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  #1161  
Old 10-27-2019, 06:31 AM
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If things go well, and Hisahito lives up to a normal life span, they will have more than half a century to build up the public profile of the new candidate. Good PR can do wonders to that. Interestingly, the new candidate does not have much of a chance to become the Emperor himself, as Hisahito is still the heir and is still so very young. It's more likely that a son or grandson from the new line will be the one to inherit... unless Hisahito will have a son (or several?) himself. The new contender must accept that his, or his offspring's succession is far from certain.

To my knowledge, sense of duty is still very, very strong in the Japanese culture. So I believe that they could find a candidate who is willing to shoulder the burden of becoming a member of the Imperial Family, and thus do his duty to the country.

As for marriage: I hope that they don't bully one of the Princesses into accepting an arranged marriage. They can't force them, but those ultra-conservative men in the IHA might think that they can 'persuade' one of them to anyways.
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  #1162  
Old 10-27-2019, 09:04 AM
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Regarding arranged marriages being outdated let's not forget that Princess Takamado has been open with her setting up at least on of her daughters with a suitable young man so the concept is apparently not dead and buried within the Imperial family.
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  #1163  
Old 10-27-2019, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Prisma View Post
Urg... I'm all happy about the enthronement and then I see THIS article (published on October 23)

Japan lawmakers eye restoration of ex-imperial members for succession - Kyodo News

Well, who wants to return? How will this "potential successor" be vetted? What's the adoption process? Who exactly adopts him? Naruhito? Akishino? The IHA as a group?

If by marriage... well, forced marriage is against the law. Which princess is he willing to marry or vice versa?

If no one wants to return, then the National Diet wasted everyone's time and effort because the succession issue continues...

ETA: Or maybe the conservatives have found a willing candidate and the "if" doesn't mean anything?
This is the first thing that comes to my mind, but I also wonder a bit about the type of pressure that might be directed towards the unmarried princesses if a measure like this were passed into law.
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  #1164  
Old 10-27-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Tilia C. View Post
As for marriage: I hope that they don't bully one of the Princesses into accepting an arranged marriage. They can't force them, but those ultra-conservative men in the IHA might think that they can 'persuade' one of them to anyways.
Hmm, but please don't forget, that it takes (at least) two to marry. For the case of an arranged marriage the future husband will be have been somehow "persuaded" too. Poor chap...
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  #1165  
Old 10-27-2019, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Prisma View Post
Urg... I'm all happy about the enthronement and then I see THIS article (published on October 23)

Japan lawmakers eye restoration of ex-imperial members for succession - Kyodo News

Well, who wants to return? How will this "potential successor" be vetted? What's the adoption process? Who exactly adopts him? Naruhito? Akishino? The IHA as a group?

If by marriage... well, forced marriage is against the law. Which princess is he willing to marry or vice versa?

If no one wants to return, then the National Diet wasted everyone's time and effort because the succession issue continues...

ETA: Or maybe the conservatives have found a willing candidate and the "if" doesn't mean anything?
Through adoption or marriage ? I would have got their point (though not necessarily agreed) had they meant just re-instating living male line members of the collateral branches as nr 4, 5, 6 etc in the line of sucession...

But through adoption or marriage ? How would that take place ? Who would want to adopt them ? Neither The Emperor, nor the Crown Prince comes across as men who would do that... Then there is their uncle Masahito Prince Hitachi but he is 83 years old and in bad health...

Through marriage makes it sound like they are open for the idea to pressure them and Princess Aiko, Mako, Kako and the other unmarried Princess'es into arranged marriages.... But remember that they more or less bullied Masako (and her family) in to accept Naruhito's proposal so i wouldn't be surprised...
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  #1166  
Old 10-27-2019, 01:49 PM
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Perhaps we should try and reverse things.
So I'll try be the Devil's Advocate and become a Japanese ultra conservative nationalists.

