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  #901  
Old 02-13-2015, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Fra85 View Post
. . . . . I don't want Sofia to be titled because I dont see her fit to represent a country.
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
Well Fra, since it's your country she would, in theory, be representing I have to bow to your feelings on the subject! :-) I am certainly in agreement with you.
I understand your feelings Fra but, since you give no reasons and even though she will be representing your country, I would have to diagree.

The very last thing that Sweden needs is to be shown internationally as a mean spirited and vengeful country. Your country has enjoyed a wonderful international reputation for tolerance and equality . . . but, now, in this the 21st Century, you want to ditch it. You cannot make it just about Sofia because that would be both intolerant and unequal.

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Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
^^^Will their be life-long pouting when Sofia becomes a princess???
Oh yes, that's pretty much a given, I should think.
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  #902  
Old 02-13-2015, 08:44 PM
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She will make another lovely princess. What difference does it make what she did a long time ago. She will be who she becomes. Chris is a strong man and doesn't need to become part of the royal scene. I think his moving to Europe is try to help Madeleine and that could change a year from now. He will find employment. Sofia will wave and find he niche, too.
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  #903  
Old 02-14-2015, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
I'm totally serious. What does she want to do with her life these days?
Being the wife of a prince is what she wants to do with her life these days. Living a life embedded in royalty, in wealth, with some nifty privileges like being seen and noticed. Stuff like that.

In time she will have babies and she'll be raising a family. More nifty attention, being photographed. She's good at that so maybe we could say that is her 'field': Royal model. Her 'field' will be her family, her house, the royal year's social calendar. Dresses, jewels, hair and body tending take time. Vacations are necessary to maintain a relaxed, stress-free demeanor. It's a good life. A good 'field' to be in. Why should she have anything more? An interesting question. I think she has it all.

In sum, I think she's pursuing her ambitions. Those ambitions may just not jive with ideas of 'business woman' or even charity/society doyenne.

I'm waiting to see where they marry, how the wedding is handled and who attends, and how they conduct themselves post-wedding. As someone said, Carl Philip is not a full-time royal, Sofia is unlikely to be anything more than her husband. Yet, who knows what is to come. Time will tell. Maybe Madeleine will be side-lined and Sofia will rise as the beloved Princess of Sweden, second to Victoria. Only a healthy ambition could effect that. In time, we'll see what kind of ambition drives Sofia. It will become clear.
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  #904  
Old 02-14-2015, 04:49 AM
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She might want to be just a wife and mother, but I don't think it will go down well with the swedish crowd, unless she's a full time royal (which she won't be, I agree). Most swedish women have both a family and a career. We wouldn't expect anything less from our royal family.

I think that Madeleine will more or less withdraw from the royal scene in the future. We might see her on Nobel and the national day, but that's it. The kind and queen aren't getting younger, same thing for princess Birgitta (who has taken on more royal duties than we might think). And if D&V have more children they would need some time off. The field is wide open to CP&Sofia.
  #906  
Old 02-16-2015, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
I understand your feelings Fra but, since you give no reasons and even though she will be representing your country, I would have to diagree.

The very last thing that Sweden needs is to be shown internationally as a mean spirited and vengeful country. Your country has enjoyed a wonderful international reputation for tolerance and equality . . . but, now, in this the 21st Century, you want to ditch it. You cannot make it just about Sofia because that would be both intolerant and unequal.

Oh yes, that's pretty much a given, I should think.

I doubt that being a country that has a good reputation for tolerance and equality means that you have to think anybody can represent a country. Also I doubt internationally, people would care about her getting a title or not, or would think Sweden is racist or intolerant.
I would have had the same issues with Daniel or Chris having the same past and getting a title so it's not about her as a woman.

I didnt' explain my comment for two reasons: 1) it's known why some people might think she isnt the best choice to have a public role 2) some other explanations could be given, but I doubt the forum rules allow it.
Btw, it's a public forum. if people feel she isn't right to represent a country,it's not pouting, it's an opinion as good as the one of those that think she is right.
  #907  
Old 02-16-2015, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Fra85 View Post
I doubt that being a country that has a good reputation for tolerance and equality means that you have to think anybody can represent a country. Also I doubt internationally, people would care about her getting a title or not, or would think Sweden is racist or intolerant.
I would have had the same issues with Daniel or Chris having the same past and getting a title so it's not about her as a woman.

I didnt' explain my comment for two reasons: 1) it's known why some people might think she isnt the best choice to have a public role 2) some other explanations could be given, but I doubt the forum rules allow it.
Btw, it's a public forum. if people feel she isn't right to represent a country,it's not pouting, it's an opinion as good as the one of those that think she is right.

Fra, I understand where you're coming from here. It is fair to question whether or not Sofia, or someone with her background, is an appropriate representative of a country.

However, like it or not the decision as essentially been made already. She has been given permission to marry CP, and therefore she has been approved as a person who is allowed to be a royal. Any other response is going to re-establish morganatic marriages within Sweden.

Comparing the hypothetical situation of her not getting titles to Chris not having titles is a poor analogy. In western custom, women typically take their husband's names at marriage, the husband pretty much never does the same (and him doing so is not automatic). While it is becoming more common for women to chose not to take their husband's names, it pretty much doesn't happen in Royal circles unless the woman is a heir herself. For Sofia to chose to not hold titles would be to go against custom. She could, but I wouldn't expect it. Chris on the other hand not accepting a title wasn't at all abnormal.

If Sofia was deliberately denied a title, however - if the King or the government decided that she couldn't hold her husband's titles as is the right of any wife in Sweden - then they would be recreating morganatic law in the 21st century.

