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  #521  
Old 08-03-2014, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
TBH,I find these stories of a shy man blossoming due to a strong wife slightly over-exagerated. It makes a nice story for female magazines but it can't be the truth. Overcoming shyness has more to do with maturing, getting more secure with your carreer/life etc. A wife plays some part in this but to credit f.e. Mathilde for any succes that her husband has, is not fair to him at all. WA was never a wall flower btw, but as he grew older he also became more comfortable in his role, as most people do.
I don't think CP's shyness is a problem perse, he just doesn't seem to bright and doesn't seem to have much to say. Which is fine and the generation of his great uncles were known for that too. When Dutch diplomats looked for a husband for Juliana the results were: they are only interested in fast women and cars. Not much changed.
The general tone of such a story may be a bit over-exaggerated, but a solid partner can help in becoming more secure in the public area as some people just *do* need that kind of support.
I didn't mean to credit Mathilde for all of Philippe's success, but he has become a lot less "stiff" since he got married and especially since he became a father. Willem-Alexander was not stiff, but he has become more approachable since he married and became a father.

Maybe Carl Philip has that image because he has only now found his path in life? Some people come around at a much later age than their peers. BTW: why would he not be that bright?
And a very high level of sensitivity doesn't decrease once a person gets older and matures, he or she just has to learn to deal with it in ways that work for him/her.
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  #522  
Old 08-03-2014, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
TBH,I find these stories of a shy man blossoming due to a strong wife slightly over-exagerated. It makes a nice story for female magazines but it can't be the truth. Overcoming shyness has more to do with maturing, getting more secure with your carreer/life etc. A wife plays some part in this but to credit f.e. Mathilde for any succes that her husband has, is not fair to him at all. WA was never a wall flower btw, but as he grew older he also became more comfortable in his role, as most people do.
I don't think CP's shyness is a problem perse, he just doesn't seem to bright and doesn't seem to have much to say. Which is fine and the generation of his great uncles were known for that too. When Dutch diplomats looked for a husband for Juliana the results were: they are only interested in fast women and cars. Not much changed.
This!

Even before Sofia entered his life, this is the impression I got from CP and even more now. That's why I was never a big fan of the Emma Pernauld relationship, she seemed to have so much more on the ball than he did and I could not understand it.

CP reminds me of a flamingo....wonderful to look at, but completely useless otherwise.

My hope-my prayer-is that after the wedding he and his wife go to live in their lavishly renovated villa rarely to be seen or heard from again. That sort of life probably holds no appeal for someone like SH, but the face and image of the SRF in the future needs to be CP Victoria and her family, imo.
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  #523  
Old 08-03-2014, 02:35 PM
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My hope-my prayer-is that after the wedding he and his wife go to live in their lavishly renovated villa rarely to be seen or heard from again. That sort of life probably holds no appeal for someone like SH, but the face and image of the SRF in the future needs to be CP Victoria and her family, imo.
I agree. While I am willing to go with the wedding and what I expect really is a thrill for Sofia (would be for anyone, after all) I do not find her appealing. Can't put my finger on it. I waffle between thinking her 'sweet' or 'calculating'. She is attractive enough in a distinctive kind of way, but not enough to paper over the disquiet one feels looking at her. Just my experience.

I do think Carl Philipp loves her and she him. That's great. He'll be happy. I do believe they do suit each other. (Emma was done a favor). But I also think that she should be Mrs Bernadotte and be willing to retire into a behind-the-scenes life. I think Chris has set a precedent that one could hope might impact Sofia's choices, but I don't think we should hold our breath on that one.

