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  #141  
Old 04-11-2013, 04:29 PM
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Well, obviously Felipe tried to trick his parents by covering up the alledged abortion, its something I call deception.
And obviously living 'modern' values pre-marriage while making a 180 degree turn because it comes with the ring is something I call hypocracy.

There is a reason that the Spanish public never warmed to Letizia too much and that she caused polemic from the beginning, pretending perfection and not allowing any discussion about her past, what is normally done during a courtship. The unusual rush of events caused suspicion that has been the basis for the rumour/gossip mill over the years until these days where there seems to be no barrier left.
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  #142  
Old 04-11-2013, 05:34 PM
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Well, obviously Felipe tried to trick his parents by covering up the alledged abortion, its something I call deception.
And obviously living 'modern' values pre-marriage while making a 180 degree turn because it comes with the ring is something I call hypocracy.

There is a reason that the Spanish public never warmed to Letizia too much and that she caused polemic from the beginning, pretending perfection and not allowing any discussion about her past, what is normally done during a courtship. The unusual rush of events caused suspicion that has been the basis for the rumour/gossip mill over the years until these days where there seems to be no barrier left.
Not sure why he would feel the need to inform his parents if she had had an abortion. It really isn't any of their business and it did not violate Spanish laws, but do we know for a fact that they did not know?

I don't understand you comments about living "modern values" before her 2004 marriage and making a 180 degree change. Has she portrayed herself as some sort of ultra Catholic Opus Dei type? Other than a Catholic wedding and attending Easter services with the family has she made a great display of her faith? Where is the hypocracy? Besides isn't the Catholic Church supposed to all about Christian charity and forgiveness, confess your sins, say a few Hail Marys and then be absolved of your sins and move on with your life?

In what way did she ever presented herself as being perfect? She seems to have gone about her royal role in a rather professional manner but I doubt she has ever claimed to be perfect at anything.

I was under the impression that Letizia was a rather popular figure, at least as far as any member of the SRf was ever popular in the last decade. I know there were some old school types that never got over Felipe not marrying a princess or at least a Spanish aristocrat but surely they are a minority still living in a world that has passed them by.
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  #143  
Old 04-11-2013, 05:43 PM
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Well, obviously Felipe tried to trick his parents by covering up the alledged abortion, its something I call deception.
And obviously living 'modern' values pre-marriage while making a 180 degree turn because it comes with the ring is something I call hypocracy.

There is a reason that the Spanish public never warmed to Letizia too much and that she caused polemic from the beginning, pretending perfection and not allowing any discussion about her past, what is normally done during a courtship. The unusual rush of events caused suspicion that has been the basis for the rumour/gossip mill over the years until these days where there seems to be no barrier left.

What evidence is there that JC did not know about it? I don't see that its obvious at all.

Was she pretending perfection or is that what people projected onto her at the time? Do we want royals who reflect society; or reflect perfection (we'll have wait a long time for one of those). This is the paradox that makes royal life unmanageable and unliveable IMO.

Posters on here are so judgemental when actually you know very little, bearing in mind the source of information in from the media (not happy that one of their own kept a secret romance from them); and who twist the story acording to the "Climate" at the time.
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  #144  
Old 04-11-2013, 05:57 PM
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All the goody two shoes are passing judgement. Only God can pass judgement and he is merciful.
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  #145  
Old 04-11-2013, 06:08 PM
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Perfect ... professional ... controlled ... my impression. I would pretty much see these adjectives as description for the same behaviour towards the public. Absolutely positive. However, every now and then a bit of emotion or imperfection makes one more human. That's a bit what I miss with her.

Back to the book. If - and that is a huge IF - there is indeed some truth in it, I wonder what the best strategy might be. Simply not commenting or finally an I-am-so-sorry-coming-out ā la MM.
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  #146  
Old 04-11-2013, 06:18 PM
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Keep quiet and carry on.

From what I have read on the forum, she had done the job of a CP very well - happily married; two children; worthwhile causes - generally good work. Perhaps a little aloof, but that might just be her.

She should carry on as she has always done. This book is not worthy of her notice. That is the line to take. She should be judged on her work as CP, not on the gossip of a possible greedy and irrational cousin.
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  #147  
Old 04-11-2013, 09:21 PM
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Keep quiet and carry on.
Cepe, that's surely a good way to deal with such a situation. My concern is only, what happens if one or more major allegations turn out to be true. In such a case I am not certain, if remorse and an apology wouldn't be better. Just thinking of our former federal president Wulff who managed to stumble over his error in judgement on how to deal with certain revelations which turned into an incredibly huge media response. He had resign in the end. However, today of all the allegations just a tiny bit is still pursued by public prosecution. A tempest in teapot. It makes you ponder what had happened, had he dealt differently with the situation. From this experience I simply conclude that trying to buy time by not admitting your faults might not always be the best way. It all depends of course on the media echo. If Spanish magazines and newspapers ignore the book, she might be right to keep quiet and carry on.
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  #148  
Old 04-12-2013, 12:01 AM
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I certainly do not believe 100% David Rocasolano has to say but I believe that this whole L&F/SRF story contains a lot of hyprocracy & fakeness, contrary to the story that was sold to the public.

