a sinner.

It's medieval and it's terrible but it has a certain logic in it. As for a female empress: just imagine telling the Tibetan Buddhists or the Roman Catholics that their next head of the church should be a woman instead of a male Dalai Lama or Pope.... I guess this is about the size of the moat to be crossed before the bureaucracy accepts a female emperor.
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  #330  
Old 09-05-2006, 11:17 AM
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i agree with ur explanation of how the whole thing works. especially with the question on whether there should be female succession. its a traditional idea which stems from ancient beliefs, at a time when the japanese imperial family was huge. however only having male succession will have its downsides, including the increased risk of losing the 'ravens' altogether. since the downsizing of the royal family after WWII
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  #331  
Old 09-05-2006, 01:36 PM
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I'm all for keeping the ways in Japan as it is, if possible. Nowadays, it seems like a lot of people will think if a woman is kept away from a profession or an office because of her gender, it's because women are considered inferior to men. I don't see it that way. I see women and men as created equally but differently. Thus, a Japenese princess is not worthless just because she's a girl, but as long as there are princes, only boys from the imperial family should be heirs to the thrown. If this new child is a girl, then one of the princesses, probably Aiko, will have to become empress one day. But if the new child is a boy, he should automatically the heir, not his sisters or his cousins.
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  #332  
Old 09-05-2006, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
Doesn't have to happen. Now they know how to select gender before implantation, they can have quite the little production line for boys going.
Reminds me of the apocalyptic movie called "The Boys from Brazil".
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  #333  
Old 09-05-2006, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
Doesn't have to happen. Now they know how to select gender before implantation, they can have quite the little production line for boys going.

That's just depressing. Not your comment, but the truth of it.
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  #334  
Old 09-05-2006, 11:41 PM
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well regardless, it does appear as if all questions will be put aside for now given that they have a male heir to the throne. i would still like to see them vote the succession to allow Aiko to take the throne, but I don't see that as being an likely scenario.
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  #335  
Old 09-06-2006, 12:17 AM
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Tradition has to be kept. respected. Until the day that males can take the surname of females when they marry, it is highly unlikely that the constitution can change.
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  #336  
Old 09-06-2006, 12:24 AM
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Well that's that then.... i'm guessing the politicans all tossing the debate on succession reforms out the windows as there's a new boy in town.

It's a real pity and shame that for a country which is so advance in technology be so backwards in culture. Look how wonderfully the current Queens are reigning their countries - England, Holland, Denmark and and in the future quite alot of monarchs are going to be rule by Queens - Norway, Sweden, Belguim, Holland, Spain....
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  #337  
Old 09-06-2006, 01:37 AM
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Abe calls for 'careful' debate on revising law on imperial succession

Chief Cabinet Secretary Shinzo Abe on Wednesday called for "careful" and "level-headed" discussion of the idea of revising the Imperial House Law to allow female heirs to the throne, expressing his belief there should be no rush in doing so following the birth of a baby prince. "The debate on the Imperial House Law is a very important issue for stable succession to the throne and must be undertaken with careful and level-headed discussions," Abe said in answering reporters' questions shortly after Princess Kiko gave birth to the imperial family's first boy in 41 years. "Understanding from the general public is also necessary.".................
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060906/kyodo/d8jv34fo0.html
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  #338  
Old 09-06-2006, 02:16 AM
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They're just delaying the inevitable. Sooner or later down the road, they'll come across the same dilemma. Their birth rate is just not as high to ensure that a male would be born.

I've very disappointed that some people don't see that. A little frustrating for me that for a nation as forward thinking as Japan, as far ahead as it is in terms of science and technology, that they still hold the belief that only through having a Y chomosome is the most important qualification for ruling a country. Even when the ruler is a female, genetically, their offspring is just as legitimate and directly related as the male being the ruler. It's just...I don't know, I don't have any words other than frustrating. The logic is not adding up for me.
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  #339  
Old 09-06-2006, 02:21 AM
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They have the technology to pretty much guarantee a male child if they really need to. That technology exists now - in 20 to 30 years' time, it'll be routine if they need it.
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  #340  
Old 09-06-2006, 03:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliza
Look how wonderfully the current Queens are reigning their countries - England, Holland, Denmark and and in the future quite alot of monarchs are going to be rule by Queens - Norway, Sweden, Belguim, Holland, Spain....
But neither Elizabeth II, Beatrix and Margarethe II had any brothers. Therefor, it was clear, that they were heirs even though they were girls. If they had had brothers, it would be different. As for the future ruling queens, they often have younger brothers, which makes the whole thing ridiculous. You say a woman wouldn't be a worse monarch than a man. But is then the oldest sibling always a better monarch than his or her younger siblings? No. The whole concept of succession is based on tradition. When it comes to equality, being the second-born shouldn't keep you away from a thrown more than what being a woman would. But still, no one questions that rule. Succession can't be based on equality. It should be based on traditions, like the royal and imperial houses themselves are.
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