It is possible Albert would have been able to guide Vickie in her struggles with the Prussian court, but I think Bismark would still have been a strong factor in seeing that a liberal Prussia/Germany did not come to pass. I think it more hinges on the fact that Fritz's father lived far too long!
Cat
Its hard to imagine Vicky as Georgie's mother. Based on her statement that she was considered a German in London and too English in Berlin, I got the sense that Vicky had a hard time fitting in anywhere. If she had been Georgie's mother, I imagine there would have been something about the society that she lived in that she didn't just fit into and that would have carried over to her relationships with her children. I suspect she had a genius IQ in a time where even male geniuses had a hard time much less female geniuses.
I can't really agree with this, Ysabel. I think that she was regarded as a German in London because public opinion turned against the Germans because of the three wars, especially the one against the French.
The German culture was extremely different from the English and I think the Germans found Vicky very assertive compared with German women. She didn't endear herself to them by constantly implying that English ways were superier, it must be admitted!
I think that if she'd married a more liberal-minded and dominating English lord or duke, she might have been perfectly happy.
Best Regards,
Attaining Grace
bookaddiction
Since both Victoria and Albert were essentially German, I think their hearts were in the right place. They evidently knew, or believed, the German states would eventually have to be united and would have preferred the unification to happen peacefully and become more of a constitutional monarchy like England. It is rather sad that they assigned this task to Vicky, who turned out to be woefully unsuited, and that Albert did not live long enough to assist her in making his dream a reality.
There were several factors that conspired against them, and Vicky and Fritz. I don't think they counted on Bismark and his unification of Germany by sheer brute force. Nor was Vicky's ingrained "Englishness" considered. Vicky was either unable or unwilling to blend into the existing Prussian Court before she let her liberal views be known. She lacked the common sense and diplomatic skills necessary for the task her parents laid upon her.
Willy's personality was also another factor no one could have foreseen. None of these men, especially Willy and Nicky, were raised to fully appreciate and understand the roles they would eventually assume. Had Willy been shown more tolerance by his English grandmother and uncle, even his cousin George, the whole thing might have turned out quite differently. If Willy had been able to select his friends and advisers better it also would have helped.
Then again, had Nicky's grandfather not been assassinated, Russia might have been more liberal. Sadly Sacha reacted very badly to his father's death. He and Alix both failed in preparing Nicky to be Tsar, just as Vicky and Fritz failed with Willy.
Its hard to imagine Vicky as Georgie's mother. Based on her statement that she was considered a German in London and too English in Berlin, I got the sense that Vicky had a hard time fitting in anywhere. If she had been Georgie's mother, I imagine there would have been something about the society that she lived in that she didn't just fit into and that would have carried over to her relationships with her children. I suspect she had a genius IQ in a time where even male geniuses had a hard time much less female geniuses.
I can't really agree with this, Ysabel. I think that she was regarded as a German in London because public opinion turned against the Germans because of the three wars, especially the one against the French.
The German culture was extremely different from the English and I think the Germans found Vicky very assertive compared with German women. She didn't endear herself to them by constantly implying that English ways were superier, it must be admitted!
I think that if she'd married a more liberal-minded and dominating English lord or duke, she might have been perfectly happy.
Best Regards,
Attaining Grace
bookaddiction
Maybe she would have been guided down the right path (whatever that might have been) had Albert lived longer. I just don't understand how she under the advisement and counsel of her grandmother (along with her husband) were trying to mold the empire into Victoria's "English" Prussia. That was the goal when it all boils down to it. Am I the only one to see the absurdity in this? Did she not fear her life? The court was bent on absolutism. I understand that the times were changing but to be that close in proximity Bismark and taking him on in what seemed like a war against the world! Reading this book I was afraid of what he was capable. I am very surprised that Vicky lived to be Kaiserin no matter how brief the period was.
Vicky as regent of Russia.... now that is an interesting idea, and one that never occurred to me. Thanks, ysbel. I may have to kick that around in my head a bit.