- And I love this idea!
It makes perfect sense and it's a very satisfactory solution to the problem with the lack of males within the Imperial Family.

Adopting a suitable male, perhaps a young teenager, from another branch is a neat solution.
It's merely a formal process, in which he will still have his biological parents, but he will be brought up and educated within the Imperial Household enabling him to perform his duties when he becomes an adult.
It will be an honor for him and his biological family. To un-selflessly dedicating his life to the Emperor, to Japan, to the Japanese people, to his family. (You should perhaps look up the concept of "giri".)
Adopting a suitable heir is a time-honored thing and which has worked well in other great cultures.

Let us be honest. Women are by nature not the best suited to be heads of a nation, certainly not an ancient nation with a rich culture and old traditions as ours.
You can't argue with biology. Women give birth, it is their natural instinct to nurture and care for their children. To keep the family together, to ensure a stable home with a good harmony for the family. In that respect the woman is crucial.
There is not demeaning or oppressive in that. I revere and honor my wife! Had it not been for her, I and our family, would live a much less happy life. And for that I love her.

A female empress is as such not, it cannot, be the best solution.
A female head of state cannot focus herself in the same way in her official duties, while thinking about her young children at home. That is the female caring instinct, which cannot and should not be suppressed.
A male emperor can focus much more on his duties, knowing full well, that his children and home is cared for by a devoted wife and mother.

A male emperor has other advantages. A male emperor will not be divisive in the same way than a female. Especially in regards to the many traditionalists in this country. I being one.
A male emperor, will be default, command more respect abroad when visiting foreign countries that have a more patriarchal culture.
A male emperor doesn't suffer from the effects of pregnancies and the aftermath of giving birth, and as such can devote himself 365 days a year to his duties.
There are also certain things a female empress cannot carry out in regards to Shinto.

Can he not find a suitable partner in life on his own accord, an arranged setup is very much a desirable option. It has after all worked admirably for most of the time of human civilization.
They will grow to love and honor each other. A foundation that is often much stronger once the tenuous process of falling in love has subsided.
Marrying purely for love is after all a very recent concept - and just look at the divorce statistics...
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  #1167  
Old 10-27-2019, 01:58 PM
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I think that for the Japanese Imperial Court, this reasoning is, unfortunately, very accurate.
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  #1168  
Old 10-27-2019, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Regarding arranged marriages being outdated let's not forget that Princess Takamado has been open with her setting up at least on of her daughters with a suitable young man so the concept is apparently not dead and buried within the Imperial family.
Yes, putting young people next to each other at the dinner table and keeping finger's crossed that they get on well is still a rather common thing in certain circles. It happens often enough that both parties agree to an arranged marriage because they are not averse to each other and see other advantages in the match. But I hope that the times of forced marriage, where one of the parties (usually the bride) has to enter a marriage against their will, are history in Japan. I guess that from the outside it is difficult to assess how much pressure the IHA would put on the Princesses.
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  #1169  
Old 10-27-2019, 02:08 PM
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Poll: Public supports female ascending throne | NHK WORLD-JAPAN News (published October 21)
Quote:
An NHK poll shows that over 70 percent of respondents are in favor of a woman ascending to the Imperial throne. It also indicates that public knowledge of the Imperial system is inadequate.

NHK conducted the telephone survey late last month.
More than 1,500 people responded.

[...]

Asked if changes in the Imperial system are needed to ensure the stability of succession, 54 percent answered "yes" while 31 percent said "no."

[...]

Asked about allowing a woman to become Emperor, 74 percent were in favor, far outnumbering 12 percent who were against.

Support for a female Emperor was particularly strong at 90 percent among those between the ages of 18 and 29.

On whether to allow a child of a female Emperor to ascend to the throne, 71 percent were in favor while 13 percent were against.

But when asked if they know the meaning of that kind of ascension, 42 percent of respondents replied that they do. However, a majority, or 52 percent, said they either don't know or know very little.

