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  #41  
Old 03-12-2006, 12:05 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
It's possible. I believe that the ordinary Germans were told that the Jews were in Labour camps or were being sent away to be transported to other countries. Very few people knew about them being killed - and those who lived nearby either worked in the camps or were moved out and troops moved in.
In the beggining this was perhaps the case in many areas. but as time went by many, many more knew (but ofcourse they couldnt do anything about it). ordinary germans may not have always known about the murders initially but they knew of the abuse. it was all around and impossible to miss it.
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  #42  
Old 03-12-2006, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by oskana
In the beggining this was perhaps the case in many areas. but as time went by many, many more knew (but ofcourse they couldnt do anything about it). ordinary germans may not have always known about the murders initially but they knew of the abuse. it was all around and impossible to miss it.
That's a very valuable point you bring up. I asked a lot of germany who had lived then why they calim they didn't realize what was going on when it went more public with time.

It seems the Nazis were very good on playing the "we are we" and "They are not like us"-card. They managed to install a feeling that the jews did not belong and that it was right to install apartheit measures in Germany. They played on the lower emotions of the people and installed a feeling of righteousness and superiority (which is something that Germans tend to as part of their national character, I have to say).

And they installed a system of terror towards the people. They installed a system of control under the citizens, encouraged the telling of tales, punished heavily if someone did not behave as they wanted and worked with terror, fear and the feeling of helplessness. So even if you found out about these crimes, you were to afraid to tell anybody because you had to face sharing the fate of those unhappy people. So you kept quiet and stayed in line.

A lot of people, especially in the US, believe that the Germans were all guilty and hard-hearted when they didn't seem to react to the truth that was shown to them. But now that more than 60 years are gone by, it seems that they were just too shocked in the beginning. We have had our debate about the guilt and as one result we did not join in the war against terror because we don't ever want to see German soldiers be actively engaged in a war not forced upon us and on our own soil as a defense war.
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  #43  
Old 03-12-2006, 09:48 AM
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Anti-Semitism was, and still is, a feeling in many parts of Europe. I was in Poland and Russia in 2002 and the local guide our tour had kept referring to Poles and Jews, Russians and Jews, Germans and Jews. When I asked why they did this - rather than refer to them all by the same nationality in each country - I received a reply such as - they're Jews they aren't really one of us. I found that extraordinary that after the holocaust those attitudes still existed. The guides were surprised that I would even consider a Jew to be able to be a German/Pole or Russian.

Hitler was able to 'solve' the economic crisis of Germany whereas the leaders in other countries couldn't do so and so he was admired in the early to mid-30s.

It is easy in hindsight to play the blame game but it is different when you are living it. Just look at how many people, in various countries, believed in WMDs and the reason for the Iraq War. Even in countries with freedom of the press many people felt that it was a just war when it began and there are still quite a few people in those countries that still do. It would have been so much easier in the 1930s with limited newsreels, no internet and state control of information to really limit what people knew.
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  #44  
Old 03-12-2006, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by chrissy57
Anti-Semitism was, and still is, a feeling in many parts of Europe. I was in Poland and Russia in 2002 and the local guide our tour had kept referring to Poles and Jews, Russians and Jews, Germans and Jews. When I asked why they did this - rather than refer to them all by the same nationality in each country - I received a reply such as - they're Jews they aren't really one of us. I found that extraordinary that after the holocaust those attitudes still existed. The guides were surprised that I would even consider a Jew to be able to be a German/Pole or Russian.
That is really really sad.
Imo racism is the most meaningless prejudice in the world.
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  #45  
Old 03-12-2006, 12:04 PM
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It isn't racism, it's anti-semitism which isn't the same thing. The simple fact is that people will always dislike someone else. Whether it's the poor hating the rich, the Scottish hating the English, the blacks hating the whites, the muslims hating the jews, the communists hating the capitalists or the monarchists hating the republicans - hate will always be there for another group. Now what you decide as a human being to do about that hate is very much dependant on your morality.

Adolf Hitler hated the jews because he saw them as having everything whilse Aryan Germans had nothing. It's the same as the bolsheviks hating the Romanovs. Now what happens is you can say, 'Well, that's life' and get on with it. Or you can say in private, "I hate those people" but do nothing in public. Or you can do what both parties did and say, "We hate those people and we are determined to get rid of them".