The public will always forgive any shortcomings when it comes along with honesty and authenticiy, but it's hard to forgive deception in order to make somebody look perfect and flawless. If you don't agree with something, then why not stand up for it, including your possibly controversial choice of wife, instead of faking consent with the conservative & catholic values, fooling the public. And now its all coming back, exploding right into the SRF's faces.

Looking behind the scenes of the SRF has been a traumatic experience for the Spanish public, which now includes every single adult member, maybe apart from Queen Sofia.
A traumatic experience for the Spanish public because Letizia might have an abortion ? Too exaggerated perhaps. 80% of Spaniards are social Catholics. Do they really care (except some ultra conservative ones) if Letizia had an abortion or not ?
Since when the SRF had made Letizia look perfect or flawless ? Jaime Penafiel or Paloma Barrientos was not born yesterday. There were certain qualities of Letizia simply can't be denied, for example her academic excellence, being a hard working and successful career woman and etc. Letizia had attended some Catholic events due to her role and protocol, that doesn't make her a very conservative Catholic, I think the only one who is very religious in the SRF is Queen Sofia.
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  #149  
Old 04-12-2013, 12:42 AM
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True and I agree with your assessment. However, what is astonishing in this case, is IMHO the level of hate of the Letizias cousin as well as of her aunt. Pretty much must have gone wrong in the past to reach such a breakdown in communication. Plus it always takes two. A less ambitious and more family orientated Letizia might have prevented todays revelations simply by keeping a stronger family bond. Just my opinion of course.
Letizia's cousin had involved in a corruption case, thus she distanced herself from him. Felipe had distanced himself from his sister Cristina, no doubt Letizia would follow her husband's example. Her aunt Henar didn't say anything bad about Letizia personally, she was mainly talking about her political views or her views on Monarchy, she probably also needs money, thus gave an exclusive interview recently. There were talks about the strained relation between Henar and Letizia's father due to Henar's debt affecting the grandma. Every family has questionable characters, it doesn't make Letizia less family oriented. If Felipe and Letizia had pretended Cristina/Inaki or cousin David had done nothing wrong, they are still one big happy family, it would have been a huge disaster in Spain.
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  #150  
Old 04-12-2013, 02:03 AM
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How about MM's sex and drug tape the NRF wanted to buy (her ex boyfriend revealed later) ? The Norwegian press is nothing like the Spanish press, they don't do witch hunt. I'm sure if Felipe had married someone like MM, the Spanish press would have a lot more things to talk, to invent than whatever had been out on MM. For example, Jaime Penafiel already called MM a prostitute (no proof she was) openly. Do you naively think the Spanish press would just stop after the marriage when so many people can make a good living on the 'good' stories of their CPs ? What an easy job to invent an 'exclusive' story to pocket a few thousand euros !
I find that people who make or sell sex tapes of their ex-partners are
Really,even if there was such a thing like a s.t.,I would only feel sorry for Mette-Marit or any other woman who is being exploited and deceived like that,because doing a s.movie without the consent of everyone involved or publishing such intimate details is not only shameless and immoral but also illegal as everyone has a right for privacy,in Austria/Germany you must not even photograph someone without their consent!
(Unless you are a tourist who takes pictures of famous sights in the city or you attend a public lecture/concert etc. and people constantly run into your picture,than it is allowed.)

In the case of a release of illegally received pictures/movies/informations (tapped phones,remember?), I would feel absolutely sorry for the victim of such an action & despise the person who sells such things to the public.

I feel very bad about what happened to Duchess Catherine,Prince Harry and all the other people who were illegally photographed or when people intrude in their very private life to such an extent that it is keeping them from living with their loved ones a halfway normal family life.

Remember,such an intrusion into your private matters could happen to EVERYONE of us,it is very painful and I wish no-one to suffer from being exposed in such a rude manner.

What people do in their private life is their business (as long as it stays legal!) and we might talk or discuss it,but such shameless "revelations" are cruel and not necessary. I am perfectly happy with the normal informations,seeing royals at public events,speeches & charity and I most enjoy the official photographs because the paparazzi pictures are often of very bad quality.
My wishes: News & pictures- yes!- but not at all costs and with respect for the people
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  #151  
Old 04-12-2013, 02:10 AM
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Besides isn't the Catholic Church supposed to all about Christian charity and forgiveness, confess your sins, say a few Hail Marys and then be absolved of your sins and move on with your life?
You need only to confess major sins. But you can only confess if you really repent. The "punishment" is only to give you time to think about these sins again, why you committed them and why you wish to be absolved. Then you get the absolution.