[...]

The latest poll has revealed inadequate public literacy about the Imperial system, while discussions are being undertaken about ways to stabilize the Imperial succession.
81% back idea of Japan having female emperor: Kyodo News poll (published October 28)
Quote:
A whopping 81.9 percent of respondents to a Kyodo News survey over the weekend said they are in favor of the idea of Japan having a female emperor, while 13.5 percent indicated they are opposed.

[...]

Regarding whether to allow heirs of female lineage to ascend the throne, 70.0 percent in the poll supported the idea, while 21.9 percent were against it.

The nationwide telephone poll conducted on Saturday and Sunday, covering 732 randomly selected households with eligible voters as well as 1,282 mobile phone numbers, obtained responses from 505 and 504 people, respectively.

Earlier last week, a conservative group within Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's Liberal Democratic Party finalized proposals to allow men from now-abolished collateral branches of the imperial family to rejoin it, as part of measures to ensure stable male-line succession.

The group's ideas include having unmarried male members of the former branches join the imperial family through adoption or marriage, if they want to. It has suggested the creation of a law to enable this as an emergency measure, instead of revising the Imperial House Law, and is against allowing women to remain imperial family members after marriage.

[...]
ETA: Updated Kyodo article
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  #1170  
Old 10-28-2019, 02:15 AM
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Sankei, the conservative newspaper, outlines the proposal made by 44 LDP members for unmarried males from the ex-Imperial branches to return to Imperial status:
1) adoption by a male Imperial member or as son-in-law of female Imperial member
2) the candidate must be willing to return to Imperial status

It acknowledges marriage "must be based on free will." (What about free will in adoption? Could Prince Hitachi be forced to adopt an heir?)

According to the proposal, the ex-Imperial branches have 7 unmarried males: 5 in their teens and 2 in their early 20s.
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  #1171  
Old 10-28-2019, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Japanese adult adoption is the practice in Japan of legally and socially accepting a nonconsanguineal adult into an offspring role of a family. The centuries-old practice was developed as a mechanism for families to extend their family name, estate and ancestry without an unwieldy reliance on blood lines. Still common today, adult adoption is a dynamic tool for social and economic mobility.
Quote:
Japan is characterized by one of the highest adoption rates in the world; over 81,000 legal, domestic adoptions were brokered in Japan in 2011.[4] Though different types of adoption occur in Japan, adoption to secure a familial heir is the most prevalent. Adoptions to secure heirs have steadily escalated from 73% of all Japanese adoptions in the mid 20th century to over 98% of all adoptions in 2004. Although these regular adoptions may include children or adults, the vast majority of the adoptees are childless adult males. Over 90% of the 81,000 people adopted in Japan in 2011 were adult males in their 20s and 30s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_adult_adoption


As you can see adoptions to secure heirs is normal practice in Japan. They use to it.
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  #1172  
Old 10-28-2019, 07:03 AM
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So if they are determined to rob the legitimate Crown Princess of her throne why can the Emperor not adopt her future husband
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  #1173  
Old 10-28-2019, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
So if they are determined to rob the legitimate Crown Princess of her throne why can the Emperor not adopt her future husband
She is not a Crown princess and she never was a Crown princess.
Akishino is a Crown prince now.
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  #1174  
Old 10-28-2019, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
She is not a Crown princess and she never was a Crown princess.
Akishino is a Crown prince now.
Correct. Although we may disagree, she is not and never was the “ legitimate Crown Princess “ as that is not the Japanese law.
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  #1175  
Old 10-28-2019, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Perhaps we should try and reverse things.
So I'll try be the Devil's Advocate and become a Japanese ultra conservative nationalists.
Thank you for the imitation of an ultraconservative nationalist, Muhler. I think one of "your" ultranationalist's points, which I've bolded, deserves underscoring:

Quote:
Let us be honest. Women are by nature not the best suited to be heads of a nation, certainly not an ancient nation with a rich culture and old traditions as ours.
You can't argue with biology. Women give birth, it is their natural instinct to nurture and care for their children. To keep the family together, to ensure a stable home with a good harmony for the family. In that respect the woman is crucial.
There is not demeaning or oppressive in that. I revere and honor my wife! Had it not been for her, I and our family, would live a much less happy life. And for that I love her.

