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  #261  
Old 08-21-2006, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caster51
700 years ago, It divided into two emperors(south and north Imperial Courts ).
former 5 imperial families are from Northern imperial Courts
Hirohito,aiko... Southern imperial Courts
if aiko marries one of kids of Northern imperial Courts
I think it might be wonderful
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanboku-cho
It is nice to have someone from Japan to share discuss about this Japanese Imperial issue.I understand if Aiko marries a noble man (from male line descendant) then people might not see any problem with their child to ascend the throne in the future. But if she has to marries some one I hope the marriage will bring them a real happiness, not only to produce "a blue blood line" heir (as I understood so far In Japanese culture female can not passes her "blue blood line" to her children if she marries a commoner, correct me if I wrong about it ).
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  #262  
Old 08-21-2006, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
I would be very careful with such absolutistic statements. We learned here in this forum that the Japanese language doesn't have a word for the female head of state in their empire. They used the male word "Tenno" for their (few) female rulers. Thus, I guess, the correct translation of the word used for a future female ruler of Japan would be "emperor" and not empress, as it signals the meaning of the original word.

Just like in the US, where there is only Mr. President (and in a potential future Mrs. president) but not Mrs. Presidentress.
Good points, all of them, but I believe the term would be "Madame President" rather than 'Mrs. President', but maybe it's just a matter of semantics, I don't know.
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  #263  
Old 08-21-2006, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Lillia
Good points, all of them, but I believe the term would be "Madame President" rather than 'Mrs. President', but maybe it's just a matter of semantics, I don't know.
If Mr. stands for Mister/Master, then Mrs. should stand not for Madame but Mistress Presidentress.... LOL. Thank you for your input, Lillia.
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  #264  
Old 08-21-2006, 06:10 PM
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If a Japanese Princess marries a commoner she would lose her title and not recieve any financial help from the imperial family. How if she were to marry a noble she would be able to keep her title and stay finanically helped by the imperial family the only way a female would be a heir if the law is changed.
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  #265  
Old 08-21-2006, 06:17 PM
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Caster 51, welcome and thank you for your input. I have some questions -- do many of your peers talk about the succession issue? Do they support Aiko becoming the female Emperor? Does the younger generation maintain the importance of continuing the tradition of male emperor or is there more support for a female? Also, do many Japanese talk about Masako and what has happened to her? Are they sympathetic to her? What is the perception of Naruhito? How does opinion of Naruhito/Masako compare with Akishino/Kiko? Also, do commoners place more emphasis on their paternal ancestors vs. their maternal?

...as an aside...heartfelt thanks to all. I am immensely enjoying reading these posts and learning and learning. A great discussion!
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  #266  
Old 08-21-2006, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily
Caster 51, welcome and thank you for your input. I have some questions -- do many of your peers talk about the succession issue? Do they support Aiko becoming the female Emperor? Does the younger generation maintain the importance of continuing the tradition of male emperor or is there more support for a female? Also, do many Japanese talk about Masako and what has happened to her? Are they sympathetic to her? What is the perception of Naruhito? How does opinion of Naruhito/Masako compare with Akishino/Kiko? Also, do commoners place more emphasis on their paternal ancestors vs. their maternal?

...as an aside...heartfelt thanks to all. I am immensely enjoying reading these posts and learning and learning. A great discussion!
Wow, that's quite a few questions, Emily! :mrgreen:
I must say I would like to know Japanese view on all of these questions, so Caster 51 has better be armed with patience. Naturally, I am most interested especially in the first 2 questions.
And I must admit I learnt a great deal fromthis discussin as well!
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  #267  
Old 08-21-2006, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
This focus on the Y chromosome seems to hark back to a prescientific age when heredity was thought to go just through the male line and women were simply incubators of the man's child. These days scientists know that genes are transmitted from both parents; since they've included genetics professors in the panels of experts being consulted about the succession issue, they have to know that imperial chromosomes are transmitted through the mother as well as the father. The way they're now focussing on the Y chromosome seems to be by way of being an excuse. One chromosome by itself isn't much use to anyone.
The thing is this... A boy inherits his father's Y-chromosome, while both boys and girls inherit an X-chromosome from their mother and a girl would also inherit an X from her father. But a girl inherits her mother's... mitochondry? Sorry, I don't know the English word, but it's something in your cells. You can follow a male's male line back centuries through his X-chromosome, and a female's female line can be followed back centuries through her mitochondry (?). So you can get information about where a man's father's father's father's father came from and where a woman's mother's mother's mother's mother came from. If the imperial line of Japan has been unbroken on the male side for centuries, the emperor and his sons should have the same Y-chromosome as their ancestors who were emperor many centuries ago. So even if you can be right about it going back to the belief of the woman only being a weasel, where the baby grew, this makes scientifical sense. But then, people also always knew, that the mother was important for breeding, way before the discovery of the woman egg. People always knew a child look like its mother or like its father. So people must have though in two different ways. I'm confused now.
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  #268  
Old 08-21-2006, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
do many of your peers talk about the succession issue?
Yes ,we do. however many of us dont notice the defference between female emperor and a emperor in female line yet.
The dynasty changes though the meaningless imperial household follows....
this issue will be "it is no use crying over spilt milk"

