"1015 København K" - Trine Villemann

[Viv]

Originally Posted by enneagramj

It may also have to do with the fact that many Danish princes in the 20th century who married Danes lost their titles and styles. By marrying foreigners, Danish royals did not have to open that can of worms.

As a matter of fact: the first Danish princes to lose their princely
titles in the 20th century married foreigners; I'm thinking of Princes
Aage, Erik and Viggo (the "Valdemars"). If I remember correctly
(..sorry, right now I'm too comfortable to run upstairs and check
the proper source ) Prince Aage was styled "Prince Aage,
count of Rosenborg),the others were relegated to "counts" even though
Viggo and his wife were popularly known as "prince and princess Viggo".

Maybe someone can corroborate?
Sorry for going off topic, btw!

[denice]

I too was surprised about Alexandra. I really didn't know much about her at all. I had only seen pictirues of her and thought she was lovely. Very "princessy". I was surprised when they announced the divorce. I only became interested in the Danish royals when Mary came on the scene.

[Villemann]

Originally Posted by Lilla

The question is - were they just girlfriends - just the same way as I had boyfriends whom I dumped after us being together for years?



That is speculating. Anyway I have no idea what the usual Margrethe-context is - the frasing in itselfe lead to the word speculation.

But all in all, what I think Viv is, this discussion of ours is about nothing but speculations. I prefere facts.

I accept that there are things going on that neither I nor you or Villemann knows anything about and when one person interpret/speculate one thing - another person just as easily can come up with the opposite. Speculating or interpreting will never provide the truths - only speculations.

The posts om this thread is a very good example of that, the last of youres, the previous of mine and this included

But yes, knowing I am speculating, I am convinced Frederik would have ended up marrying Mary - also if she was born Danish.

I disagree . CP Frederik would never have married Mary if the DRF had not had that silly family tradition. He wanted to marry Katja in 1995, but the Queen would not give her consent, because Katja was Danish.

[Madame Royale]

but the Queen would not give her consent, because Katja was Danish.

You know this as a definate fact? I mean you are 150% (stuff 110) certain, and can provide the evidence to support it, that the reason Frederik didn't marry her was because Margrethe stipulated that he had to marry a foreigner. Not advised, stipulated.

[Villemann]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

You know this as a definate fact? I mean you are 150% (stuff 110) certain, and can provide the evidence to support it, that the reason Frederik didn't marry her was because Margrethe stipulated that he had to marry a foreigner. Not advised, stipulated.

Yes, I know it for a fact. The Queen said no. Will I provide my sources on this? No, I will not, but has it been denied by any of the partiers invlved back then? No, It hasn't!

[Madame Royale]

Of course you won't (can't) provide the evidence...

Did I really think you would/could? Of course not, but there's always hope that some day you shall...

[Viv]

Originally Posted by Lilla

That is speculating. Anyway I have no idea what the usual Margrethe-context is - the frasing in itselfe lead to the word speculation. .... But all in all, what I think Viv is, this discussion of ours is about nothing but speculations. I prefere facts. .

To read something in context is a tool of text analysis. I will PM you on this!

[Villemann]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

Of course you won't (can't) provide the evidence...

Did I really think you would/could? Of course not, but there's always hope that some day you shall...

Have you actually read my book?

[Madame Royale]

I have indeed read your book, and before it was released in english too...

A Danish girlfriend of mine was kind enough, in her 'free' time, to translate the content (she is a secreterial translator by profession).

[Viv]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

You know this as a definate fact? I mean you are 150% (stuff 110) certain, and can provide the evidence to support it, that the reason Frederik didn't marry her was because Margrethe stipulated that he had to marry a foreigner. Not advised, stipulated.

I am inclined to believe Villemann, and I'll try to explain why:
Something unusual happened when the relationship ended:
The lawyer of Katjas family issued a statement, that "the relationship
with CP Frederik has been terminated". This had never happened before Katja,
nor did it happen after! My reaction at the time was that it was
overkill! Why go public about the break-up of a relationship, which
never was an official relationship? In hindsight, there must have been
a good reason for issuing such a statement, and this is where
Villemanns assertion fits in!

This is no proof, I know ! Unfortunately you can never get
to all the facts where royalty is concerned. That's part of the
trade if you like, the royal mystery; that's why speculations cannot
be entirely avoided when you're interested in royalty. While you
should never present speculations as facts, there's always the
grey-zone area called probability.

[Madame Royale]

Of course, but it's when probability or assumptions are presented as steadfast fact, that we, the consumer, have a right to question the credibility of both the discussed subject and journalist. I understand that there are occasions when evidence, for reasons of confidentiality is unable to be granted. But where has evidence been given thus far? I've seen little, to no show of it.

Certainly I wasn't in Denmark at the time, and profess not to know the reaction or ambience of the situation when it arose. But my opinion rely's on facts and not estimations of 'truth', which until proven otherwise, remain just that.

Still, I appreciate your post Viv...

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Villemann

Yes, I know it for a fact. The Queen said no.

It could well be that the queen said no. But there are several explanations for her reaction. One should not forget that when it came to the marriages of Margrethe and her sisters, the succession had been changed only a short time before - any Danish husband could well have outshone his wife and become in the public eye the "real" king of Denmark, especially as it was a quite new idea for the Danes to get a queen regnant. So, yes, it was better for the princesses to marry foreigners.

