Discussion about Sofia Hellqvist's Past & Future Role in the Royal Family

[MARG]

. . . . . I don't want Sofia to be titled because I dont see her fit to represent a country.

Well Fra, since it's your country she would, in theory, be representing I have to bow to your feelings on the subject! I am certainly in agreement with you.

I understand your feelings Fra but, since you give no reasons and even though she will be representing your country, I would have to diagree.

The very last thing that Sweden needs is to be shown internationally as a mean spirited and vengeful country. Your country has enjoyed a wonderful international reputation for tolerance and equality . . . but, now, in this the 21st Century, you want to ditch it. You cannot make it just about Sofia because that would be both intolerant and unequal.

^^^Will their be life-long pouting when Sofia becomes a princess???

Oh yes, that's pretty much a given, I should think.

 

[COUNTESS]

She will make another lovely princess. What difference does it make what she did a long time ago. She will be who she becomes. Chris is a strong man and doesn't need to become part of the royal scene. I think his moving to Europe is try to help Madeleine and that could change a year from now. He will find employment. Sofia will wave and find he niche, too.

 

[Lady Nimue]

I'm totally serious. What does she want to do with her life these days?

Being the wife of a prince is what she wants to do with her life these days. Living a life embedded in royalty, in wealth, with some nifty privileges like being seen and noticed. Stuff like that.

In time she will have babies and she'll be raising a family. More nifty attention, being photographed. She's good at that so maybe we could say that is her 'field': Royal model. Her 'field' will be her family, her house, the royal year's social calendar. Dresses, jewels, hair and body tending take time. Vacations are necessary to maintain a relaxed, stress-free demeanor. It's a good life. A good 'field' to be in. Why should she have anything more? An interesting question. I think she has it all.

In sum, I think she's pursuing her ambitions. Those ambitions may just not jive with ideas of 'business woman' or even charity/society doyenne.

I'm waiting to see where they marry, how the wedding is handled and who attends, and how they conduct themselves post-wedding. As someone said, Carl Philip is not a full-time royal, Sofia is unlikely to be anything more than her husband. Yet, who knows what is to come. Time will tell. Maybe Madeleine will be side-lined and Sofia will rise as the beloved Princess of Sweden, second to Victoria. Only a healthy ambition could effect that. In time, we'll see what kind of ambition drives Sofia. It will become clear.

 

[xenobia]

She might want to be just a wife and mother, but I don't think it will go down well with the swedish crowd, unless she's a full time royal (which she won't be, I agree). Most swedish women have both a family and a career. We wouldn't expect anything less from our royal family.

I think that Madeleine will more or less withdraw from the royal scene in the future. We might see her on Nobel and the national day, but that's it. The kind and queen aren't getting younger, same thing for princess Birgitta (who has taken on more royal duties than we might think). And if D&V have more children they would need some time off. The field is wide open to CP&Sofia.

 

[LadyFinn]

Sofia with Camilla Sundman, with whom she left to New York, they shared an apartment there. Camilla was at Paradise Hotel same year as Sofia.
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[Fra85]

I understand your feelings Fra but, since you give no reasons and even though she will be representing your country, I would have to diagree.

The very last thing that Sweden needs is to be shown internationally as a mean spirited and vengeful country. Your country has enjoyed a wonderful international reputation for tolerance and equality . . . but, now, in this the 21st Century, you want to ditch it. You cannot make it just about Sofia because that would be both intolerant and unequal.

Oh yes, that's pretty much a given, I should think.

I doubt that being a country that has a good reputation for tolerance and equality means that you have to think anybody can represent a country. Also I doubt internationally, people would care about her getting a title or not, or would think Sweden is racist or intolerant.
I would have had the same issues with Daniel or Chris having the same past and getting a title so it's not about her as a woman.

I didnt' explain my comment for two reasons: 1) it's known why some people might think she isnt the best choice to have a public role 2) some other explanations could be given, but I doubt the forum rules allow it.
Btw, it's a public forum. if people feel she isn't right to represent a country,it's not pouting, it's an opinion as good as the one of those that think she is right.

