Succession and Membership Issues

[soCal girl]

I dont hope only for Masako's line.
I want a just Succession of male line.
in my opinion, masako is not doing good job yet.
she can not adapt her job yet though she is clever
masako and aiko will have more trouble and pains in the future.

Are most people not happy with Masako in Japan? I know it may seem like she hasn't done much but she was this clever, free woman before her marriage and now she's in a glorified prison (just my opinion). I just want a Japanese perspective about Masako. Are the people upset that she hasn't produced a boy even though it is common knowledge that it's the sperm that determines gender? Does anybody question the IHA?

Sorry for all the questions.

 

[tete]

I welcome entering of female foreigner's blood into the emperor.
blood has a nothing to do with an Emperor.
because it does not chage a gareatest father of the japanese, that is , Amaterasu.


http://www.isejingu.or.jp/english/index.htm

ok i completely understand your view, i also think it is necessary that there are parts of your culture should not be changed. what u meant earlier was that you'd accept aiko as empress as long as the line of succession doesn't change entirely and that it would be best if she produces a male heir in the future.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I couldn't trace the book "Prinzessin Masako - Der gefangene Schmetterling" by Martin Fritz & Yoko Kobayashi as an English book.
But here on the German site of amazon.de a Japanese lady has written a review (in German, unfortunately) where she claims that it' not the fact that Masako couldn't get a boy child but her character is the problem. She claims
Masako is proud, unpolite, condescending and unreliable when it comes to public appearances. Masako is siad to have caused several times public embarrasment when she was representing Japan on a trip to Australia.
That the media and more and more people of Japan don't like her and don't want her to show up in public because of her unpleasant character and the way she behaves.

You can find this review and the claims against Masako in German here: http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/3451286564/028-0708631-0624555?v=glance&n=299956

I don't know if this is true. It certainly hasn't been mentioned here, AFAIK. Does anyone knows more?

 

[monica17]

If a Japanese Princess marries a commoner she would lose her title and not recieve any financial help from the imperial family. How if she were to marry a noble she would be able to keep her title and stay finanically helped by the imperial family the only way a female would be a heir if the law is changed.

Just reading up on this thread. Thank you for all your wonderful inputs.

Well, the imperial princesses receive a one-time cash gift upon leaving the family to become commoners. The amount is determined by the IHA and is approved by either the Parliament or the Japanese Cabinet (forgot which one).

But the best thing would be for the Imperial females to retain their heritage as princesses and have a shot at the monarchy.

 

[Charlotte1]

From the posts it seems that Masako embodies both the Western and traditional Japanese ways of thinking. She came into the courtship with Naruhito raised with both western cultural practices and traditional Japanese cultural practices. With Naruhito's pledge, and probably Michiko's promises (since apparently Michiko was called in during the courtship to reassure Masako her role wouldn't be that bad) Masako decided to take on the role. Unfortunately Masako was forced to cede more aspects of her person than she had originally thought and she has paid a very heavy price. The two cultures bumped up against each other right in her person. One description of depression is "anger turned inward" and I believe that definition aptly fits what has happened to her as her western ideas clashed with traditional Japanese culture. I wish she would/could leave the system.

Very perceptive Emily. This is what Masako has basically being diagnosed with. She's suffering from "Adjustment disorder" The people who generally suffer from this disorder are Japanese returnee children. They are children who live outside of Japan for a number of years due to their fathers' work. When they return to Japan they have great difficulty in readjusting to Japanese society. Some children actually never return to a complete Japanese life, their parents decide to send them to International Schools which cater for foreign students, they graduate from International Schools and attend university in the west. There are also specialist Japanese schools that cater solely to returnee students, as well as Japanese schools who have special classes to try and reassimilate the returnee student back into the mainstream.
I spoke to an adult returnee, as when we met our common point was that she had lived in Sydney for 4 years as a child, due to her father's job. She was in Sydney from the ages of 8 to 12, she told me how extremely difficult she found it when the family returned to Japan. In Australia it was OK to feel different as it wasn't her culture, but once in Japan, she was being told this is your culture and she couldn't relate to it. She went back to regular school but graduated from one of Japan's international university and has worked in areas where she interacts with westerners. She was one of the interpreters at the Kyoto conference on the environment, and now works for a Japanese NGO outside of Japan. And that's often the course returnees take, working with foreigners or jobs with lots of foreign contact. Masako is also an example, she was a returnee and ended up working as a diplomat.
Returnee children are far more likely to leave Japan and work elsewhere in the world. Masako married into a job for life, all she can do now is work to get to spend more time overseas, this holiday is a major step for her and her family.