Quote:
Do they support Aiko becoming the female Emperor?
I would support her if next aiko is a succession in male line

Quote:
Does the younger generation maintain the importance of continuing the tradition of male emperor or is there more support for a female?
I dont know.
they will realize that in the future.."it is no use crying over spilt milk"

Quote:
Also, do many Japanese talk about Masako and what has happened to her? Are they sympathetic to her? What is the perception of Naruhito? How does opinion of Naruhito/Masako compare with Akishino/Kiko? Also, do commoners place more emphasis on their paternal ancestors vs. their maternal?
I dont hope only for Masako's line.
I want a just Succession of male line.
in my opinion, masako is not doing good job yet.
she can not adapt her job yet though she is clever
masako and aiko will have more trouble and pains in the future.

The mass communication desperately substitutes the problem that men and wamen are equal.
it is not a matter which man and women are equal.
it is a matter of concerning with tradition, shinto, history, identity and myth for 2600 years .......

I will be having misgivings about the imperial household's rupture in the
future.
It means the weakening of Japan.
The enemy in Japan is Japanese who is brainwashed by mass media


Quote:
even Before edo era, Emperor did not have power.
why were many shougun nominated by Emperor.?
shogun was a king
however shogun was also a servant of Emperor nominaly
It is not possible to become a shogun without the emperor's approval like today.
however
for example. Meiji Restoration occurred because there was an emperor.
he has "real power" because He has a powerless.
even after war, if there was no emperor, japan would become like iraq
that is, Japanese origine is Amateras and its male in line,. of course myth is a myth.

If the succession in male line is cut, who believe that myth and who respect the emperor.?
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  #269  
Old 08-21-2006, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furienna
The thing is this... A boy inherits his father's Y-chromosome, while both boys and girls inherit an X-chromosome from their mother and a girl would also inherit an X from her father. But a girl inherits her mother's... mitochondry? Sorry, I don't know the English word, but it's something in your cells. You can follow a male's male line back centuries through his X-chromosome, and a female's female line can be followed back centuries through her mitochondry (?). So you can get information about where a man's father's father's father's father came from and where a woman's mother's mother's mother's mother came from. If the imperial line of Japan has been unbroken on the male side for centuries, the emperor and his sons should have the same Y-chromosome as their ancestors who were emperor many centuries ago. So even if you can be right about it going back to the belief of the woman only being a weasel, where the baby grew, this makes scientifical sense. But then, people also always knew, that the mother was important for breeding, way before the discovery of the woman egg. People always knew a child look like its mother or like its father. So people must have though in two different ways. I'm confused now.
Yes, a child has its mother's mitochondrial DNA (and often the mother and child's heartbeats are in sync, because the child was oriented to its mother's biorhythms in the womb). I think a boy or a girl child can be traced to a mother this way. And if a baby is given birth to by a surrogate (i.e. the biological parents' embryo is implanted into another woman), that baby will have traces of the surrogate mother's mitochondrial DNA in addition to that of its biological mother's.
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  #270  
Old 08-21-2006, 10:31 PM
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I welcome entering of female foreigner's blood into the emperor.
blood has a nothing to do with an Emperor.
because it does not chage a gareatest father of the japanese, that is , Amaterasu.


http://www.isejingu.or.jp/english/index.htm
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  #271  
Old 08-22-2006, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caster51
I dont hope only for Masako's line.
I want a just Succession of male line.
in my opinion, masako is not doing good job yet.
she can not adapt her job yet though she is clever
masako and aiko will have more trouble and pains in the future.
Are most people not happy with Masako in Japan? I know it may seem like she hasn't done much but she was this clever, free woman before her marriage and now she's in a glorified prison (just my opinion). I just want a Japanese perspective about Masako. Are the people upset that she hasn't produced a boy even though it is common knowledge that it's the sperm that determines gender? Does anybody question the IHA?