 

[Ish]

I doubt that being a country that has a good reputation for tolerance and equality means that you have to think anybody can represent a country. Also I doubt internationally, people would care about her getting a title or not, or would think Sweden is racist or intolerant.
I would have had the same issues with Daniel or Chris having the same past and getting a title so it's not about her as a woman.

I didnt' explain my comment for two reasons: 1) it's known why some people might think she isnt the best choice to have a public role 2) some other explanations could be given, but I doubt the forum rules allow it.
Btw, it's a public forum. if people feel she isn't right to represent a country,it's not pouting, it's an opinion as good as the one of those that think she is right.

Fra, I understand where you're coming from here. It is fair to question whether or not Sofia, or someone with her background, is an appropriate representative of a country.

However, like it or not the decision as essentially been made already. She has been given permission to marry CP, and therefore she has been approved as a person who is allowed to be a royal. Any other response is going to re-establish morganatic marriages within Sweden.

Comparing the hypothetical situation of her not getting titles to Chris not having titles is a poor analogy. In western custom, women typically take their husband's names at marriage, the husband pretty much never does the same (and him doing so is not automatic). While it is becoming more common for women to chose not to take their husband's names, it pretty much doesn't happen in Royal circles unless the woman is a heir herself. For Sofia to chose to not hold titles would be to go against custom. She could, but I wouldn't expect it. Chris on the other hand not accepting a title wasn't at all abnormal.

If Sofia was deliberately denied a title, however - if the King or the government decided that she couldn't hold her husband's titles as is the right of any wife in Sweden - then they would be recreating morganatic law in the 21st century.

If for whatever reason a woman is deemed not fit to represent a country as a royal then that country through its monarch or government should not consent to her marrying into the family. To grant consent and then to take a step backwards and try to say that the marriage is unequal or morganatic and that she is not to have any titles, or to only have lesser titles, is to take a step backwards.

 

[xenobia]

Just want to comment on a detail. In Sweden, it's not presumed that a woman takes her husbands name when they marry. The couple can chose to keep their last names. They can also chose to take the woman's last name, a family name or a new last name. It's all very optional. When I married we took my husbands mothers maiden name, just as an example.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

^^^ These people aren't part of the general population and can change the rules or tradition to suit themselves, Daniel is a Bernadotte now...if he's happy with it who am I to care. Sofia will become a Bernadotte as well. She's marrying the King's son and I doubt C-P will be changing his name to Hellqvist.

 

[Osipi]

^^^ These people aren't part of the general population and can change the rules or tradition to suit themselves, Daniel is a Bernadotte now...if he's happy with it who am I to care. Sofia will become a Bernadotte as well. She's marrying the King's son and I doubt C-P will be changing his name to Hellqvist.

One thing is almost a for certain thing. After the wedding, even if Sophia does take the surname Bernadotte, the media will most likely forevermore still call her Sophia Hellqvist as they do Camilla Parker-Bowles and Kate Middleton.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

Most likely. In the Big Picture, I know who they are, so I just read over it.

 

[Stefan]

One thing is almost a for certain thing. After the wedding, even if Sophia does take the surname Bernadotte, the media will most likely forevermore still call her Sophia Hellqvist as they do Camilla Parker-Bowles and Kate Middleton.

Actually it is mainly about the british Royals. You see very seldom Mary Donaldson or Maxioma Zorreguieta or Mette-Marit Tjessem Hoiby in the Press.

 

[Osipi]

Actually it is mainly about the british Royals. You see very seldom Mary Donaldson or Maxioma Zorreguieta or Mette-Marit Tjessem Hoiby in the Press.

Thanks for the clarification on this. It should have hit me that its the British that have the Daily Fail and does that kind of stuff. Nevermind. On with the discussions.

 

[Tilia C.]

I have read 'Princess Mary Donaldson' several times in the press. And they also like to write about 'Prince Andrea Casiraghi' sometimes. Those Journalists tend to use titles and names as it suits them. So I wont be surprised if they the press will continue to use her maiden name at least from time to time.

 

[SLV]

My guess is that it depends which variation gets the most hits. Sophia H will certainly do better than CP's title.