Sofia will grab at the brass ring - become a Princess, or at least a Countess - and be very much front-and-center at SRF events. She will further put herself forward with her charity work. I suspect that Sofia will always be a scene stealer (with the press' cooperation) - very unlike Chris. For this alone I think the King should be cautious regarding just how much latitude he gives Sofia. He needs to consider his heir, his daughter Victoria - though in that, too, the mere contrast will serve to bolster Victoria rather than be to her detriment. JMO.
  #524  
Old 08-03-2014, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
TBH,I find these stories of a shy man blossoming due to a strong wife slightly over-exagerated. It makes a nice story for female magazines but it can't be the truth. Overcoming shyness has more to do with maturing, getting more secure with your carreer/life etc. A wife plays some part in this but to credit f.e. Mathilde for any succes that her husband has, is not fair to him at all. WA was never a wall flower btw, but as he grew older he also became more comfortable in his role, as most people do.
I don't think CP's shyness is a problem perse, he just doesn't seem to bright and doesn't seem to have much to say. Which is fine and the generation of his great uncles were known for that too. When Dutch diplomats looked for a husband for Juliana the results were: they are only interested in fast women and cars. Not much changed.
Well said, I totally agree. The change I have seen on Carl Philip with Sofia at this engagement announcement, their being in Båstad and partying in St. Maxime and Ibiza, isn't into a good direction. Carl Philip is turning into being a celebrity, not a member of the royal family. The swedish press told that at Båstad Carl Philip and Sofia were seen with Hugh Grant. No photo of that, possibly because of Grant. But also no photo of them with 91-year old countess Gunnila Bernadotte who was watching the same final. At the publishing of the engagement Carl Philip totally forgot his position at the royal family, everything was way too big with kisses and waves from the balcony. And in southern France he looked like a celebrity who loves to be photographed by the paparazzis. I don't think that Carl Philip has ever been shy, I think that he is weak and needs a strong woman. Emma was a strong woman, but she realised that Carl Philip wasn't the right man for her. To me it seems like Carl Philip is now rebelling against everything he has had to obey so far, the royal etiquette and the respect towards his family members. And with Sofia he feels he can do that. Maybe he has always wanted to be like this. If that is the case, he should resign from his title and live the life he really wants.
  #525  
Old 08-04-2014, 05:25 AM
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TBH,I don't think it is the responsibility of a partner to 'change' somebody. People are the way they are and they seldom change. Perhaps he chose a partner that accepted his present lifestyle, which seems without any focus at all. Just a party here, a party there, crashing a car every now and then, and 'designing'/copying a few things and that is that. Of all spares he seems to be the one who has the least focus at present. Most others -also his younger sister- have a normal carreer or found a niche on which they can focus. For all my objections to Sofia H., she at least has PP in which she will possibly continue to participate in some way. This doesn't seem the case for CP.

If married life and possibly some children will change this remains to be seen, but let's hope it will. The lack of focus reminds me a bit of Belgium's prince Laurent, who later in life seemed to be troubled by this lack of purpose and the lack of having something useful to do. I am sure the lifestyle is appealing while he is still young(-ish), but when he turns into a peacock without feathers, the emptiness must get rather frustrating and sad (think of Pss Margaret).

I am not sure if it is entirely his own doing btw. Was he ever expected to find his own way in life, like the Dutch princes Constantijn and Friso? Was he expected to find a niche, like for example the Duke of York? Or were there no expectations at all?
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  #526  
Old 08-04-2014, 11:47 AM
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The past is another country, and we are all strangers there! Sofia has moved on!

Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was the making of Prince Albert, in 1923, and I'm hoping Sofia will do the same for Carl Philip, and surprise everyone!
  #527  
Old 08-05-2014, 06:28 AM
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My very middle class parents would have had a complete meltdown if my younger brother had introduced a Sofia Hellqvist into our family.[/QUOTE]


your family would had been right....I actually think also the king and Queen had exactely the same reaction..
  #528  
Old 08-05-2014, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by angieuk View Post
The past is another country, and we are all strangers there! Sofia has moved on!

Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was the making of Prince Albert, in 1923, and I'm hoping Sofia will do the same for Carl Philip, and surprise everyone!
Does Carl Philip actually need any "making"? He is incomparable with Prince Albert back in 1923. He is not shy, introvert or unsecure nor is suffering any speech impediments...

  #529  
Old 08-05-2014, 06:49 AM
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I am not convinced that royals marring a non royal should be considered weird now a days. monarchies should not be cristallized in time and the evolution of our society makes the difference shrink between royals and non royals. 200 years ago only royals could get access to education, money and all the rest so it was normal that people from that origin married equal status.

now a days the situations is different of course, but I still think one should make some differences. Kate middleton for instance is perfect for her role and everybody loves her. nobody can say she has a troubled past or she is not fit for the role. she has education, a certain family behind etc, etc. so is the commoner Rania of Jordan, the commoner queen maxima, Mary of Danmark, prince Daniel of Sweden and so on.
they all fit their role brilliantly.

but Sophia Hellqvist??? she has such a troubled past that is really unbelievable that she might fit for the role! don't get me wrong I don't think that she might not be a good girl. but I do think that in making our decisions we should then deal with the consequences.
royal houses should serve as a good example! they should embody some kind of traditions and valour! it's not a question of marrying a commoner or royal. the thing is marrying somebody that could serve as a good example to the subjects. somebody with education, traditions and royal characteristics royal or not.
it is just that a stripper becoming the sister in law of the future queen it's a scandal and a threat to the monarchy.
  #530  
Old 08-05-2014, 07:11 AM
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I would hope that "middle class families" can also be able to look at a person's present behavior and not be blinded by someone's past.
If not, I'd rather not belong to that family at all or at least have my (future) spouse stick up for me.
It is only natural that one wants the best for the son or daughter. I am sure that also your parents would jump in the air when you come with a promising young man or woman, having good prospects in life than with someone without these prospects. It is only natural. If even "middle class" families look that way, then it is strange to see that "royal" families seems to have thrown all standards out of the window.
  #531  
Old 08-05-2014, 08:58 AM
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Of course parents have an opion on their future son or daughter-in-law. But they have no power to overrule their children's choices (at least not in the western world). If parents disapprove of their children's choice, they basically have two options:
a) fight against it and risk family disruption and estrangement from their own child
b) try to make the best out of the situation and make an effort to integrate the in-law

To me it looks like the King and Queen opted for b.

