Succession and Membership Issues


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But isn't that the way it is in other countries too? Even here in Sweden, three of our king's sisters aren't in the line of succession, because they married commoners. I don't think this would be the case for Madeleine though.
 
They're still "Princess Whatever, Mrs Thingy," though, aren't they? The emperor's daughter is now plain Mrs Kuroda and doesn't get to do any sorts of things that any other plain Mrs Kuroda wouldn't do. Seems a hell of a waste of half a lifetime of training.
 
Furienna said:
But isn't that the way it is in other countries too? Even here in Sweden, three of our king's sisters aren't in the line of succession, because they married commoners. I don't think this would be the case for Madeleine though.
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There is simply not the contrast in their lifestyles as there is in Japan. Sayako went from one lifestyle to another in the course of a day and she has no place in official Imperial Family functions now. Most of the European siblings have a lessening of their responsibilities but most have some level of participation in the royal lifestyle after their marriages.
 
I would still love for Aiko and the other imperial princesses to have a shot at the throne - that would be the best case scenario for me. But bringing back the other imperial branches reduced to commoners after WW II is not a bad idea, either. And that imperial princesses do not get tossed out as soon as they marry!

If they do bring back the other families into their imperial status, I agree that it'll be too costly even for a country as rich as Japan..... you're talking about 11 other branches here, on top of the existing branches. Why not restore the family's assets that were confiscated so that they have some private income? That could help. IMHO, that should not have been done in the first place. :bang:
 
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Emily said:
I agree with this -- but what I don't clearly understand is, in the general society, aren't females "tossed out" of professional positions once they marry? Does Japanese society have respect for females? Or is this a very male dominated society?
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It's a very male-dominated society, and people seem to live within far more rigidly defined parameters than in the west. That may be changing, but there's still quite a difference. My husband said, when he was in Japan, that at social functions the men and women still occupy different rooms in the house and the men tend to talk about work while the women talk about domestic things; it was always difficult when female scientists from Europe or the States were included because the men were uncomfortable having them join in the work-related conversation while they weren't really interested in feminine small-talk when they were over there as working scientists. It seems to be similar to the way things were in the West in the 1950s.
 
Parliamentary league to be launched to keep male-line monarchy

(Kyodo) _ A group of Japanese lawmakers plans to launch a nonpartisan league of parliamentarians on Oct. 17 calling for maintaining Japan's traditional imperial succession system that allows only male descendants of male emperors to ascend the throne of the world's oldest dynasty, the legislators said Tuesday....Furuya told reporters that the league's main mission is to discuss how to maintain Japan's male-line monarchy and also deepen debates on a revision of the imperial household economy law that sets rules on property of and expenditures to the imperial family.....
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/061003/kyodo/d8kh3r780.html
 
Seems the popular opinion is one thing and what the lawmakers want is another one.
I do hope something positive comes out of all of this for the Imperial family, like a little more freedom and to be allowed to be financially independent like their royal counterparts.
 
Toledo said:
Seems the popular opinion is one thing and what the lawmakers want is another one.
I do hope something positive comes out of all of this for the Imperial family, like a little more freedom and to be allowed to be financially independent like their royal counterparts.
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Wait and see. At ther moment these parliamentarians are in between elections but before such laws can be made, there will be elections and then the public opinion will be heard again. It's good that there is move at all, I'd say.
 
Elspeth said:
It's a very male-dominated society, and people seem to live within far more rigidly defined parameters than in the west. That may be changing, but there's still quite a difference. My husband said, when he was in Japan, that at social functions the men and women still occupy different rooms in the house and the men tend to talk about work while the women talk about domestic things; it was always difficult when female scientists from Europe or the States were included because the men were uncomfortable having them join in the work-related conversation while they weren't really interested in feminine small-talk when they were over there as working scientists. It seems to be similar to the way things were in the West in the 1950s.
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Had Masako never married into the family what would her life have been like, do you suppose? She is so intelligent and had a career. Who knows how far she could have gone in America, but how far in Japan?

Did your husband live in Japan? Hope you don't mind me asking!
 
That would be a very cruel thing to do to Princess Kiko, not that some of these dinosaurs appear to give a damn about minor details like that.:rolleyes:

And it would also mean that Prince Akishino, the apparently favoured son of the Emperor and the IHA, would be cut out of the succession. Something tells me that isn't going to fly.
 