 

[scooter]

Just want to comment on a detail. In Sweden, it's not presumed that a woman takes her husbands name when they marry. The couple can chose to keep their last names. They can also chose to take the woman's last name, a family name or a new last name. It's all very optional. When I married we took my husbands mothers maiden name, just as an example.

I might add that it is the same in this counry. When you apply for a marriage license, they ask you what name you mean to go by...maiden, husbands, hyphen, etc. It is the same when you have a baby. when you fill out the birth forms, if You are Ms X and father is Mr Y which name or hyphen will it be.

 

[COUNTESS]

One thing is almost a for certain thing. After the wedding, even if Sophia does take the surname Bernadotte, the media will most likely forevermore still call her Sophia Hellqvist as they do Camilla Parker-Bowles and Kate Middleton.

Yes, because it is the name you know here as, Camilla name is her first husband's, not her maiden name and there is baggage that accompanies that, and Kate get's called Middleton, because Windsor is a fake name, she could be called Cambridge, but we don't do those things anymore. Daniel is a man who gave up his last name, unusual, so be it.

 

[Ish]

My guess is that it depends which variation gets the most hits. Sophia H will certainly do better than CP's title.

I think that tends to be the way it works with the British and I wouldn't be surprised if the same happens with Sofia just because she'll get more hits off of her maiden name.

With other royal brides, I would guess the reasoning behind their actual titles being used more frequently would be twofold; 1. a good chunk of them aren't as well known in English media sites prior to their marriages, meaning that people searching for them are more likely to do so using their proper (or more proper) titles, and 2. non-British European titles tend to be easier to understand than the British ones. If you're not well versed in the workings of British titles, it's easier to figure out that Mary Donaldson is Mary, Crown Princess of Sweden than the fact that Kate Middleton is the Duchess of Cambridge (and yet is also a royal even though "Duchess" isn't a royal title).

 

[scooter]

So to get back to the topic of the thread. The most immediate issue I think you are going to see re:Her Past, is that I think you will see a very small royal attendance at the wedding. As an ongoing issue, I dont see how the SRF can realistically expect that any of the Arab/muslim royals will be willing to meet her at any point. For that matter, I cant really see her being received at the Vatican, despite what a lovely inclusive man HH the Pope appears to be. JMHO of course. Perhaps I am wrong. We shall see in June.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Yeah, I personally think it'll be super convenient to see if I need to cut some narrow-minded royal families out of my interests. Though I highly doubt it. To me, it will be almost scandalous if the royal attendance at the very least doesn't match Madeleine's wedding considering that CP is further up the line of succession than her. But oh well, at least I'll rejoice in my 99% certainty (and pride) that the Danish royal family will be there in large numbers

 

[Cris M]

Isn't the Pope the Head of a religion which teaches about repentance and forgiveness?

Of course we see a lot of false moralists living a very selective Christianity, but I doubt that's the case with His Holiness and the other Royal Families, but it's something I see a lot on internet.

Anyway, Sofia is Lutheran so I don't think she'd care about the Pope not wanting to meet her.

 

[Frelinghighness]

Isn't the Pope the Head of a religion which teaches about repentance and forgiveness?

Of course we see a lot of false moralists living a very selective Christianity, but I doubt that's the case with His Holiness and the other Royal Families, but it's something I see a lot on internet.

Anyway, Sofia is Lutheran so I don't think she'd care about the Pope not wanting to meet her.

Thank you for reminding us about what the Catholic Church is supposed to be for. Our new pope is a breath of fresh air

 

[HRHHermione]

So to get back to the topic of the thread. The most immediate issue I think you are going to see re:Her Past, is that I think you will see a very small royal attendance at the wedding. As an ongoing issue, I dont see how the SRF can realistically expect that any of the Arab/muslim royals will be willing to meet her at any point. For that matter, I cant really see her being received at the Vatican, despite what a lovely inclusive man HH the Pope appears to be. JMHO of course. Perhaps I am wrong. We shall see in June.

The pope isn't exactly known for refusing to meet people because they've done things he disagrees with in the past... I think that you're wrong and attendance will be about the same as it was for Madeleine.

 

[MARG]

One thing is almost a for certain thing. After the wedding, even if Sophia does take the surname Bernadotte, the media will most likely forevermore still call her Sophia Hellqvist as they do Camilla Parker-Bowles and Kate Middleton.