And in 1995 the whole Royal world watched the War of the Waleses and the role of the media involved (Dimbleby/Panorama) - surely Margarethe must have realised that Diana had such a strong position in the UK because she was an "English rose" from one of the best families and that she would have much less support from the media and thus much less destructive power if she had been a foreigner. So it makes sense that Margrethe advised her sons to look for their wifes elsewhere and seeing the outcome of the Fergie and Diana-divorces and that of Alexandra, I guess she was proven right by history.

What I wanted to say: the fact that Margrethe might have been against marrying Danes is not necessarily based in a negative view of the Danes - she is not necessarily condescending if she thinks that way, it's rather Royal pragmatism.

[ysbel]

The English though still favor an English bride for their future King. Look at who William is dating.

Actually the last true foreign Princess of Wales was Alexandra of Denmark who always retained her first love for her home country of Denmark. Mary was a German princess who had been raised as an Englishwoman and Prince Philip had been raised as an Englishman.

I don't know if other countries have these unspoken rules about who their Crown Prince should marry but England and Denmark seem to have the belief that the heir to the English throne should marry an Englishwoman and the heir to the Danish throne should marry a non-Dane.

[ysbel]

How much does the book go into the personality of Federik IX? Margrethe seemed to adore her father but I always thought he had great similarities to George VI both good qualities and bad.

Even before the advent of tabloid journalism, there was a story about the Prime Minister having a talk with Queen Ingrid about the King's drinking. It appeared as if the throne was a bit too much for him sometimes.

He also had the misfortune of having Christian X as a father. Christian X seemed like the most unmanageable and intimidating King ever and Queen Alexandrine seemed to have her hands full with him.

Christian X was still alive when Margrethe was a child so I wonder how much this family dynamic when Margrethe was born is covered in the book. It had to have had an impact on the way the family was raised later.

[Lilla]

Originally Posted by Viv

My reaction at the time was that it was
overkill! Why go public about the break-up of a relationship, which
never was an official relationship? In hindsight, there must have been
a good reason for issuing such a statement, and this is where
Villemanns assertion fits in!

I had the same reaction - overkill. But I do think the reason for the statement was to - once and for all - make the media know that the relationship had ended and consequently there was no more reason for the media to speculate. Futhermore the message could be - if the media keept on speculating they were at risk of being sued by Katjas family.

So, this is another way of interpreting the event and Villemanns assertion does not fit in to this interpretation.

Fact is nobody knows why Katjas family chose this course of action except those involvede.

Originally Posted by Villemann

No, I will not, but has it been denied by any of the partiers invlved back then? No, It hasn't!

That is IMO an empty argument.

If TRF should walk around denying every speculation made by the media - they wouldn't have time for anything else.

[Madame Royale]

If TRF should walk around denying every speculation made by the media

Pandering to the intrusiveness of the media would set a dangerous precedent. We think they're bad now...imagine what they'd be like if the RF openly clarified everything that went on in their lives. They'd be done for, not because of what they'd have to say but because they'd become the easy target.

The fact they don't really give much away is the best thing they can do. A dignified silence whether there's anything to say or not is certainly the best medicine. And the journo's hate it...even better...

[Australian]

Originally Posted by Madame Royale

The fact they don't really give much away is the best thing they can do. A dignified silence whether there's anything to say or not is certainly the best medicine. And the journo's hate it...even better...

That is true, silence is golden...........and the RF probably feel if they comment on all gossip, then it gives the gossip more publicity, which is defeating their purpose

[Lilla]

Originally Posted by Villemann

that silly family tradition.

If it was in fact a tradition - you are right - then it would be silly.

But it is not a tradition. The reasons for marrying people not born in Denmark are - as many posters on this thread has written - multiple and quit understandable. I for one have no problems with Danish Princesses comming from abroad and as I have stated before if the love of Frederik life - CP Mary - had been danish she would still have become his wife. Their is no doubt in my mind!!!!

[Marengo]

Well, sometimes you want to help love a bit, and steer it to another direction. It is widely said by Dutch reporters that Queen Beatrix preferred a foreign daughter-in-law too. At least it couldn't have been your neighbour, she has little friends, family etc. in the country that may talk and it makes a common daughter-in-law somehow less common. Now if the PoO would have married a Dutch barones the same thing would have been accomplished too of course, but he did not. It is a rather logical way of thinking and I can imagine that it might have come up in the head of the Queen of Denmark too. Royalty needs to be on some distanse to survive, and since they are all marrying commoners now, a foreigner at least provides some form of distance/ exotisism.

All this love talk is all fine, but the head of state has two roles in this: she is a mother and a head of state. If she does not think a girlfriend is up to the job she should do what she can to protect the institution, even if it means that it is not what her maternal instincts would say. I believe Queen Margrethe II, Queen Beatrix, King Albert II, King Juan-Carlos etc. have all done this in the past, and thank goodness that they did!

[Viv]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Well, sometimes you want to help love a bit, and steer it to another direction. It is widely said by Dutch reporters that Queen Beatrix preferred a foreign daughter-in-law too.

Thanks Marengo, I was wondering about the Netherlands and about to ask! The difference between NL/DK is that this principle, as I believe it is does not apply to the younger sons of the monarch!