 

[Zonk]

Caster51..thank you so much for your input.

I understand and respect your position and the Japanese concern for tradition. For a line to have direct descendants for over 2000 years is something to treasure. As a fairly young country who has moved with the times so to speak I guess its hard for some of us (I am speaking generally of Americans..and yes, I realize that I don't speak for all) to comprehend why Aiko is not good enough so to speak to be Empress. In relation to that thought, I just find it ironic that the Japanese who appear to be cutting edge and very encouraging of its daughters would have a problem with an Empress. I also find it distressing that a country that educated and nutured Masako to become all that she can be because she represents what is good about Japan (again generally speaking) could turn on her because of what she is. She is what Nahurito wants. Her education, her smile, everything. He loves her and wants to spend the rest of his life with her. If he had wanted a Kiko (again not to speak ill of her cause I like her as well) he would have married a Kiko. I personally think that both sons picked what was best for them in terms of spouses.

But like most times in history (whether its British, American, Danish, etc.) I think people are sometimes fearful of what they don't know. How would you know thats okay to have an Empress if in most of your lifetimes you have never had one. Sometimes change is good. Especially if no other options are present. For her and her baby's sake, I hope that Kiko delivers a healthy child. I would wish for a girl because that might force those in power to come to terms with a female successor but I think that would that force more pressure on Masako. And honestly, based upon what I have heard about the IHA, I think they will totally crush her spirit.

These are just some of my thoughts and aren't directed to Caster51.

 

[Furienna]

My thought is this. If Kiko's baby isn't a boy, then the Japanese HAVE to let Aiko become empress one day, since there wouldn't be any other option. But if a boy is born, he should become emperor one day. I might be awfully old-fashioned here, but I think, that women should only be heirs to a thrown if there is no male heir. It's not that I think a woman would do a worse job as a monarch just because of her gender, heck, I'm a woman myself, but it's about tradition. The whole concept of royal and imperial houses is based on tradition anyway. If we're so concerned about equality, why have kings or emperor at all? And after all this talk about the Y-chromosome, I started thinking about our Swedish royal house. All monarchs in Sweden since the days of Jean Baptiste Bernadotte a k a Carl XIV John are descendants to him in a male line, carrying Jean Baptiste's Y-chromosome. I have nothing against Crown princess Victoria, and I think she will be a good queen one day, but she can't provide the same legacy to the Bernadotte house as her brother Carl Philip could. When they changed the succession order and made Victoria heir instead of Carl Philip, our Swedish parlament thought more about equality between the sexes than about keeping traditions alive, and I think that's a shame. Nevertheless, I think it's also a shame, if Japan's crown princess has been broken down because of the pressure of producing a son. It's unfortunate, if a 2000 year long line is broken, unless Aiko marries a noble with imperial blood on his father's side, but in this day and age, I still think allowing Aiko to be heir is better than breaking down her mother. The emperor's cousin, who suggested concubines, sure doesn't live in our time. Concubines is sure a thing of a long gone past. You might think I don't live in our time either, when I think males should come before females to a thrown, but I just see that as a far more harmless tradition than having concubines.

 

[Zonk]

If the successor is a women, why wouldn't they pass along the traditions of the mothers family. What kind of legacy could Carl Phillip pass along than Victoria? And I realize that this isn't her thread, so what kind of legacy couldn't Aiko pass along than an unamed boy baby?

 

[Jo of Palatine]

All monarchs in Sweden since the days of Jean Baptiste Bernadotte a k a Carl XIV John are descendants to him in a male line, carrying Jean Baptiste's Y-chromosome. I have nothing against Crown princess Victoria, and I think she will be a good queen one day, but she can't provide the same legacy to the Bernadotte house as her brother Carl Philip could.

