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  #61  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ista View Post
The flight to Japan itself is no more taxing than flying to a lot of other destinations from Europe, so I think the issue must lie in the relatively quick turnaround. If the festivities only take place over a couple of days, there's not much recovery time for someone who is, after all, in her 70's. I understand Camilla choosing to opt out, but I am disappointed.
It is 6000 miles from London to Tokyo and takes over 13 hours. That is not insignificant and quite different from traveling to Europe. For example, London to Bucharest is a 3 hour flight.
There is also the 8 hour time change. I can see how someone who is a poor traveler to begin with, as well as being a bit older, would find the trip daunting.
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  #62  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
It is 6000 miles from London to Tokyo and takes over 13 hours. That is not insignificant and quite different from traveling to Europe. For example, London to Bucharest is a 3 hour flight.
There is also the 8 hour time change. I can see how someone who is a poor traveler to begin with, as well as being a bit older, would find the trip daunting.
I'm aware of the distance, I've flown to Japan, and understand that it can be taxing--but it's mostly the time change, not the trip itself. I think you may have misread my post, I didn't compare it to flying to Europe. I was trying to point out that Camilla has been on other long flights from Europe. I can see how that was unclear. Sorry for the confusion.
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  #63  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ista View Post
I'm aware of the distance, I've flown to Japan, and understand that it can be taxing--but it's mostly the time change, not the trip itself. I think you may have misread my post, I didn't compare it to flying to Europe. I was trying to point out that Camilla has been on other long flights from Europe. I can see how that was unclear. Sorry for the confusion.
Camilla has directly told reporters she has a fear of flying, so the stressful part for her would indeed be the trip itself. Evidently the royal helicopter had a near collision while she was riding in it last year (IIRC, there was inadequate/faulty communication with air traffic control resulting in the chopper having to quickly maneuver to avoid the path of other aircraft)...that can’t have helped her anxiety regarding air travel. Clearly she does sometimes push down those fears and fly, but it seems she’s set some limits on the frequency, number and/or timing of flights she’s willing to take.
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  #64  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by loonytick View Post
Camilla has directly told reporters she has a fear of flying, so the stressful part for her would indeed be the trip itself. Evidently the royal helicopter had a near collision while she was riding in it last year (IIRC, there was inadequate/faulty communication with air traffic control resulting in the chopper having to quickly maneuver to avoid the path of other aircraft)...that can’t have helped her anxiety regarding air travel. Clearly she does sometimes push down those fears and fly, but it seems she’s set some limits on the frequency, number and/or timing of flights she’s willing to take.
Thank you for the details, that sounds like a terrifying experience. I had forgotten that Camilla has an actual fear of flying, so 12 hours or more in an airplane twice within a 6 week period would be a lot to deal with. She has my sympathy.
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  #65  
Old 08-14-2019, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ista View Post
I'm happy to hear that. At least there will be some reigning kings and queens there.
Reigning monarchs do not customarily attend coronations. If the Spanish King and Queen turn up, I’d consider it a major breach of protocol.
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  #66  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:17 AM
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I'm not sure Japan minds reigning monarchs at the enthronement ceremony. Several reigning monarchs attended Emperor Akihito's enthronement in 1990. I admit some heirs/heiresses were too young... yet GD Jean and GD Josephine Charlotte attended instead of then-HGD Henri and HGD Maria Teresa. King Baudouin and Queen Fabiola attended instead of sending then-Prince Albert and Princess Paola. (King Baudouin and Queen Fabiola were close to Emperor Akihito and Empress Michiko so that could be why they attended.)
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  #67  
Old 08-14-2019, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Minister of Court View Post
Reigning monarchs do not customarily attend coronations. If the Spanish King and Queen turn up, I’d consider it a major breach of protocol.
In Europe it might be, but this is Japan. Clearly the Japanese court do not share in the superstition concerning reigning monarchs since there is precedent as Prisma noted. Based on that precedent, it would be more odd if there were not any reigning monarchs.
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  #68  
Old 08-14-2019, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
In May the Spanish site Vanitatis announced that King Felipe VI and Queen Letizia will be present at the enthronement on 22 October.
https://www.vanitatis.elconfidencial...uhito_1992138/
If they go, it will be a busy month for them, with the Princess of Asturias awards and National Day.
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  #69  
Old 08-14-2019, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Minister of Court View Post
Reigning monarchs do not customarily attend coronations. If the Spanish King and Queen turn up, I’d consider it a major breach of protocol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ista View Post
In Europe it might be, but this is Japan. Clearly the Japanese court do not share in the superstition concerning reigning monarchs since there is precedent as Prisma noted. Based on that precedent, it would be more odd if there were not any reigning monarchs.
In Europe this is done so that the new monarch isn’t outranked by more senior monarchs. However, Japan has an Emperor. He automatically outranks every other royal on the planet, so it’s irrelevant if a king or queen comes to his coronation.