If for whatever reason a woman is deemed not fit to represent a country as a royal then that country through its monarch or government should not consent to her marrying into the family. To grant consent and then to take a step backwards and try to say that the marriage is unequal or morganatic and that she is not to have any titles, or to only have lesser titles, is to take a step backwards.
  #908  
Old 02-16-2015, 05:07 PM
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Just want to comment on a detail. In Sweden, it's not presumed that a woman takes her husbands name when they marry. The couple can chose to keep their last names. They can also chose to take the woman's last name, a family name or a new last name. It's all very optional. When I married we took my husbands mothers maiden name, just as an example.
  #909  
Old 02-17-2015, 12:09 PM
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^^^ These people aren't part of the general population and can change the rules or tradition to suit themselves, Daniel is a Bernadotte now...if he's happy with it who am I to care. Sofia will become a Bernadotte as well. She's marrying the King's son and I doubt C-P will be changing his name to Hellqvist.
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  #910  
Old 02-17-2015, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
^^^ These people aren't part of the general population and can change the rules or tradition to suit themselves, Daniel is a Bernadotte now...if he's happy with it who am I to care. Sofia will become a Bernadotte as well. She's marrying the King's son and I doubt C-P will be changing his name to Hellqvist.
One thing is almost a for certain thing. After the wedding, even if Sophia does take the surname Bernadotte, the media will most likely forevermore still call her Sophia Hellqvist as they do Camilla Parker-Bowles and Kate Middleton.
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  #911  
Old 02-17-2015, 01:30 PM
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Most likely. In the Big Picture, I know who they are, so I just read over it.
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  #912  
Old 02-17-2015, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
One thing is almost a for certain thing. After the wedding, even if Sophia does take the surname Bernadotte, the media will most likely forevermore still call her Sophia Hellqvist as they do Camilla Parker-Bowles and Kate Middleton.

Actually it is mainly about the british Royals. You see very seldom Mary Donaldson or Maxioma Zorreguieta or Mette-Marit Tjessem Hoiby in the Press.
  #913  
Old 02-17-2015, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Actually it is mainly about the british Royals. You see very seldom Mary Donaldson or Maxioma Zorreguieta or Mette-Marit Tjessem Hoiby in the Press.
Thanks for the clarification on this. It should have hit me that its the British that have the Daily Fail and does that kind of stuff. Nevermind. On with the discussions.
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  #914  
Old 02-17-2015, 02:55 PM
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I have read 'Princess Mary Donaldson' several times in the press. And they also like to write about 'Prince Andrea Casiraghi' sometimes. Those Journalists tend to use titles and names as it suits them. So I wont be surprised if they the press will continue to use her maiden name at least from time to time.
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  #915  
Old 02-17-2015, 03:01 PM
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My guess is that it depends which variation gets the most hits. Sophia H will certainly do better than CP's title.
  #916  
Old 02-17-2015, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
Just want to comment on a detail. In Sweden, it's not presumed that a woman takes her husbands name when they marry. The couple can chose to keep their last names. They can also chose to take the woman's last name, a family name or a new last name. It's all very optional. When I married we took my husbands mothers maiden name, just as an example.
I might add that it is the same in this counry. When you apply for a marriage license, they ask you what name you mean to go by...maiden, husbands, hyphen, etc. It is the same when you have a baby. when you fill out the birth forms, if You are Ms X and father is Mr Y which name or hyphen will it be.
  #917  
Old 02-17-2015, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
One thing is almost a for certain thing. After the wedding, even if Sophia does take the surname Bernadotte, the media will most likely forevermore still call her Sophia Hellqvist as they do Camilla Parker-Bowles and Kate Middleton.
Yes, because it is the name you know here as, Camilla name is her first husband's, not her maiden name and there is baggage that accompanies that, and Kate get's called Middleton, because Windsor is a fake name, she could be called Cambridge, but we don't do those things anymore. Daniel is a man who gave up his last name, unusual, so be it.
  #918  
Old 02-17-2015, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SLV View Post
My guess is that it depends which variation gets the most hits. Sophia H will certainly do better than CP's title.

I think that tends to be the way it works with the British and I wouldn't be surprised if the same happens with Sofia just because she'll get more hits off of her maiden name.

With other royal brides, I would guess the reasoning behind their actual titles being used more frequently would be twofold; 1. a good chunk of them aren't as well known in English media sites prior to their marriages, meaning that people searching for them are more likely to do so using their proper (or more proper) titles, and 2. non-British European titles tend to be easier to understand than the British ones. If you're not well versed in the workings of British titles, it's easier to figure out that Mary Donaldson is Mary, Crown Princess of Sweden than the fact that Kate Middleton is the Duchess of Cambridge (and yet is also a royal even though "Duchess" isn't a royal title).
  #919  
Old 02-19-2015, 08:05 PM
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So to get back to the topic of the thread. The most immediate issue I think you are going to see re:Her Past, is that I think you will see a very small royal attendance at the wedding. As an ongoing issue, I dont see how the SRF can realistically expect that any of the Arab/muslim royals will be willing to meet her at any point. For that matter, I cant really see her being received at the Vatican, despite what a lovely inclusive man HH the Pope appears to be. JMHO of course. Perhaps I am wrong. We shall see in June.
  #920  
Old 02-19-2015, 09:09 PM
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Yeah, I personally think it'll be super convenient to see if I need to cut some narrow-minded royal families out of my interests. Though I highly doubt it. To me, it will be almost scandalous if the royal attendance at the very least doesn't match Madeleine's wedding considering that CP is further up the line of succession than her. But oh well, at least I'll rejoice in my 99% certainty (and pride) that the Danish royal family will be there in large numbers
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