Depends if we define "Royal" only through the possession of that infamous Y-chromosome. Half of the population of the world does not even has one of these - be they Royal or non-Royal. Is this the re-entry of gender discrimination through the backdoor, I wonder? Or what is it that Crown princess Victoria can't give her children but her brother can apart from that Y-chromosome? Which is not even assuredly the one that Jean Baptiste Bernadotte brought into the family as there have been strong rumours in the 1800s in Paris that while Oscar Bernadotte was definately Desirée Clary Bernadotte's child, he was not necessarily Jean Baptiste Bernadotte's son....

 

[Furienna]

In all royal and imperial families, the succession has always followed a male line. So to make a female heir, even though she has a younger brother, just because of gender equality, will destroy a part of the tradition of the royal and imperial houses. Would Victoria's children even get the last name Bernadotte? And unless you accuse Josephine of Leuchtenberg, Sophie of Nassau, Victoria of Baden, Margaret of Connaught, Sibylla of Sachsen-Coburg and Gotha and our current queen Silvia of cheating on their husbands, the line is still carried from Oscar I, which is longer than any other royal line in Swedish history.

 

[Emily]

Caster51, once again I appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions. I am not completely sure I understand a couple of the answers -- when you say "don't cry over spilled milk", are you saying that since Aiko is the only child of Naruhito and happens to be a female, that she should inherit the throne? Also, I am curious to know what specifically the complaints are about Masako...and is Naruhito a popular Crown Prince?

As far as traditions being held onto for traditions sake -- well, I guess I'm just not from that school. Traditions are great to a point but it always bears remembering that they too were created at a set time and for a set society to fulfill certain needs, and as times change, so too meaningless traditions. Now I understand "meaningless" will be interpreted differently by different people -- but my point is I think it is good to keep an open mind about these things.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

In all royal and imperial families, the succession has always followed a male line. So to make a female heir, even though she has a younger brother, just because of gender equality, will destroy a part of the tradition of the royal and imperial houses. Would Victoria's children even get the last name Bernadotte? And unless you accuse Josephine of Leuchtenberg, Sophie of Nassau, Victoria of Baden, Margaret of Connaught, Sibylla of Sachsen-Coburg and Gotha and our current queen Silvia of cheating on their husbands, the line is still carried from Oscar I, which is longer than any other royal line in Swedish history.

As we're here to talk about the succession in Japan, just let me say that after Christina I. of Sweden the Royal Wasa-bloodline went via the female line to the Wittelsbach of the Palatinate and then to the Schleswig-Holstein before the Bernadottes became the Royal family of Sweden. Thus Sweden has a very long tradition of succession via the female bloodline.

 

[Elspeth]

Princess Kiko is also a returnee, although she was only out of the country when she was a young child, as opposed to Princess Masako, who was in Europe and the States on and off for most of her life before her marriage. It seems as though Princess Kiko adjusted a lot better to returning to Japan than many youngsters do.

But, see, I think this is what bbb was driving at in her post about the "evil IHA." Obviously we're looking at things from a western point of view, and things which are quite normal in other cultures seem unnecessarily cruel to us and no doubt vice versa. With this known track record of adjustment problems in young people who have spent a lot of time out of the country, the IHA seemed to go out of their way to make Masako's life more difficult. If exposure to foreign cultures is helpful to these people, then telling her that she may not set foot outside the country is counterproductive to say the least. So now they're reaping the rewards of this policy with a marriage that produced one child and one (that we know of) miscarriage, a badly damaged psyche, a succession crisis, and a family at odds with itself. You'll have to excuse people for characterising this as deliberate and unnecessary cruelty, because from a western perspective that's exactly what it looks like.

 

[Elspeth]

I couldn't trace the book "Prinzessin Masako - Der gefangene Schmetterling" by Martin Fritz & Yoko Kobayashi as an English book.
But here on the German site of amazon.de a Japanese lady has written a review (in German, unfortunately) where she claims that it' not the fact that Masako couldn't get a boy child but her character is the problem. She claims
Masako is proud, unpolite, condescending and unreliable when it comes to public appearances. Masako is siad to have caused several times public embarrasment when she was representing Japan on a trip to Australia.
That the media and more and more people of Japan don't like her and don't want her to show up in public because of her unpleasant character and the way she behaves.