Sorry for all the questions.
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  #272  
Old 08-22-2006, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caster51
I welcome entering of female foreigner's blood into the emperor.
blood has a nothing to do with an Emperor.
because it does not chage a gareatest father of the japanese, that is , Amaterasu.


http://www.isejingu.or.jp/english/index.htm
ok i completely understand your view, i also think it is necessary that there are parts of your culture should not be changed. what u meant earlier was that you'd accept aiko as empress as long as the line of succession doesn't change entirely and that it would be best if she produces a male heir in the future.
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  #273  
Old 08-22-2006, 04:36 AM
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I couldn't trace the book "Prinzessin Masako - Der gefangene Schmetterling" by Martin Fritz & Yoko Kobayashi as an English book.
But here on the German site of amazon.de a Japanese lady has written a review (in German, unfortunately) where she claims that it' not the fact that Masako couldn't get a boy child but her character is the problem. She claims
Masako is proud, unpolite, condescending and unreliable when it comes to public appearances. Masako is siad to have caused several times public embarrasment when she was representing Japan on a trip to Australia.
That the media and more and more people of Japan don't like her and don't want her to show up in public because of her unpleasant character and the way she behaves.

You can find this review and the claims against Masako in German here: http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/3451...lance&n=299956

I don't know if this is true. It certainly hasn't been mentioned here, AFAIK. Does anyone knows more?
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  #274  
Old 08-22-2006, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Next Star
If a Japanese Princess marries a commoner she would lose her title and not recieve any financial help from the imperial family. How if she were to marry a noble she would be able to keep her title and stay finanically helped by the imperial family the only way a female would be a heir if the law is changed.
Just reading up on this thread. Thank you for all your wonderful inputs.

Well, the imperial princesses receive a one-time cash gift upon leaving the family to become commoners. The amount is determined by the IHA and is approved by either the Parliament or the Japanese Cabinet (forgot which one).

But the best thing would be for the Imperial females to retain their heritage as princesses and have a shot at the monarchy.
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  #275  
Old 08-22-2006, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily
From the posts it seems that Masako embodies both the Western and traditional Japanese ways of thinking. She came into the courtship with Naruhito raised with both western cultural practices and traditional Japanese cultural practices. With Naruhito's pledge, and probably Michiko's promises (since apparently Michiko was called in during the courtship to reassure Masako her role wouldn't be that bad) Masako decided to take on the role. Unfortunately Masako was forced to cede more aspects of her person than she had originally thought and she has paid a very heavy price. The two cultures bumped up against each other right in her person. One description of depression is "anger turned inward" and I believe that definition aptly fits what has happened to her as her western ideas clashed with traditional Japanese culture. I wish she would/could leave the system.
Very perceptive Emily. This is what Masako has basically being diagnosed with. She's suffering from "Adjustment disorder" The people who generally suffer from this disorder are Japanese returnee children. They are children who live outside of Japan for a number of years due to their fathers' work. When they return to Japan they have great difficulty in readjusting to Japanese society. Some children actually never return to a complete Japanese life, their parents decide to send them to International Schools which cater for foreign students, they graduate from International Schools and attend university in the west. There are also specialist Japanese schools that cater solely to returnee students, as well as Japanese schools who have special classes to try and reassimilate the returnee student back into the mainstream.
I spoke to an adult returnee, as when we met our common point was that she had lived in Sydney for 4 years as a child, due to her father's job. She was in Sydney from the ages of 8 to 12, she told me how extremely difficult she found it when the family returned to Japan. In Australia it was OK to feel different as it wasn't her culture, but once in Japan, she was being told this is your culture and she couldn't relate to it. She went back to regular school but graduated from one of Japan's international university and has worked in areas where she interacts with westerners. She was one of the interpreters at the Kyoto conference on the environment, and now works for a Japanese NGO outside of Japan. And that's often the course returnees take, working with foreigners or jobs with lots of foreign contact. Masako is also an example, she was a returnee and ended up working as a diplomat.
Returnee children are far more likely to leave Japan and work elsewhere in the world. Masako married into a job for life, all she can do now is work to get to spend more time overseas, this holiday is a major step for her and her family.
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  #276  
Old 08-22-2006, 11:44 AM
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Caster51..thank you so much for your input.