Everyone wants to see progress in any regime. Hitler showed the German people falling unemployment rates - he promised work and bread and he delivered it. Now that meant in part, taking it away from jews and giving it to Aryan Germans - but what people saw was progress. They saw progress and so they kept supporting National Socialism because it provided the answers to their problems.

Alot of Germans were also bitter about their defeat in the First World War. If you see Albert Speer's plans for Germany after the War, they are truly amazing. If Hitler had have won the war (which he could easily have done), Berlin would have been the most amazing city in the world as we know it. It would spur anyone on - from the lap dog to the master.

It is very easy to now say, "I wouldn't have agreed, I would have protested" but the truth is - you wouldn't. 1) You wouldn't see a problem and 2) You wouldn't be allowed to and I hope that this book will show those things as a possible explanation as to why so many Royals supported Hitler.
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  #46  
Old 03-12-2006, 12:27 PM
Aristocracy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
It isn't racism, it's anti-semitism which isn't the same thing.
I am not sure if they are different.

I agree with what you've said. It was situational together with Hilter's gift of manipulation. And you are spot on about people will always dislike another group of people, to me its part of human nature and does not happen exclusively to a particular race or nationality.

I like your posts, you are honest without being irrational. :)
I am an ethic minority living in the UK, and when I hear about xenophobic or racist ideas, its always weird and illogical excuses which people come up with. It is very rare that someone can actually talk about these things so openly without calling people names, shouting abuse and being angry.
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  #47  
Old 03-12-2006, 12:34 PM
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Well this is a post for another topic, but that's the problem IMO. You say that you're an ethnic minority living in the UK. You don't say that you're British. And that is where alot of hatred begins. In my view, the old phrase, "When in Rome" applies always. For example, if I moved to Denmark, I would learn Danish, I would take Danish citizenship, I would try to fit in and I would describe myself as Danish.

But if you make yourself a minority, you are seen as a minority and then racism is almost encouraged because you create, albeit unintentionally, a divide. You say, "We are this and you are that" rather than saying, "We live here and I am British" or Danish, or Dutch or whatever it might be. And that's what happened in Germany - the Jews seperated from the main population and instead of saying, "We are German" said, "We are Jews" and so the rift is already open.

Then you get people, like Hitler, who play on that and because people see that divide, it makes sense. They follow and you end up with genocide and war - we see it in Russia, in Nazi Germany and in Serbia. The problem for Royalty comes when they are supposed to represent the people. If the people are 100% behind Nazism, should (for example) the Queen don a swastika armband, a party badge and make speeches against Jews? Surely she'd only be representing her people and how they think?

(I'm glad you like my posts - I don't mean offence by anything I write but I try to tell it as I see it).
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  #48  
Old 03-12-2006, 12:48 PM
Aristocracy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Well this is a post for another topic, but that's the problem IMO. You say that you're an ethnic minority living in the UK. You don't say that you're British. And that is where alot of hatred begins. In my view, the old phrase, "When in Rome" applies always. For example, if I moved to Denmark, I would learn Danish, I would take Danish citizenship, I would try to fit in and I would describe myself as Danish.

But if you make yourself a minority, you are seen as a minority and then racism is almost encouraged because you create, albeit unintentionally, a divide. You say, "We are this and you are that" rather than saying, "We live here and I am British" or Danish, or Dutch or whatever it might be. And that's what happened in Germany - the Jews seperated from the main population and instead of saying, "We are German" said, "We are Jews" and so the rift is already open.
I am British and I am not afraid to say it. But what I find is that people start asking me "where are you from" just because I am not white. And they are not asking whether I am from London, or Manchester or whatever, but what they are really asking is - my ethinicity. So some British caucasians do make the distinction pretty much automatically, before I can even open my mouth!