If you are not rependant, then the absolution is void. It is a holy sacrament, not some lifestyle ritual to allow you to move on with your life as if nothing had happened.
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  #152  
Old 04-12-2013, 02:16 AM
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Any sins that are committed are between you and god,not for the general public!
You can confess to a priest,but in Catholic faith true forgiveness is only if you regret your actions or sinful thinking-if you only confess but donīt feel bad for what you did and just go on to live like you did before...well,than you are only doing it for the appearance,but you canīt expect forgiveness.
Very true what you wrote,Kataryn!
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  #153  
Old 04-12-2013, 03:29 AM
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You need only to confess major sins. But you can only confess if you really repent.

If you are not rependant, then the absolution is void. It is a holy sacrament, not some lifestyle ritual.
To me it is fine if nobody shall know it when there was an abortion. This is something everybody is responsible for himself. And there are good reason to have one.

Though this is not possible regarding the catholic church as the church has it's own laws like all other ones - like it or not. Thus serious catholics must follows this laws like they have to follow the laws of the state. No one pressures anyone into the catholic church anymore, everybody is free to leave.

What a lot people like to neclect is the fact an abortion means the catholic woman in question is excommunicated automatically. It doesn't matter if someone knows it or not.

As a result a valid religious catholic wedding is not possible without confessing the abortion. It is also not possibe e.g. to receive the communion.

I don't know if Letizia had an abortion or not. If she had one it's a complete mess and to think so has not much to do with beeing overly religious or not.

Without confessing and the absolution for the abortion the religious wedding is not valid and this would be a disaster. The church wedding would have made a total mockery of the church, the priest who conducted the wedding and a lot of people who still are believers. No matter if they know it or not. After all for the catholic church marriage is a sacrament as well. And with confessing a lot catholic woman would ask themself world wide why it was so easy for Letizia to get the absolution and they struggle.

So if one wants a very much public religious catholic wedding make sure you are fit for it. If you cannot, let it be and take responsibility for your own past decissions. To me this is valid for breaking the laws of the state and also for breaking the laws of the church.

Again I don't know if Letizia had an abortion or not. As she is not my crown princess I don't care.
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  #154  
Old 04-12-2013, 03:36 AM
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Maybe she confessed to the priest, but there is the secret of confesslon, so the priest can'do anything. So all ok.
I do not imagine if the priest who receives the confession has the authority not to forgive and fordid the wedding. It sounds incredible.
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  #155  
Old 04-12-2013, 03:56 AM
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Maybe she confessed to the priest, but there is the secret of confesslon, so the priest can'do anything. So all ok.
I do not imagine if the priest who receives the confession has the authority not to forgive and fordid the wedding. It sounds incredible.
Usual to cancel the excommunication is done by a bishop. The bishop in this fictitious case is of the kind who thinks abortion is as bad as the Nazi Genozide.

Currently nobody knows if there was an abortion or not. I even don't know if Letizia was still a member of the catholic church at the alledged time. This would also change the perspectives. Thus everything is speculation and to me it ends here.
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  #156  
Old 04-12-2013, 04:43 AM
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Usual to cancel the excommunication is done by a bishop. The bishop in this fictitious case is of the kind who thinks abortion is as bad as the Nazi Genozide.
The bishop in this concrete case is of the kind that talks aloud about "childrenīs killing" (meaning abortions) and then close his eyes to the sins of the powerful people next to him. If Letizia ever confessed to him having had an abortion, I donīt have the slightest doubt that she was forgivened. After all, thatīs the bishop/priests duty, forgiving people no matter how awful their sins are and not judging them.

I donīt think either that she ever left the Catholic Church. For that, an apostasy is needed. If she did that (a long, complex process which usually need a judicial resolution), I guess we woukd know it by now. It seems easier to discover than a secret abortion.

I think single Letizia was exactly like most of young Spaniards are: baptized and so member of the CC, but not a practicant or even an atheist.
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  #157  
Old 04-12-2013, 04:51 AM
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"I am wondering why we are discussing this as if all that mr Rocasolano wrote is the truth? For all we know he/the publisher might have spiced the story up a few notches to sell more books/make more money, as is usually the case with these kinds of books."

Considering Mr Rocasolano has had a few dealings with corruption, and would likely be disbarred if a person or company makes a complaint for unprofessional conduct, believing what he says as truth is likely to believing pigs do fly.

Marengo, what is interesting about your post is the question many people in Spain, including some serious journalists are asking ...who is really behind this book?