I understand and respect your position and the Japanese concern for tradition. For a line to have direct descendants for over 2000 years is something to treasure. As a fairly young country who has moved with the times so to speak I guess its hard for some of us (I am speaking generally of Americans..and yes, I realize that I don't speak for all) to comprehend why Aiko is not good enough so to speak to be Empress. In relation to that thought, I just find it ironic that the Japanese who appear to be cutting edge and very encouraging of its daughters would have a problem with an Empress. I also find it distressing that a country that educated and nutured Masako to become all that she can be because she represents what is good about Japan (again generally speaking) could turn on her because of what she is. She is what Nahurito wants. Her education, her smile, everything. He loves her and wants to spend the rest of his life with her. If he had wanted a Kiko (again not to speak ill of her cause I like her as well) he would have married a Kiko. I personally think that both sons picked what was best for them in terms of spouses.

But like most times in history (whether its British, American, Danish, etc.) I think people are sometimes fearful of what they don't know. How would you know thats okay to have an Empress if in most of your lifetimes you have never had one. Sometimes change is good. Especially if no other options are present. For her and her baby's sake, I hope that Kiko delivers a healthy child. I would wish for a girl because that might force those in power to come to terms with a female successor but I think that would that force more pressure on Masako. And honestly, based upon what I have heard about the IHA, I think they will totally crush her spirit.

These are just some of my thoughts and aren't directed to Caster51.
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  #277  
Old 08-22-2006, 12:16 PM
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My thought is this. If Kiko's baby isn't a boy, then the Japanese HAVE to let Aiko become empress one day, since there wouldn't be any other option. But if a boy is born, he should become emperor one day. I might be awfully old-fashioned here, but I think, that women should only be heirs to a thrown if there is no male heir. It's not that I think a woman would do a worse job as a monarch just because of her gender, heck, I'm a woman myself, but it's about tradition. The whole concept of royal and imperial houses is based on tradition anyway. If we're so concerned about equality, why have kings or emperor at all? And after all this talk about the Y-chromosome, I started thinking about our Swedish royal house. All monarchs in Sweden since the days of Jean Baptiste Bernadotte a k a Carl XIV John are descendants to him in a male line, carrying Jean Baptiste's Y-chromosome. I have nothing against Crown princess Victoria, and I think she will be a good queen one day, but she can't provide the same legacy to the Bernadotte house as her brother Carl Philip could. When they changed the succession order and made Victoria heir instead of Carl Philip, our Swedish parlament thought more about equality between the sexes than about keeping traditions alive, and I think that's a shame. Nevertheless, I think it's also a shame, if Japan's crown princess has been broken down because of the pressure of producing a son. It's unfortunate, if a 2000 year long line is broken, unless Aiko marries a noble with imperial blood on his father's side, but in this day and age, I still think allowing Aiko to be heir is better than breaking down her mother. The emperor's cousin, who suggested concubines, sure doesn't live in our time. Concubines is sure a thing of a long gone past. You might think I don't live in our time either, when I think males should come before females to a thrown, but I just see that as a far more harmless tradition than having concubines.
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  #278  
Old 08-22-2006, 12:33 PM
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If the successor is a women, why wouldn't they pass along the traditions of the mothers family. What kind of legacy could Carl Phillip pass along than Victoria? And I realize that this isn't her thread, so what kind of legacy couldn't Aiko pass along than an unamed boy baby?
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  #279  
Old 08-22-2006, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Furienna
All monarchs in Sweden since the days of Jean Baptiste Bernadotte a k a Carl XIV John are descendants to him in a male line, carrying Jean Baptiste's Y-chromosome. I have nothing against Crown princess Victoria, and I think she will be a good queen one day, but she can't provide the same legacy to the Bernadotte house as her brother Carl Philip could.
Depends if we define "Royal" only through the possession of that infamous Y-chromosome. Half of the population of the world does not even has one of these - be they Royal or non-Royal. Is this the re-entry of gender discrimination through the backdoor, I wonder? Or what is it that Crown princess Victoria can't give her children but her brother can apart from that Y-chromosome? Which is not even assuredly the one that Jean Baptiste Bernadotte brought into the family as there have been strong rumours in the 1800s in Paris that while Oscar Bernadotte was definately Desirée Clary Bernadotte's child, he was not necessarily Jean Baptiste Bernadotte's son....
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  #280  
Old 08-22-2006, 12:47 PM
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In all royal and imperial families, the succession has always followed a male line. So to make a female heir, even though she has a younger brother, just because of gender equality, will destroy a part of the tradition of the royal and imperial houses. Would Victoria's children even get the last name Bernadotte? And unless you accuse Josephine of Leuchtenberg, Sophie of Nassau, Victoria of Baden, Margaret of Connaught, Sibylla of Sachsen-Coburg and Gotha and our current queen Silvia of cheating on their husbands, the line is still carried from Oscar I, which is longer than any other royal line in Swedish history.
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