I can totally see the problem you are describing, but I think its not just white or the people who are not white that needs to change their approach - both need to change.
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  #49  
Old 03-12-2006, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
It isn't racism, it's anti-semitism which isn't the same thing. Adolf Hitler hated the jews because he saw them as having everything whilse Aryan Germans had nothing. It's the same as the bolsheviks hating the Romanovs.
A friend was telling me that her mother was punished for dating a non jewish boy before the nazi's took over, so anti whatever happens on both sides it would seem.
Quote:
I hope that this book will show those things as a possible explanation as to why so many Royals supported Hitler.
Lets hope so but, there will always be those willing to read more into what they did or didn't do!
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  #50  
Old 03-12-2006, 02:21 PM
Aristocracy
 
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
For example, if I moved to Denmark, I would learn Danish, I would take Danish citizenship, I would try to fit in and I would describe myself as Danish.
Hope you don't mind me asking :), but if you move to China, Japan, India, Congo... would you describe yourself Chinese, Japanese, Indian and African?

I think its not as hard for a person to move to another country similar to the one that is associated with their background or ethinicity compared to say a caucasian who moved to Japan to call themselves Japanese/Chinese/Indian etc.
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  #51  
Old 03-12-2006, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melissajames
I am British and I am not afraid to say it. But what I find is that people start asking me "where are you from" just because I am not white. And they are not asking whether I am from London, or Manchester or whatever, but what they are really asking is - my ethinicity. So some British caucasians do make the distinction pretty much automatically, before I can even open my mouth!

I can totally see the problem you are describing, but I think its not just white or the people who are not white that needs to change their approach - both need to change.
agreed exactly. and led me just add that there is a difference between ethnicity and nationality. as human nature we automatically see differences wether we like it or not. its easy to call yourself an ethnic minority bec well thats what u are and thats what others see u as like it or not. if that wasnt the case we would not have terms like hispanic/latin american, african american, and chinese american. we would otherwise all be plain American. so yes both side needs to change their approach.
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  #52  
Old 03-12-2006, 02:47 PM
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if you move to China, Japan, India, Congo... would you describe yourself Chinese, Japanese, Indian and African?
I would try to fit in as best I could. What I wouldn't do, which is what alot of immigrants to Britain do, is to say, "I'm an Indian living in Britain and I want Indian shops and Indian schools etc etc". If you want that, go to India. This is Britain where we have British shops, British schools etc. But you have to have a firm Government saying that and unfortunately, we don't have that.

Quote:
its easy to call yourself an ethnic minority bec well thats what u are and thats what others see u as like it or not.
I think you miss my point. IMO, there isn't a need to call yourself a black American or a black Briton. In my mind you are British or you are American or you are Danish etc etc. To use terms like British Jew, British Muslim etc, you create divides that needn't be there and then criticise when you're treated differently for being from a minority. The key is for the minority to fit in with the majority and for the majority to make that easier for the minority to do.
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  #53  
Old 03-12-2006, 03:12 PM
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I would try to fit in as best I could. What I wouldn't do, which is what alot of immigrants to Britain do, is to say, "I'm an Indian living in Britain and I want Indian shops and Indian schools etc etc". If you want that, go to India. This is Britain where we have British shops, British schools etc. But you have to have a firm Government saying that and unfortunately, we don't have that.
I agree with the idea. I think its not only important from the integration point of view, but I think people might enjoy the experience and find it much more interesting if they make more effort to adapt to the customs and the way of life to the country which they have moved to.

Quote:
The key is for the minority to fit in with the majority and for the majority to make that easier for the minority to do.
That's a valid point, its a two way street. Minority need to make real effort to integrate into society but the majority also need to provide opportunities and support for them to do this.
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  #54  
Old 03-12-2006, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I would try to fit in as best I could. What I wouldn't do, which is what alot of immigrants to Britain do, is to say, "I'm an Indian living in Britain and I want Indian shops and Indian schools etc etc". If you want that, go to India. This is Britain where we have British shops, British schools etc. But you have to have a firm Government saying that and unfortunately, we don't have that.