You can find this review and the claims against Masako in German here: http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/3451286564/028-0708631-0624555?v=glance&n=299956

I don't know if this is true. It certainly hasn't been mentioned here, AFAIK. Does anyone knows more?

Apparently there's an anti-Masako website somewhere, where this sort of thing is bandied about and everything she does is criticised. They also say that Aiko is autistic or retarded or whatever the term of the day is, as well as being dangerously aggressive to other children (Princess Amalia looked to be in grave danger, didn't she? ). This review may have been written by a member of that group because it seems to be repeating a lot of stuff that's standard fare there. It doesn't say anything about Masako having Asperger's, does it? That's another of their nice little claims.

 

[Gloriana]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

They also say that Aiko is autistic or retarded or whatever the term of the day is, as well as being dangerously aggressive to other children

Sheesh - it's one thing to attack Masako (which is nasty, don't get me wrong), but to attack Aiko, an innocent child, now that's an entirely lower level of low!

 

[Avalon]

It is really disgusting that they attack an innocent child for whatever reason.
I never noticed Aiko being agressive or something. If anything, she is a very shy and calm child.

 

[caster51]

she's in a glorified prison (just my opinion). I just want a Japanese perspective about Masako. Are the people upset that she hasn't produced a boy even though it is common knowledge that it's the sperm that determines gender? Does anybody question the IHA?

I kike masako very much.
she is clever and she have a dignity.

yes she chose glorifield prison.
she must give up from the pressure of succession early.
I mean she should do her best as a next Emperor's wife and give succession up.

 

[Zonk]

Caster51..what do you mean about give succession up? Do you mean have a male heir?

 

[caster51]

I think the problem of succession will give many troubles and pains to masako and Aiko even in the future.
can they endure so many pressures in glorifield prison ?...
At first..
she should look for how to open pressure of succssion herself.
I dont hope only masako's.

PPl must consider to revive other decendants by law.
I mean an emperor in hirohito line will be finished

 

[caster51]

meaningless traditions. Now I understand "meaningless" will be interpreted differently by different people -- but my point is I think it is good to keep an open mind about these things

.

in japan ,some "meaningless traditions" are still kept from ancient time and we are proud of that.

real meaningless things will be disapear because there is no value of existence.

when you say "don't cry over spilled milk", are you saying that since Aiko is the only child of Naruhito and happens to be a female, that she should inherit the throne?

no , she is ok
the problem is next aiko

if Aiko's child will be an emperor as next aiko........"......cry over spilled milk"

many female emperor in the past avoided that with risk of her life .

 

[Jo of Palatine]

.

no , she is ok
the problem is next aiko

if Aiko's child will be an emperor as next aiko........"......cry over spilled milk"

many female emperor in the past avoided that with risk of her life .

Caster51, do I understand you correctly that you mean that it's ok for Aiko to be the next empress because she is from the right, male line. Aiko for empress won't be the actual breach with tradition.

But her kids would be, thus the problem will start only for Aiko's heir or heiress. And that's what the former female emperors avoided: to have own kids and to leave the inheritance to them because they were not from the right line?

Hm... Well, I see the sense of your words. But still Japan is changing and with it the opinion of the people. So far, tradition seems to keep the Imperial family from really building a life for them that has more meaning then just being symbols of the great past of Japan. I can understand that you are afraid that there is no longer sense in having an Imperial family if they are not longer the genuine thing in the eyes of the traditionalists.

But - there could be a deeper sense in having this family on top of Japan's society besides them being the carriers of ancient bloodlines. Maybe the succession crisis ís a chance to redefine the concept of monarchy in Japan. Prince Naruhito and his brother already did a lot of steps into this direction - they attend international conferences and they work as envoys for Japan.

I understand that it's difficult with the constitution the Americans forced on Japan - we had similar problems when it came to the reunification of Germany and Austria's former Imperial family still suffers from laws which were enforced on the young democratic Republic of Austria by the Russians after WWII. Japan, Germany and Austria lost this war (and rightfully so) but that was 60 years ago and somehow it seems to be time to address the problems deriving from the influence the victors had on the internal affairs óf these countries and seek a solution which is in accord with the modern times. IMHO.