At the last coronation there was a mix of Kings, Queens and Crown Princes, depending on age and closeness to the imperial couple. I expect the same will happen this time.

In 1990 we had:
King Baudoin and Queen Fabiola of Belgium, Queen Margrethe and Prince Henrik of Denmark, King Carl XVI Gustaf and Queen Silvia of Sweden, the King and Queen of Malaysia, the King of Bhutan, Grand Duke Jean and Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte of Luxembourg, Crown Prince Harald and Crown Princess Sonja of Norway, the Prince and Princess of Wales, Crown Prince Willem-Alexander of The Netherlands, Crown Prince Hussein and Crown Princess Sarvath of Jordan, and Crown Prince Felipe of Spain.
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  #70  
Old 08-14-2019, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess Larisa View Post
In Europe this is done so that the new monarch isn’t outranked by more senior monarchs. However, Japan has an Emperor. He automatically outranks every other royal on the planet, so it’s irrelevant if a king or queen comes to his coronation.

At the last coronation there was a mix of Kings, Queens and Crown Princes, depending on age and closeness to the imperial couple. I expect the same will happen this time.

In 1990 we had:
King Baudoin and Queen Fabiola of Belgium, Queen Margrethe and Prince Henrik of Denmark, King Carl XVI Gustaf and Queen Silvia of Sweden, the King and Queen of Malaysia, the King of Bhutan, Grand Duke Jean and Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte of Luxembourg, Crown Prince Harald and Crown Princess Sonja of Norway, the Prince and Princess of Wales, Crown Prince Willem-Alexander of The Netherlands, Crown Prince Hussein and Crown Princess Sarvath of Jordan, and Crown Prince Felipe of Spain.
Your post made a lot of sense. This superstition maybe doesn't work in Japan.

As for the non-reigning royal families? Has anybody from them showed up in the 1990 Enthronement ceremony?
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  #71  
Old 08-16-2019, 05:05 AM
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Margareta Thorgren, the director of the press department of the swedish royal court, said to Svensk Damtidning that it has not been decided yet, who represents Sweden at the enthronement ceremony on 22nd October.
https://www.svenskdam.se/kungligt/ho...ingen-i-japan/
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  #72  
Old 08-16-2019, 01:37 PM
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Hi. I am an occasional visitor who has an interest in history & culture.

I was intrigued to read the comment about the rank of the Emperor.

Although the title of Tenno was translated in the C19th as emperor the Tenno is not an emperor in the European sense with precedence over kings like the Holy Roman Emperor was in Europe.

During the C19th century there was a sort of title inflation starting with Napoleon calling himself Emperor of the French & indeed this continued into the C20th with the last King of Italy being accorded the title of Emperor of Ethiopia. This rush to imperial status was tied up with national pride & it was therefore considered diplomatic to translate the title of Tenno as emperor in the western sense & to accord the Japanese monarch a similar imperial status to the rulers of the European great powers like Russia, Germany, France & Austria.

In the present day we have a King of Bahrain but “only” a Grand Duke of Luxembourg. The title of Tenno could just have easily have been translated as king. Japan is not an empire.

If these monarchies had survived to the present day we would have an extra four emperors in the world – Vietnam, Korea, Iran & Ethiopia. Would they really outrank the Kings of Thailand or Saudi Arabia? Or indeed a King of Egypt if that monarchy had also survived.

It would be odd if the Napoleonic dynasty had survived to the present day & we had a French Emperor but “only” a British King. Would a French HIH really outrank a British HRH?

I think it very telling that at the funeral of King Baudouin the Queen of the United Kingdom (1952) was sat ahead of the Emperor of Japan (1989).

I don’ think that Queen Elizabeth II is more important than all the other monarchs because she reigns over countries that in total are larger than Russia or more populous & richer than Japan. I don’t think that she is more important because she is Head of the Commonwealth that contains a third of the world’s population. Clearly she was seated first because she had come to the throne earlier & was therefore not outranked by the Emperor of Japan. In exactly the same way, King Charles the Third of the United Kingdom will be outranked by all other monarchs at the start of his reign despite having numerous realms as well as the Commonwealth headship.