I think you miss my point. IMO, there isn't a need to call yourself a black American or a black Briton. In my mind you are British or you are American or you are Danish etc etc. To use terms like British Jew, British Muslim etc, you create divides that needn't be there and then criticise when you're treated differently for being from a minority. The key is for the minority to fit in with the majority and for the majority to make that easier for the minority to do.
thanks for clearing that up but u may have missed my point as well. your right there isnt a "need" to call yourself a black briton or british jew and so forth. but i think u are not realizing that although u may not use that term many many others do. and u seemed to be puting the blame on one side rather than realizing that its both sides that has to change their approach. as i stated its human nature to point out each others differences wether we like it or not. we still live in a racially/ethinc conscious world, like it or not. many minorities are part of the american culture. they do not go out of their way to divide themselves in fact just the opposite. for example i dont "need" to label myself a chinese american but others will do it for me easily. i fit in to american society just fine but i will still be labeld a chinese american. why is it that in college when i took certain exams there are boxes such as white/caucasian, asian, african american and so forth, and i have to check one. i didnt create that box did I. no, the govt and school offcials responsible created these boxes. it would be nice if all i had to do is check american.
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  #55  
Old 03-12-2006, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by oskana
for example i dont "need" to label myself a chinese american but others will do it for me easily. i fit in to american society just fine but i will still be labeld a chinese american. why is it that in college when i took certain exams there are boxes such as white/caucasian, asian, african american and so forth, and i have to check one. i didnt create that box did I. no, the govt and school offcials responsible created these boxes. it would be nice if all i had to do is check american.
I have to admit that I am puzzled as to why governments do that however, do you not feel a certain amount of pride when saying you are a Chinese American? A lot of people only 'notice' the differences when it is rammed down their throats and I would hope that you are seen as you, regardless of where you come from. :) As with everyone, it is up to us whether we are seen as nice or nasty and that is what most people remember after a meeting, the impression you have left. As you said there are faults from both sides.:)

In any major city, with the amount of tourists, It shouldn't be seen as offensive to ask where you are from, it could be London, New York or anywhere in the world!

I would also add that IMO, as was said earlier, by the time anyone realised (including the majority of British MP's) what the Nazi's were doing, for the Royals and for a lot of people, it was already too late to stop anything.
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  #56  
Old 03-12-2006, 04:39 PM
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Ahem, we seem to be going off-topic here.

As intrigueing as it is to read the current discussion, it is rather off-topic. Is it possible to return to discussion of the book before mass-deletion of off-topic posts have to be done?

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  #57  
Old 03-12-2006, 07:44 PM
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So Jennifer, when do you expect to receive the book you found on Amazon in regards to the Princess von Hesses, and their ties to the Third Reich?
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  #58  
Old 03-12-2006, 08:40 PM
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I ordered from Amazon. I don't know when I'll receive the book since my order totaled over $25.00 and I took advantage of the free shipping.

Anyhoo...Hitler brainwashed Germany since he is legend as being a suave and charismatic speaker. Germany was a different Germany since its economic situation had improved under his motivating chatter and regime. He appealed to people and told them what they wanted to hear and therefore brainwashed them. He knew how to sell himself to the masses. Its not surprising that some royals got caught up in the mess. He rallied Germany against the Jews with more or less we have to blame someone for our rotten luck in life. Hitler used propaganda like no one has ever before.
It was a little too late when most realized what they had on their hands and there was no going back since they would be considered enemies of the state and face extermination.
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  #59  
Old 03-13-2006, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kerry
I ordered from Amazon. I don't know when I'll receive the book since my order totaled over $25.00 and I took advantage of the free shipping.

Anyhoo...Hitler brainwashed Germany since he is legend as being a suave and charismatic speaker. Germany was a different Germany since its economic situation had improved under his motivating chatter and regime. He appealed to people and told them what they wanted to hear and therefore brainwashed them. He knew how to sell himself to the masses. Its not surprising that some royals got caught up in the mess. He rallied Germany against the Jews with more or less we have to blame someone for our rotten luck in life. Hitler used propaganda like no one has ever before.
It was a little too late when most realized what they had on their hands and there was no going back since they would be considered enemies of the state and face extermination.
Hem,When your country is calling you,whoeverer you are.... a King a Prince or a Peasant you go!!Unquestionably!You do your best in peace or war!If you don't you are a trator!
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  #60  
Old 03-13-2006, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ChevalieurduCiel
Hem,When your country is calling you,whoeverer you are.... a King a Prince or a Peasant you go!!Unquestionably!You do your best in peace or war!If you don't you are a trator!
True. A traitor that will face the same fate as those who where being exterminated.
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