Cat
As much as I would love to be able to rewrite history or even ask these guys "What were you thinking?", sadly that is not possible. As much fun as I have speculating about what might have been, what is, well, is. Both Russia and Germany suffered due to incompetent leaders. Okay, so Bismark wasn't incompetent, he was just shortsighted. (And yes I consider him to have been the real leader of Prussia, and later Germany, during Willy's grandfather's reign).
Cat
Yes quite an interesting concept, Cat; I admit I hadnt' thought of it either until attaininggrace mentioned who else Vicky could have married.
However, its possible that Vicky could have been a great Dowager Empress. She seems to be such a contradiction, ideals such as freedom and democracy bundled up in a woman who is rather pigheaded and doesn't seem to listen to people who disagree with her. It seems her personality seems to fit better with an absolutist outlook. If Vicky and Fritz had had absolutist tendencies, they would have been a true force to contend with in Germany. In many ways Vicky seems like the female Sasha only with much greater intelligence but Sasha kept his feelings to himself and no one would expect an absolutist czar to listen or respect others. One doesn't expect a liberal minded and democratically leaning princess to be pigheaded and obstinate.
However, I believe Russia may have been more used to the iron rule so its possible that a hardheaded Empress Dowager Vicky could have forced Russia into democracy much like a latter day Peter the Great. Now if Nixa had lived to be czar, with his education and charm and Vicky's iron will, I think its very well possible that they would have been a true force for democracy in Russia. I though suspect though that Nixa would have had his work cut out for him smoothing off Vicky's rather rough edges.
The chat room for the book isn't open till the end of the month, Kerry. But you can "see" everyone here until then!
Questions:
- Had political intrigue and tensions not surrounded him (Willy) between the Crown Prince and Vicky, do you believe Willy would have been an excellent ruler in Germany or another country like England?
- Had he not been surrounded himself with anti-England officials do you believe Willy may have been more receptive towards England? If so, why?
4. By the end of this section of the book, Nicky and Willy are both rulers but Georgie isn't. Do you think this makes the treatment of the three cousins in these chapters unbalanced?
5. The three cousins are now all married. Does the influence of their wives make any difference to them compared with the influence of their mothers?
6. If the circumstances in Russia were different, hence had a better mentor such as Alexander II, do you believe Nicky may have turned out to be a better Tsar and implemented some reforms in Russia?
7. Better yet, if Alexander III didn't react to the assassination of his father by ruling Russia as a despot thus Russia became an intolerable place to live and because of that the ever increasing rise of underground revolutionary activities, do you believe Nicky would have been more prepared... more inspired for change? Moreover, how could the Imperial Court remained so incredibly oblivious to the stirrings of revolution? Why was Nicky so blind to the obvious?
8. Autocratic rule. Is that the only way Russia can function? Could anyone have been strong enough to rule Russia?
I think things are getting more interesting in this part of the book, now that Nicky is also a ruler and there are wives in the mix as well as mothers. It's interesting how the choice of wives seems to have reflected the type of rulers they were: May was essentially a peacemaker and a soothing influence whereas Dona and Alicky were very much more interested in shoring up their husbands' autocratic instincts.
One minor quibble is that I wish they'd referred to Nicky's wife as Alicky. For those of us more familiar with the British royals, Alix is Queen Alexandra. Since she was Georgie's Motherdear and quite influential in this part of the book, I was getting confused with the two Alix's.
Though Alix may have held more sway with her husband than Mary or Dona with their respective spouses, she failed to use it in any beneficial way. Both she and Nicky firmly believed in autocratic rule, and she reminded him of that quite frequently it seems. (Oops. I think I'm getting a bit ahead.)
That Dona agreed with everything Wily aid and pandered to him didn't make for much of a reality check, something Willy badly needed. Accepting Bismark's resignation was his biggest mistake, though Bismark had made a bigger mistake in seeing that the Kaiser had so much constiitutional power.. It worked while Willy's grandfather was n charge but not with a loose cannon like Willy.
I can't quite put my finger on why it was Willy loved the military so much. Perhaps he was ADHD, as we discussed earlier, and the routine and structure of the military calmed him. It could be because Prussia had always been known for its formidable army and he felt great pride in that. It might even have been due to his father being a great "war hero". The author doesn't really give enough information for me to come to a valid conclusion.