The titles of emperor, king etc have a long & complicated history in Europe. Add in Asian ideas of monarchy & it all gets very complicated making comparisons across such different cultures very difficult.

I hope I haven’t gone on too much!
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  #73  
Old 08-16-2019, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
Hi. I am an occasional visitor who has an interest in history & culture.

I was intrigued to read the comment about the rank of the Emperor.

Although the title of Tenno was translated in the C19th as emperor the Tenno is not an emperor in the European sense with precedence over kings like the Holy Roman Emperor was in Europe.

During the C19th century there was a sort of title inflation starting with Napoleon calling himself Emperor of the French & indeed this continued into the C20th with the last King of Italy being accorded the title of Emperor of Ethiopia. This rush to imperial status was tied up with national pride & it was therefore considered diplomatic to translate the title of Tenno as emperor in the western sense & to accord the Japanese monarch a similar imperial status to the rulers of the European great powers like Russia, Germany, France & Austria.

In the present day we have a King of Bahrain but “only” a Grand Duke of Luxembourg. The title of Tenno could just have easily have been translated as king. Japan is not an empire.

If these monarchies had survived to the present day we would have an extra four emperors in the world – Vietnam, Korea, Iran & Ethiopia. Would they really outrank the Kings of Thailand or Saudi Arabia? Or indeed a King of Egypt if that monarchy had also survived.

It would be odd if the Napoleonic dynasty had survived to the present day & we had a French Emperor but “only” a British King. Would a French HIH really outrank a British HRH?

I think it very telling that at the funeral of King Baudouin the Queen of the United Kingdom (1952) was sat ahead of the Emperor of Japan (1989).

I don’ think that Queen Elizabeth II is more important than all the other monarchs because she reigns over countries that in total are larger than Russia or more populous & richer than Japan. I don’t think that she is more important because she is Head of the Commonwealth that contains a third of the world’s population. Clearly she was seated first because she had come to the throne earlier & was therefore not outranked by the Emperor of Japan. In exactly the same way, King Charles the Third of the United Kingdom will be outranked by all other monarchs at the start of his reign despite having numerous realms as well as the Commonwealth headship.

The titles of emperor, king etc have a long & complicated history in Europe. Add in Asian ideas of monarchy & it all gets very complicated making comparisons across such different cultures very difficult.

I hope I haven’t gone on too much!
The title of Emperor is traditionally associated with the monarch of a multinational state , i.e. a monarch who rules over several countries , or several subnational monarchies ( principalities, duchies, kingdoms, etc.). But it has been used also by monarchs of a single, large ( continental) unitary state, e.g. the Emperor of Brazil.

Japan, in my opinion, doesn’t meet any of the two aforementioned criteria , so I don’t think the designation of Emperor for the Japanese monarch is quite appropriate ( other than the fact that Japan has a large population). In any case, the fact that Japanese emperors use the style of Majesty only, rather than Imperial Majesty, suggests to me that they don’t outrank a European King or Queen.
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  #74  
Old 08-16-2019, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
Hi. I am an occasional visitor who has an interest in history & culture.

I was intrigued to read the comment about the rank of the Emperor.

Although the title of Tenno was translated in the C19th as emperor the Tenno is not an emperor in the European sense with precedence over kings like the Holy Roman Emperor was in Europe.

During the C19th century there was a sort of title inflation starting with Napoleon calling himself Emperor of the French & indeed this continued into the C20th with the last King of Italy being accorded the title of Emperor of Ethiopia. This rush to imperial status was tied up with national pride & it was therefore considered diplomatic to translate the title of Tenno as emperor in the western sense & to accord the Japanese monarch a similar imperial status to the rulers of the European great powers like Russia, Germany, France & Austria.

In the present day we have a King of Bahrain but “only” a Grand Duke of Luxembourg. The title of Tenno could just have easily have been translated as king. Japan is not an empire.

If these monarchies had survived to the present day we would have an extra four emperors in the world – Vietnam, Korea, Iran & Ethiopia. Would they really outrank the Kings of Thailand or Saudi Arabia? Or indeed a King of Egypt if that monarchy had also survived.

It would be odd if the Napoleonic dynasty had survived to the present day & we had a French Emperor but “only” a British King. Would a French HIH really outrank a British HRH?

I think it very telling that at the funeral of King Baudouin the Queen of the United Kingdom (1952) was sat ahead of the Emperor of Japan (1989).