The book itself appears to have become a pariah even with extreme right movements. In Spain it's the the extreme right that's usually behind the most ferocious attacks against Letizia. They have never forgiven her for being working class, intellectual, self made and progressive. She IS EVERYTHING they didn't want as a queen of Spain.

Still, Interconomia (a website where the KKK or the Hitler's Youth would be considered liberals) has come to her defence, and so has COPE, a private, right wing, commercial, Spanish radio network owned by a series of institutions within the Spanish Catholic Church. Something is up. The attack against her has been too brutal, and although Casa Real has stated it won't be taking Mr Rocasolano to court, as per normal agenda in the SRF, this book, and what's behind it,,has the potential to explode on "someone/s or organisation's hands".

For those who still think of Spain as a deeply catholic country, let me say a few REAL facts,

- Spain was the fourth country to allow gay marriage with full rights of adoption to gay parents.

- Our divorce laws are some of the fastest and uncomplicated in the world.

- Abortion is legal during the first 14 weeks. This law was passed in 2010, however abortion was considered a medical procedure on a doctor's recommendation before then.
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  #158  
Old 04-12-2013, 04:53 AM
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Perfect ... professional ... controlled ... my impression. I would pretty much see these adjectives as description for the same behaviour towards the public. Absolutely positive. However, every now and then a bit of emotion or imperfection makes one more human. That's a bit what I miss with her.

Back to the book. If - and that is a huge IF - there is indeed some truth in it, I wonder what the best strategy might be. Simply not commenting or finally an I-am-so-sorry-coming-out ā la MM.
I think she doesnīt have to make a public apologize, as long as she hasnīt done anything illegal. Why should she apologize for something that happened before she got married and so before being Spainīs representative?

Iīve always thought that MM public apologize was humilliating. I would never have accept to do it, and I think no woman should be forced to apologize for something that isnīt anybodyīs bussiness but hers (I donīt think a man should, either, but somehow that a man wouldnīt have had to do what MM did...)
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  #159  
Old 04-12-2013, 05:01 AM
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To me it is fine if nobody shall know it when there was an abortion. This is something everybody is responsible for himself. And there are good reason to have one.

Again I don't know if Letizia had an abortion or not. As she is not my crown princess I don't care.
This is true, as I have written in previous posts:

A) We do not know the extent of truth of the book!
Personally,I am very doubftful and highly distrust this so-called "tell-all book"...but thatīs just me,anyone can make up their own mind with the information available!

B)There are good reasons for abortion-if you are very sick,if you have a genetic disease,when you have a body that is not able to fully carry out a pregnancy which is sadly the case for many women who would love to have a baby but canīt have one. (Like Frida Kahlo-she had a terrible accident which made it impossible for her to have a child of her own,she had several miscarriages and suffered enormously from the physical+emotional pain)

Another reason for abortion is if the baby was conceived by rape,especially when it was done by a close family member which is unfortunately often the case in bad families with abusing men.In both cases I fully understand if the woman decides NOT to have that baby because it would remind her of the tragic event and if conceived by incest probably turn out unhealthy.

If the mother is taking drugs/alcoholic/too much cigarettes and tobacco-this can have such enormous effects on the foetus,that it really makes me sad everytime I see a poor child who is born a cripple because the mother did not look after her body & health. The woman should first try to get a healthy body & lifestyle and than she can have a baby.

These are some very important reasons why I believe that abortion should be allowed without punishment and harassment or "moral judgement" if they really need it.
Of course, as I have noted before-it is better to avoid it,but in some cases you are not in control of what is happening to you and I would always stand up & fight for the lady who has been raped/abused and does not want to carry out the baby,because I find it more important to save and protect the woman who is already in this world-who is alive and trying to manage her life - instead of protecting unborn lives that might not even be born healthy or have very little chances to survive.

C) Whatever happened before CP Letizia married - I am sure that she has confessed in church & regrets some parts of her past like we all do,nobody is perfect! As we see in her work & attitude-she is doing her best to be a dutiful princess,wife & mother of such lovely,adorable girls! This should be enough proof that she has a good character & a decent set of moral values & principles:-)
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  #160  
Old 04-12-2013, 05:02 AM
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I think she doesnīt have to make a public apologize, as long as she hasnīt done anything illegal. Why should she apologize for something that happened before she got married and so before being Spainīs representative?

Iīve always thought that MM public apologize was humilliating. I would never have accept to do it, and I think no woman should be forced to apologize for something that isnīt anybodyīs bussiness but hers (I donīt think a man should, either, but somehow that a man wouldnīt have had to do what MM did...)
I agree Annie. Letizia is doing what she has to do. Her job. She has a good role model in Queen Sofia. Focus on what's needs to be done, and soldier on head high.

Letizia has nothing to apologise for. She is doing a great job.
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