Of course we don't know for sure how their majesties feel about Sophia, because the family is wise enough to keep certain things private.
  #532  
Old 08-05-2014, 09:17 AM
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Of course we don't know for sure how their majesties feel about Sophia, because the family is wise enough to keep certain things private.
I think some posters are upset about the fact that Daniel wasn't included in the family that easily, there were objections, some powerful gestures done by the King, showing that Daniel wasn't exactly welcome for many years. Even at the engagement, there was a very, very awkward interview, especially the King seemed uncomfortable and stiff with Daniel, and even today you have to look very closely to find (if at all) both interacting warmly with each other.
Very different with Sofia, so I don't think that the family is keeping everything private, gestures or body language doesnt lie (eg the King quite animated at the engagement of CP&S, Sofia vacationing with the Kings on the same boat a year before engagement etc).

Other than that CP is a grown man, there is no way the parents still tell him what to do or who to marry and as I have outlined above, there don't seem to be any objections at least from the King. Silvia is the type to bear and grin, not only in this situation.
  #533  
Old 08-05-2014, 09:42 AM
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I see your point, DoM.

Maybe I'm speculating too much, but I think that the King has learned from all the criticism over how Daniel was treated. So he possibly decided on option b earlier than he did with Victoria & Daniel. And to me the body language at the CP & S engagement interview appeared awkward as well.

But whatever their private feelings might or might not be, it is crystal clear that Sofia is publicly approved by the family. They are willing to treat her as a full member of the Royal Family, whether some posters like that or not. I don't think that there is the slightest chance that she will become side-lined as Mrs. Bernadotte or somthing like that.
  #534  
Old 08-05-2014, 12:04 PM
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The King is the very last person to object anyway. He himself threw his House's requirements out of the window, so he has no any stance against his children.
  #535  
Old 08-05-2014, 12:58 PM
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I think some posters are upset about the fact that Daniel wasn't included in the family that easily, there were objections, some powerful gestures done by the King, showing that Daniel wasn't exactly welcome for many years. Even at the engagement, there was a very, very awkward interview, especially the King seemed uncomfortable and stiff with Daniel, and even today you have to look very closely to find (if at all) both interacting warmly with each other.
We should take all of that in context: what father is totally overjoyed with his beloved eldest daughter's choice of mate? Especially in this case - with one's heir to monarchy - other factors could have supervened - potentially the King feeling Victoria was being used by someone unworthy of her, maybe someone 'ambitious' in the worst sense, though that is unlikely.

I do recall stories reporting that Daniel was apparently totally silent in the presence of Victoria's family - literally was unable to converse - with the King wondering how Daniel would be able to handle a public life, requiring an ability to engage in small talk and put other's at their ease. Clearly, Daniel has demonstrated success in this area - but when the King first met Daniel we can assume that Daniel was hiding his light under a bushel. The King rightly despaired for Vistoria's monarchy with such a consort.

Yet, the story Victoria tells is that her father told her to make her choice based on love and private life considerations - since the monarchy was never a certainty. That sounds like a very pragmatic father. As for maybe being uncomfortable with his daughter's choice on a personal level - well, wouldn't be the first time that story's been told, not so?
  #536  
Old 08-05-2014, 01:02 PM
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It is not weird that a King has second thoughts about a fitness instructor becoming spouse to a Queen and father to a future Heir.
  #537  
Old 08-05-2014, 01:14 PM
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It is not weird that a King has second thoughts about a fitness instructor becoming spouse to a Queen and father to a future Heir.
I wish I could find the quote but the King was suggesting more - he questioned the caliber of Daniels's intelligence. It was not evident for the King, a businessman notwithstanding - that there was any 'there' there. A reason to be concerned - no matter how much love - for the reason you cite.

Except for one or two brides in recent, and not so recent, years, most commoner brides have been individuals of considerable intellect and career achievement in their own right. Queen Letizia comes to mind. Even Madelaine's first choice was intelligent, as is Chris, her now husband. It can also be argued that Sofia is no dumb bunny. She is probably well spoken and charming. She definitely possesses the skill-set (particularly in confidence) needed to be a public figure.