A female empress is as such not, it cannot, be the best solution.
A female head of state cannot focus herself in the same way in her official duties, while thinking about her young children at home. That is the female caring instinct, which cannot and should not be suppressed.
A male emperor can focus much more on his duties, knowing full well, that his children and home is cared for by a devoted wife and mother.

A male emperor has other advantages. A male emperor will not be divisive in the same way than a female. Especially in regards to the many traditionalists in this country. I being one.
A male emperor, will be default, command more respect abroad when visiting foreign countries that have a more patriarchal culture.
A male emperor doesn't suffer from the effects of pregnancies and the aftermath of giving birth, and as such can devote himself 365 days a year to his duties.
There are also certain things a female empress cannot carry out in regards to Shinto.
If it were true that a woman emperor's natural instinct would be to nurture and care, to ensure stability and harmony, she would be well placed to continue leading the monarchy and the nation along the path paved by the postwar Constitution and the Emperor Emeritus. She would be wholly qualified to pray for peace, express remorse over the atrocities inflicted on its neighbors, pay respects to other countries as equals, and visit her citizens to encourage them in times of disaster and share in their future.

But the ultranationalists would find themselves unable to rely on such a monarch to secure their vision, which demands a commanding imperial patriarch honored and obeyed by his subservient wife, children, and subjects, echoing a Japan restored to unapologetic dominance over lesser nations.

That is, of course, merely my own sense of the feelings of many ultranationalist monarchists; I am sure there are ultranationalists and monarchists who would disagree.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisma View Post
I wonder why it is the under-30s and over-70s who seem to have more confidence in the stability of the current system.


Quote:
On whether to allow a child of a female Emperor to ascend to the throne, 71 percent were in favor while 13 percent were against.

But when asked if they know the meaning of that kind of ascension, 42 percent of respondents replied that they do. However, a majority, or 52 percent, said they either don't know or know very little.

[...]

The latest poll has revealed inadequate public literacy about the Imperial system, while discussions are being undertaken about ways to stabilize the Imperial succession.
What is the "meaning of that kind of ascension" which the majority say they don't know?
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  #1176  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
But the ultranationalists would find themselves unable to rely on such a monarch to secure their vision, which demands a commanding imperial patriarch honored and obeyed by his subservient wife, children, and subjects, echoing a Japan restored to unapologetic dominance over lesser nations.
Interestingly enough, I don't perceive either the former nor the current emperor as 'commanding respect' in a more traditional 'male warrior' type of way. Both men seem rather 'soft' and understanding (nurturing and caring if you'd like).
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  #1177  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Interestingly enough, I don't perceive either the former nor the current emperor as 'commanding respect' in a more traditional 'male warrior' type of way. Both men seem rather 'soft' and understanding (nurturing and caring if you'd like).
I absolutely agree (the former emperor appears to behave authoritatively in his private relations, but without bringing that attitude into the public arena), and I think that is a considerable factor in their personal unpopularity with ultranationalists.
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  #1178  
Old 10-29-2019, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thank you for the imitation of an ultraconservative nationalist, Muhler. I think one of "your" ultranationalist's points, which I've bolded, deserves underscoring:



If it were true that a woman emperor's natural instinct would be to nurture and care, to ensure stability and harmony, she would be well placed to continue leading the monarchy and the nation along the path paved by the postwar Constitution and the Emperor Emeritus. She would be wholly qualified to pray for peace, express remorse over the atrocities inflicted on its neighbors, pay respects to other countries as equals, and visit her citizens to encourage them in times of disaster and share in their future.