Elspeth said:
That would be a very cruel thing to do to Princess Kiko, not that some of these dinosaurs appear to give a damn about minor details like that.:rolleyes:

And it would also mean that Prince Akishino, the apparently favoured son of the Emperor and the IHA, would be cut out of the succession. Something tells me that isn't going to fly.
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But what a poetic justice.... Because: only if the IHA has set up prince and princess Akishino to get a new child and has seen to it that this child would be a prince, an act like that would have some plausibility. Otherwise taking away a child from his parents is out of the question. Agreed? But it's a story worth dramatizing... Where's Hollywood or Bollywood when one needs them? ;)
 
Or maybe it's a roundabout way of saying that the prince should be raised by the crown prince and since the crown prince isn't his father perhaps the current crown prince should step aside so the youngster can be trained properly by grandpa the emperor and daddy the crown prince. I mean, some of this stuff is so convoluted that it's hard to know what any of them mean any more.
 
I agree. But maybe it is just a speculation. I think it would be amazing for the IHA to push the baby over the the CPCouple's family like that. Or maybe it's something that's being floated for later when he's older. Or maybe they're trying to put some more pressure on the CPrincess a little bit about this 'the child you have must be a boy' thing.

Or maybe they're trying to manoever to push the CPrince himself out of his spot (but that would be ridiculous, imo).

Maybe the IHA are trying to find a way to signal somehow that the CP is actually accepting of this situation that has come about, you know, if he goes ahead and adopt his nephew as his successor over his own child.

I cannot figure any of this out either, especially since it at least has looked to me like the CP would have no issue with his daughter succeeding him based on his helping Masako through all the difficulties that they have had with the IHA -- I'm only guessing though, as I would not know at all.

well, the article reads like it was only a suggestion from just one 'expert'.

just my opinion. wow, what a saga...
 
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fanletizia said:
Expert proposes Prince Hisahito be adopted by crown prince :wacko:
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/061005/kyodo/d8kida802.html
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One cruel act followed by another cruel act. Taking a child from it's loving parents and giving it to another couple to replace their very own child...and both couples suffer.
I don't see the reasoning in all of this.
 
Apparently to remind the royals that their only worth is their position, not themselves. The mind boggles about what this character might be an expert in - not something to do with human beings, I hope.
 
So, where is Akishino in all this? As Masako is now moving toward the end of, or has finished, her childbearing years I thought the succession would then be Naruhito, Akishino, Hisahito. If that is the case, why not be grooming Akishino for the Emperor's position and then he could in turn groom his son? This would seem the more humane way to go about part of Hisahito's education as opposed to adoption by Naruhito -- unless Akishino is going to be passed over.

I also question what the article means by "nominal" adoption? Could that mean "when the time comes that Hisahito is old enough, he'll spend part of the day with his Uncle helping/observing his duties and in that way becoming prepared for the role of Emperor?
 
Elspeth said:
Apparently to remind the royals that their only worth is their position, not themselves. The mind boggles about what this character might be an expert in - not something to do with human beings, I hope.
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right on elspeth right on
i've stopped reading this thread i have to avoid stress, i have to go take a pill now. the depth of evil that runs thru whoever these "people" (i use the term loosely, i've got some nasty "texas words" i could use) is too much for me, i simply can't understand how the japanese people accept this. yes, yes, yes tradition blah blah blah tradition blah blah blah
but reading the article its the lawmakers this time, not the IHA- the lawmakers who are VOTED in. nows the time for people to stand up for whats really basically about human rights. poor masako she should have seeked political asylum in holland.

"quote from article " my thought (*)
"Diet lawmakers plan to set up a cross-party group of parliamentarians on Oct. 17 that will seek to maintain the male-only Imperial succession law that allows only male descendants of emperors to assume the throne of the world's oldest monarchy, the legislators said Tuesday."
*(wonder how many women in this group :mad: )

"group's main mission is to discuss how to maintain the male-line monarchy and to further debate on a revision to the the Imperial Household economy law, which sets rules on Imperial family property and spending."
*(sounds like a threat to me- accept this or starve, homeless)

try to revise the Imperial House Law in order to restore former members of the aristocracy to royal status in order to boost the number of males eligible to become emperor. In 1947, 11 such families lost their Imperial status and became commoners under pressure from Occupation authorities.
*(yeah blame it on the yanks)

i'll go lay down now this rant has wore me out.
 