Most likely. In the Big Picture, I know who they are, so I just read over it.

Actually it is mainly about the british Royals. You see very seldom Mary Donaldson or Maxioma Zorreguieta or Mette-Marit Tjessem Hoiby in the Press.

Yes, the wierd, anglosaxon 'name' deal is certainly a little odd. We don't really know why the Daily Fail, et al. persist in the use of previous names. If it is imagined that Sofia will always be referred to by her maiden name because of her "notoriety" then the odd inclusion of Catherine Middleton gives two choices for reason.

First: She too has a degree of notoriety having lived withh William for the better part of ten years, or

Second: The staff on the DF, et al. are all too ignorant and ill educated to remember who's who.

So that leaves us as Kitty has said, knowing the players are which means we ignore it and remember the cold hard truth as quoted by Stefan . . . for the most part, this degree of offenive insult seems to be almost soley the purview of the UK tabloids.

So to get back to the topic of the thread. The most immediate issue I think you are going to see re:Her Past, is that I think you will see a very small royal attendance at the wedding. As an ongoing issue, I dont see how the SRF can realistically expect that any of the Arab/muslim royals will be willing to meet her at any point. For that matter, I cant really see her being received at the Vatican, despite what a lovely inclusive man HH the Pope appears to be. JMHO of course. Perhaps I am wrong. We shall see in June.

Hmm, it will indeed be interesting to see what style of wedding Carl Philip and Sofia choose because that will dictate, to a large extent, who does and who doesn't get invited. Then we can see from the RSVP's who declines the invitaton. As for His Holiness? I believe he has a greater calling than 'Judge'!

 

[Lee-Z]

attendance will be about the same as it was for Madeleine.

That would be my guess at the moment too, but Madeleine's wedding had relatively few "foreign" guests, and when that happens at Carl-Philip's wedding i'm willing to place a bet on some people saying that is *because* of Sofia's past and ignoring the fact that it was the same at Madeleine's...

 

[scooter]

Well we shall see wont we? But of course if no or few foreign royals attend it will be because *of a previous engagement* 18 months in advance, I am sure there will be a rationaliztion. As far as the Pope, lets see, shall we, when CP and his future wife receive an invitation.

 

[Pranter]

Eh not really sure what the pope has to do with a wedding of Protestant royals who aren't even going to be ruling royals....however even by the teachings of the Catholic Church their marriage would be presumed to be valid so that's not an issue.

Not sure why CP and Sohpia would be invited to the vatican unless it was that they would be accompanying his parents on an official visit or something...



LaRae

 

[Marengo]

No, I do not understand why and how the Vatican got mixed up in this either. Though love, forgiveness and acceptance should be the church teachings, in reality it is more complicated, as a recent petition against gays and divorced people -signed by several non-reigning royals- shows. Still, there are no petitions yet against former nude models so I do not see why a pope would refuse to meet S. Though it is not likely that CP&S will ever meet a pope as they are Lutheran.

As for the foreign royal guests: I do not think people will stay away for the bride -regardless of their feelings for her (if they have any). Out of solidarity with the Swedish RF most houses will show up, they most likely do not know SH at this point. A simular guest list as Madeleine's is expected. Though in this case perhaps a few higher guests even; Q. Margrethe II is his godmother. Maybe a few royals from the Netherlands and Belgium will come too as in 2013 they were occupied with their enthronements. I suspect Spain will be absent.

 

[Lee-Z]

Well we shall see wont we? But of course if no or few foreign royals attend it will be because *of a previous engagement* 18 months in advance, I am sure there will be a rationaliztion. As far as the Pope, lets see, shall we, when CP and his future wife receive an invitation.

And you will assume that the rationalization will secretly have to do with their opinion of Sofia's past, right?
Despite using the phrase "JMHO" a lot in your posts recently, you seem to project your own opinion a lot on what you think others (royals in this case) will do or think, but as most of them are professionals at what they do we will never know what they actually think.
For all we know, they might love Sofia's photos...

and ofcourse, this is only mo

 

[Roslyn]

This issue of who will be attending the wedding will be resolved with the passage of time. We just have to wait patiently for three months.