 

[Charlotte1]

Charlotte - I find your post both interesting and somewhat alarming. Interesting in that this has been a recognized phenomenon but alarming in that, if schools have been established to help returnees, why wasn't Masako's family/the Imperial Family aware of the risks that might be involved for her? It takes time to establish schools so I assume you mean these have existed for at least the past 15 years which would encompass the time prior to Masako even entering the courtship with Naruhito. And you would think going from great personal and intellectual freedom to such an ultra conservative institution as the Imperial Family would set off alarm bells for her parents, at the very least, because they are "out and about" in the world. Was it really duty/sacrifice for the "We" vs. the "I", did she have social ambitions herself (clearly no one is perfect even though I am not into blaming the victim, either), was it truly love for Naruhito -- what was it that really made her get into this? I'd love to know. I have great empathy for this woman, though. I probably said this point too much already but my hope is that this trip will allow her not only freedom and rest, but the chance to connect with some of her western crown princess counterparts. I should think communicating with them would provide a window, however small, through which she can breathe western air, ideas, freedom -- the things she grew up with.

Naruhito was a very persistant suitor, Masako actually turned down his proposals of marriage initally, ( more than once) but he wouldn't give up and pursued her over a number of years. She had, quite rightly, concerns that she wasn't the woman for the job, to be fair to the courtiers of the IHA they didn't think she was either, particularly as she had spent so much time outside of Japan. Naruhito was the one who wouldn't be disuaded from wanting her as his wife. He even had his mother go and speak to Masako and tell it her life wouldn't be that bad. ( From Michiko's point of view it wouldn't be as she and Akihito had already fought and won the major battle to be allowed to bring up their own children, also as Emperor and Empress they had every intention of not interfering in Naruhito's household as their inlaws had with them)

Eventually Naruhito convinced her to say yes by saying that she would be able to continue her diplomatic work but just in a different form, as a crown princess. He also promised to support and protect her, which to his credit he has tried even to the extent of a public outburst. As to why Masako finally agreed to marry Naruhito we can only speculate, it certainly wasn't for social climbing, she would have had a much higher social status had she climbed the diplomatic ranks. It's only with hind sight that we can see that Masako had been right to refuse Naruhito's proposals, but he wanted her ( and really wore down her objections to her suitability for the role he was asking her to take on, he also spoke to her parents and convinced them Masako would be OK) Probably ( naively with hindsight) he thought that his parents had paved the way for a more 'diplomatic' type of crown prince and princess, as they had taken on that role with mulitple overseas trips and meetings. And really had been the acceptable face of the Japanese recovery after WW2, Emperor Hirohito was tainted by his participation in WW2.

Masako not having a child within the first few years of marriage really wasn't something that could have been taken into consideration beforehand with the result that overseas trips were deliberately not planned for them in the hope that Masako would fall pregnant. I think the scenario would have been different had she had become pregnant and had a son within the first few years of marriage, as far as the courtiers of the IHA would have been concerned she had done her duty, fulfilled her obligation to the continuation of the Imperial Family and therefore could go and do whatever she wanted ( within certain structures of course!)

In regards to schools for returnees, the government doesn't really see it as such an important issue that they've done something about it. I worked in Osaka and the region around it is called Kansai which has a population of about 12 million people. There is one private school for returnee children and a handful of government schools that have a special class for returnee children. But these classes were established for returnee students to bring their level of reading and writing in Japanese to the standard of their peers. It's evolved that they have also become a support and assistance to returnee children to reassilimate, but that's not what they were originally set up for. I'm guessing that Tokyo which would have a greater proportion of returnee students would also have private schools for returnees as well as classes in regular schools for them. But they are not government initiatives and acknowledgement that these children need support or that it's a problem. And there's a miniscule number of them. Japanese psychologists obviously acknowledge that returnees need support as they're the ones to come up with the term "Adjustment disorder" and that's it's a real problem to those who suffer from it.

 

[Charlotte1]

You'll have to excuse people for characterising this as deliberate and unnecessary cruelty, because from a western perspective that's exactly what it looks like.