Emily said:
So, where is Akishino in all this? As Masako is now moving toward the end of, or has finished, her childbearing years I thought the succession would then be Naruhito, Akishino, Hisahito. If that is the case, why not be grooming Akishino for the Emperor's position and then he could in turn groom his son? This would seem the more humane way to go about part of Hisahito's education as opposed to adoption by Naruhito -- unless Akishino is going to be passed over.

I also question what the article means by "nominal" adoption? Could that mean "when the time comes that Hisahito is old enough, he'll spend part of the day with his Uncle helping/observing his duties and in that way becoming prepared for the role of Emperor?
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Regarding the last paragraph of your post, I would think this would be the best thing. IIRC, Crown Prince Phillippe of Belgium spent quite a bit of time observing his Uncle, King Baudoin, at work while he was growing up.
 
I don't know if something is getting lost in the translation or what, but the whole premise of the suggestion sounds bogus. The crown prince and his brother aren't that many years apart in age - it isn't as though we're talking about an age difference like the one between Prince Charles and Prince Edward or anything - so it's unlikely that having Prince Akishino succeed his brother will put off Prince Hisahito's accession for all that long. I mean, it's possible, but it isn't likely. And as you say, Emily, if Prince Akishino is to be the heir to his brother, he'll have to learn the ropes, and in doing so he'll be able to teach his son.

Seems to me there are undercurrents here - rub Princess Masako's nose in the fact that the long awaited boy isn't hers? make sure Princess Aiko knows she's the unimportant one in the family? suggest something so unpalatable to the crown prince that he decides to step down? practise egregious cruelty toward Princess Kiko for reasons unknown? take Prince Akishino down a notch? On the face of it, this suggestion is so ludicrous that there must be something else going on.
 
Yes, it would seem a lot is being left out, or left to the reader to try to read between the lines. Would for once these "experts" would come right out and say what they mean!

But the IHA seem to prefer murk to clarity, all the better to cloak their machinations.
 
All I wonder is when the Emperor is going to step in, his sons and their wives and children are being played like chess pieces by these 'lawmakers'. Can he be allowed to have a 'say' on this?
 
I don't see why he wouldn't, after all he is the head of the Imperial House.
But from what I can see there isn't much communication between him and his sons. Maybe he is a hands off kind of parent, like Queen Elizabeth II is.
 
BMC said:
I don't see why he wouldn't, after all he is the head of the Imperial House.
But from what I can see there isn't much communication between him and his sons. Maybe he is a hands off kind of parent, like Queen Elizabeth II is.
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I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. I think Akhito may have learned a lesson about lack of communication from Naruhito's public complaint about Masako's treatment. Not to keep beating a dead horse, but re-reading the birthday interviews, while I know they are scripted for the press, does show the family to be more humane, in touch and communicative than official images portray. The number of times they get together for lunch with each other - or as the one item mentioned, that they had dinner and watched fireflies this summer - suggests some level of communication. Michiko consistently comes across as a very thought-filled woman. My hope is that they are more on top of the "adoption" and other succession issues than we realize.
 
Emily said:
I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. I think Akhito may have learned a lesson about lack of communication from Naruhito's public complaint about Masako's treatment. Not to keep beating a dead horse, but re-reading the birthday interviews, while I know they are scripted for the press, does show the family to be more humane, in touch and communicative than official images portray. The number of times they get together for lunch with each other - or as the one item mentioned, that they had dinner and watched fireflies this summer - suggests some level of communication. Michiko consistently comes across as a very thought-filled woman. My hope is that they are more on top of the "adoption" and other succession issues than we realize.
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I hope so too...i don't about the idea of adoption it will only put off a future crises. I hope that the government etc continue debate the succession issue more before coming up with a final decision and I HOPE that the Imperial Royal Family are happy and united whatever the final decision.
teu20.gif
 
Well in fairness, I read the article and the guy mentioned a "nominal adoption." Which would suggest perhaps an adoption in name only, where the boy would still be raised by his biological parents. But regarded as legally the Crown Prince's son so that he can be trained from an early age to be the future emperor. It doesn't sound like he's trying to take the little boy away from his real family.

He does say that later on they will have to change the rules so a female can succeed. So this isn't some jerk who is trying to be mean. He's just trying to suggest a realistic way where the young Prince can be trained for his position rather then being not prepared at all.
 
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Since the young prince's father is the next in line after the Crown Prince, he must also be being trained to take over the job; if that's the case, he'd be just as able as his brother to train his son.
 
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