I don’ think that Queen Elizabeth II is more important than all the other monarchs because she reigns over countries that in total are larger than Russia or more populous & richer than Japan. I don’t think that she is more important because she is Head of the Commonwealth that contains a third of the world’s population. Clearly she was seated first because she had come to the throne earlier & was therefore not outranked by the Emperor of Japan. In exactly the same way, King Charles the Third of the United Kingdom will be outranked by all other monarchs at the start of his reign despite having numerous realms as well as the Commonwealth headship.

The titles of emperor, king etc have a long & complicated history in Europe. Add in Asian ideas of monarchy & it all gets very complicated making comparisons across such different cultures very difficult.

I hope I haven’t gone on too much!
You totally missed the point. It's not important how you can or want to translate Tenno, It's important how monarchs do it. ALL European monarchs recognize Japanese rulers as Emperors. Simple.
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  #75  
Old 08-16-2019, 02:16 PM
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Yes, I absolutely agree with that.

Maybe referring to the Tenno of Japan in the same way that we had the Shah of Iran would make more sense.

That way we avoid trying to match up Asian & western ideas of titles.
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  #76  
Old 08-16-2019, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The title of Emperor is traditionally associated with the monarch of a multinational state , i.e. a monarch who rules over several countries , or several subnational monarchies ( principalities, duchies, kingdoms, etc.). But it has been used also by monarchs of a single, large ( continental) unitary state, e.g. the Emperor of Brazil.
perhaps you've never heard of the Trapezuntine Empire
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  #77  
Old 08-16-2019, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Durham View Post
I was intrigued to read the comment about the rank of the Emperor.

Although the title of Tenno was translated in the C19th as emperor the Tenno is not an emperor in the European sense with precedence over kings like the Holy Roman Emperor was in Europe.

During the C19th century there was a sort of title inflation starting with Napoleon calling himself Emperor of the French & indeed this continued into the C20th with the last King of Italy being accorded the title of Emperor of Ethiopia. This rush to imperial status was tied up with national pride & it was therefore considered diplomatic to translate the title of Tenno as emperor in the western sense & to accord the Japanese monarch a similar imperial status to the rulers of the European great powers like Russia, Germany, France & Austria.

[...]

The titles of emperor, king etc have a long & complicated history in Europe. Add in Asian ideas of monarchy & it all gets very complicated making comparisons across such different cultures very difficult.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The title of Emperor is traditionally associated with the monarch of a multinational state , i.e. a monarch who rules over several countries , or several subnational monarchies ( principalities, duchies, kingdoms, etc.). But it has been used also by monarchs of a single, large ( continental) unitary state, e.g. the Emperor of Brazil.

Japan, in my opinion, doesn’t fit any of the two aforementioned criteria , so I don’t think the designation of Emperor for the Japanese monarch is quite appropriate ( other than the fact that Japan has a large population). In any case, the fact that Japanese emperors use the style of Majesty only, rather than Imperial Majesty, suggests to me that they don’t outrank a European King or Queen.
I remember hearing somewhere that in the wake of World War Two, the antiwar movement in Japan lobbied to amend the translation of Tenno from Emperor to King exactly because of the complicated history of the Western term Emperor and its sense of rule over a multinational (colonial) empire. Does anyone have more information relating to this?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
You totally missed the point. It's not important how you can or want to translate Tenno, It's important how monarchs do it. ALL European monarchs recognize Japanese rulers as Emperors. Simple.
On the contrary, that was the point of Durham's informative post.
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  #78  
Old 08-16-2019, 02:39 PM
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Spheno,

Thank's for that - always love to learn new things about history!

As to your earlier comment. I understand fully that Tenno is accepted as emperor by the European courts. My point was that the Emperor of Japan does not have a higher ranking than other monarchs despite that acceptance.

As I said please refer to the seating arrangements at the funeral of King Baudouin.
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  #79  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:45 PM
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[QUOTE=Tatiana Maria;2246523]I remember hearing somewhere that in the wake of World War Two, the antiwar movement in Japan lobbied to amend the translation of Tenno from Emperor to King exactly because of the complicated history of the Western term Emperor and its sense of rule over a multinational (colonial) empire. Does anyone have more information relating to this?


That does sounds very plausible considering the cruel record of the Japanese Empire although I don't have any further information about it.

Thank you for your pm - I would have replied but I don't have that facility as a newbie.
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  #80  
Old 08-18-2019, 08:24 AM
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From Denmark who will go to the coronation? Is it Frederik and Mary?
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