But I'm trying to have people realise that there is more than one way of looking at things. To see issues beyond their cultural norms. To Japanese eyes it's not unnecessary cruelty, that's just the way it is. It's not totally fair to condemn the courtiers of the IHA for doing the job they have devoted their lives to and call them evil because their cultural norms are different to yours. ( not any 'you' specifically, a collective 'you'!)

 

[caster51]

because they were not from the right line?

yes , they were not from the right line.
some female emperors did not marry to fix male line
Recently..oops 250years ago..
similarly problem was happend.
they avoided it by receiving adopted child in male line

Prince Naruhito and his brother already did a lot of steps into this direction - they attend international conferences and they work as envoys for Japan.

Yes, you are right.
that is why Japan should look for new candidate to educate for after them
that is , all decendants in male line( including northern imperial court)
therefore, Japan should recover their imperial registers that GHQ take away because of their education at first .

 

[Emily]

So is it possible that Aiko could become Empress and then pass the succession to a son of Akihito/Kiko, if that is what they have?

 

[Jo of Palatine]

So is it possible that Aiko could become Empress and then pass the succession to a son of Akihito/Kiko, if that is what they have?

I don't think Aiko would mind to marry one of her distant cousins if he is a nice enough guy. Just remember how princes Naruhito and Akihito "matchmaked" their sister princess Nori with their old school pal. I'm convinced the former princess is able to talk whenever she wants to her parents - on the phone or via a private visit. So these traditions seem to change. But if the unbroken male line is such a topic in Japan, I don't think a Japanese-bred girl will mind too much marrying the right man.

I mean if you read the autobiographies/diaries of European princesses you can see that the Royal ladies did not mind to be forced to marry within their social circle - they only opposed certain men! Quite some of them (like Wilhelmine of Prussia, sister of Frederick the Great or Lovisa Ulrika, another sister who became queen of Sweden) were allowed to refuse their first suitors and found finally a suitable husband whom to love and cherish (or at least to live dignified at his side). Elisabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate refused the duke of Kurland, but finally agreed to marry duke Philippe of Orleans, brother of French king Louis XIV. And while the marriage was not overly happy, the duchesse d'Orleans managed to find her place at the French court and, when her brother-in-law died and her son became the prince regent for toddler king Louis XV., she was the uncrowned queen and grandest dame at the court of Versailles till she died.

It depends on character, I'd guess, but if my family had asked me to marry one of a special selected group of men, I'm sure I'd found one to be at least the legal father of my kids....

 

[caster51]

So is it possible that Aiko could become Empress and then pass the succession to a son of Akihito/Kiko, if that is what they have?

I dont konw....

i think masako should look for some candidates in male line as a fiance of aiko.

 

[Emily]

Jo of Palatine -- I think that is really interesting and true. In fact, Aiko may have an easier time adjusting to her life and all of "our" perceived restrictions because this is the only life she has known (assuming she'll be raised/schooled in Japan). So a marriage within that circle will not provoke the issues it has raised with her mother.

 

[Elspeth]

Eventually Naruhito convinced her to say yes by saying that she would beable to continue her diplomatic work but just in a different form, as a crown princess. He also promised to support and protect her, which to his credit he has tried even to the extent of a public outburst. As to why Masako finally agreed to marry Naruhito we can only speculate, it certainly wasn't for social climbing, she would have had a much higher social status had she climbed the diplomatic ranks.

I don't know how true this is, but didn't her father get some sort of promotion after the engagement was announced? If her own family was putting pressure on her as well as Naruhito doing it, it might have been more than she could fight.

 

[Elspeth]

But I'm trying to have people realise that there is more than one way of looking at things. To see issues beyond their cultural norms. To Japanese eyes it's not unnecessary cruelty, that's just the way it is. It's not totally fair to condemn the courtiers of the IHA for doing the job they have devoted their lives to and call them evil because their cultural norms are different to yours. ( not any 'you' specifically, a collective 'you'!)

I think it would be hard to be a regular reader in this forum and not have figured out that Japanese culture is fundamentally different from western culture in, among other things, the need for people to conform. That doesn't alter the fact that by our standards, which presumably bbb was referring to, the IHA's treatment of Masako was unnecessarily callous and doomed to failure pretty much from the start, given the known problems with people who have had extensive exposure to western culture while young, along with her reluctance to get sucked into the imperial system.