Daniel? I think the King was worried he was looking at a dim bulb. Daniel wasn't going out of his way to try to impress his possible in-laws. Pardoxically, Daniel's very silence was an indication of his high character rather than evidence of low IQ and dismal social skills.
  #538  
Old 08-05-2014, 01:22 PM
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We should take all of that in context: what father is totally overjoyed with his beloved eldest daughter's choice of mate? Especially in this case - with one's heir to monarchy - other factors could have supervened - potentially the King feeling Victoria was being used by someone unworthy of her, maybe someone 'ambitious' in the worst sense, though that is unlikely.

I do recall stories reporting that Daniel was apparently totally silent in the presence of Victoria's family - literally was unable to converse - with the King wondering how Daniel would be able to handle a public life, requiring an ability to engage in small talk and put other's at their ease. Clearly, Daniel has demonstrated success in this area - but when the King first met Daniel we can assume that Daniel was hiding his light under a bushel. The King rightly despaired for Vistoria's monarchy with such a consort.

Yet, the story Victoria tells is that her father told her to make her choice based on love and private life considerations - since the monarchy was never a certainty. That sounds like a very pragmatic father. As for maybe being uncomfortable with his daughter's choice on a personal level - well, wouldn't be the first time that story's been told, not so?
Daniel's friends have told many times that Daniel has all his life been very social, even if he didn't use hardly at all alcohol or beer at the parties like his friends, because of the problem with his kidneys, which he found out when he was sixteen. One of Daniel's friends told at the TV-documentary, that Daniel could hold a conversation course to anyone, anytime, he has never had trouble of discussing with people. Also Victoria said at the documentary that Daniel is a very easy person to be with, she thinks that most of the people think like that. And we have seen from various videos and photos that Daniel is a very eager conversationalist. It must be in his nature, one can not learn all that. The press chef of the former president of Finland had seen Daniel in 2007 at his gym where he introduced the gym to her entourage and held a lecture of a healthy way of life and exercising. The press chef said that she was very impressed about how Daniel spoke and how self-confident he was.

I think that the king's problem with Daniel is that he wanted Victoria to marry a noble man or a son of his friends. The king is a little snobbish and doesn't want to admit that someone from the middle class, a self-made man, can be a better husband to his daughter than the sons of some of his rich friends. And the king was possibly worried about Daniel's illness, which was nonsense, because he had doctors to tell him all about it. Of course it is different to be the husband of the future queen than the wife of the prince third in line to the succession. But there hasn't been headlines like "the stripper sister-in-law for the first time at Victoria's birthday" or "Sofia Hellqvist, the good girls go to heaven and the bad to the royal court of Sweden" of Daniel.
  #539  
Old 08-05-2014, 01:35 PM
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Daniel's friends have told many times that Daniel has all his life been very social, even if he didn't use hardly at all alcohol or beer at the parties like his friends, because of the problem with his kidneys, which he found out when he was sixteen. One of Daniel's friends told at the TV-documentary, that Daniel could hold a conversation course to anyone, anytime, he has never had trouble of discussing with people. Also Victoria said at the documentary that Daniel is a very easy person to be with, she thinks that most of the people think like that. And we have seen from various videos and photos that Daniel is a very eager conversationalist. It must be in his nature, one can not learn all that. The press chef of the former president of Finland had seen Daniel in 2007 at his gym where he introduced the gym to her entourage and held a lecture of a healthy way of life and exercising. The press chef said that she was very impressed about how Daniel spoke and how self-confident he was.

I think that the king's problem with Daniel is that he wanted Victoria to marry a noble man or a son of his friends. The king is a little snobbish and doesn't want to admit that someone from the middle class, a self-made man, can be a better husband to his daughter than the sons of some of his rich friends. And the king was possibly worried about Daniel's illness, which was nonsense, because he had doctors to tell him all about it. Of course it is different to be the husband of the future queen than the wife of the prince third in line to the succession. But there hasn't been headlines like "the stripper sister-in-law for the first time at Victoria's birthday" or "Sofia Hellqvist, the good girls go to heaven and the bad to the royal court of Sweden" of Daniel.
Thanks for this Lady Finn. I do recall that quote I mentioned attributed to the King nested in a news story about why Daniel was hitting head-winds with the King. Dunno. Maybe it was just spin. Maybe Daniel sensed the King's animus and decided silence was the better part of valor in the situation - less said the better. It was a no-win with the King.
  #540  
Old 08-05-2014, 01:46 PM
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It is simply the idea that a fitness instructor wins the heart of Sweden's future Queen. It took quite time to absorb that idea. That is all, I think.
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