But the ultranationalists would find themselves unable to rely on such a monarch to secure their vision, which demands a commanding imperial patriarch honored and obeyed by his subservient wife, children, and subjects, echoing a Japan restored to unapologetic dominance over lesser nations.

That is, of course, merely my own sense of the feelings of many ultranationalist monarchists; I am sure there are ultranationalists and monarchists who would disagree.
Absolutely!

Transforming myself into an ultra-nationalist I will point out that is exactly these feminine qualities that makes an empress so eminently suited and vital in creating and ensuring harmony, both within the Imperial Household and Japan as a whole - in support of her husband, the emperor.
The mother of the nation. Just as the father of the nation, the emperor. That's the natural order.
Atrocities?!? What atrocities? There were no atrocities and therefore no reason to be apologetic about anything. On the contrary we should honor and revere our brave soldiers who fought and died for their emperor, country and people. They were true role-models.
There were a few regrettable, but highly exaggerated incidents in the chaos of war. That happens in every war. But certainly no systematic atrocities as has been suggested by foreign anti-Japanese elements.
In fact I'd much rather talk about the irrefutable American atrocities committed against Japan and the plight of Japanese prisoners by the Soviets.

No, no, no, there is nothing subservient about being a traditional women, mother and wife. On the contrary, it's merely the most natural family-constellation. Just as it has been since ancient times. And that worked well, right?
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  #1179  
Old 11-11-2019, 05:15 AM
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Some in Japanese government calling for women to head their own imperial family branches | The Japan Times
Quote:
[...]

The government plans to start talks on the issue as soon as after the Daijosai thanksgiving ritual performed by Emperor Naruhito on Thursday and Friday, the sources said.

[....]

The main focus of the discussion was scheduled to be whether to allow women or heirs in the maternal line of the imperial family to assume the throne, in line with a proposal put forward in 2005 by an expert panel commissioned by the government of Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi.

The possibility of a reigning empress is popular among the public.

According to a Kyodo News poll conducted late last month, 81.9 percent of respondents said they are in favor of having a reigning empress, while 13.5 percent were against the idea. In addition, 70 percent said they would support an emperor or a reigning empress from the female line, meaning that the monarch’s mother would have descended from the imperial family rather than their father, while 21.9 percent said they were against it.

[...]

Still, a decision on the succession issue can wait 30 to 40 years, a senior government official said.

[...]

Thus, some in the government are calling for allowing female members to remain in the family even after marriage.

A government official said permitting female branches should be an option since the measure is different from the idea of allowing women or their descendants to take the throne.

Conservatives, however, also disagree with the female branch proposal.

[...]

A conservative group in the ruling Liberal Democratic Party last month proposed that men from previously severed branches of the imperial family rejoin it in order to ensure stable male succession.

To sustain the imperial family, the group came up with ideas such as letting unmarried men in the former branches marry into or be adopted by the family.

The group suggested creating a law on this as an emergency measure, instead of revising the Imperial Household Law.
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  #1180  
Old 11-12-2019, 06:54 AM
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Muhler, I think you have a pretty clear understanding of the ultranationalists' convictions.

Quote:
The proposal is seen as serving to defer discussions over whether to allow women or their descendants to ascend to the throne itself to become emperor or empress.
It was a bit unexpected to read that the Abe government planned to begin discussing maternal branches in short order, rather than deferring it for as long as humanly possible, and I wondered about their intentions. That (if true) answers my question.

It's interesting that behind the scenes the government is apparently split over the issue, though I'm sure the Prime Minister won't make any concessions.

Quote:
Still, a decision on the succession issue can wait 30 to 40 years, a senior government official said.
And strictly speaking the official is likely correct, which explains why the Emperor Emeritus's calls for male-preference female succession have gained little ground after the birth of Prince Hisahito.
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