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  #261  
Old 05-15-2016, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The painpoint was the retroactivity. Imagine that that Parliament decides that only children of a King or a Heir(ess) have the title HRH Prince (Princess) of Sweden. This in an attempt to downsize the number of people who have that position.

When they do this retro-actively: "Sorry Alexander, sorry Leonore, sorry Nicholas... you are no longer a Prince (Princess) of Sweden, you lose your prefix HRH, goodbye" then Prince Carl Philip or Princess Madeleine would most likely feel equally upset about this, as their father felt when, back then, the Crown Prince was stripped from his position.

When Parliament announces that they want to change things "but with respect to the existing positions" then Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine most likely will feel lesser objections because that is an elegant solution with respect for their children Prince Alexander, Princess Leonore and Prince Nicholas.

I am sure King Carl XVI Gustaf is proud on his daughter but indeed, as he is also the Pater Familias and head of the royal dynasty, I can imagine he has an attachment to his son, as many fathers have. It is only natural. He sees his flesh and blood, he sees himself in his son. Of course he will see himself too in Victoria and Madeleine but everyone knows that father-son relations often have another character than father-daughter relations.
When the law was changed there was a conservative government in charge and a conservative majority in parliament. Conservative politicians have alway been pro monarchy in Sweden so it's difficult to see the change in the succession law as a way to hurt Carl Gustav and for sure it was't intented to damage Carl Philip who was only a baby at tht time.
When the process in the change of the law began, they coudn't know if there would have been a male heir. As in the case of the 4 older sisters of Carl Gustav, they were afraid that only girls would be born also in consideration of the fact that Queen Silvia was already 35-36. With the previous law (a salic law) this would have meant the end of the monarchy. It was no coincidence that the social democratic party, a notoriously feminist but anti monarchic party, was firmly against the law change. And this was quite paradoxical.
So one could accuse them of excessive concern or lack of confidence in the royal couple'ability to have a male heir but for sure there was no intention to hurt or offend anyone. Actually, in a certain way, they were more royalist than the king himself!
I frankly think that this was only a typical case of bad timing and "best intentions that turn into something unexpected".
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  #262  
Old 05-15-2016, 09:18 AM
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At the end of the day the change in the succession law has been in place for almost thirty-seven years; and there has been no government or voter calls to have Victoria removed as crown princess and have Carl Philip re-instated as heir apparent. Victoria's popularity may be a contributing factor for this. Aftonbladet did an opinion poll a year ago about the popularity of members of the SRF (current and incoming at the time) and who serves Sweden best as its representative suggests that:

Victoria är kungen – av kungligheter | Nyheter | Aftonbladet

A more current poll with the same questions would be a good gauge of public sentiment now.
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  #263  
Old 05-15-2016, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Madame Verseau View Post
At the end of the day the change in the succession law has been in place for almost thirty-seven years; and there has been no government or voter calls to have Victoria removed as crown princess and have Carl Philip re-instated as heir apparent. Victoria's popularity may be a contributing factor for this.

[...]
That has nothing to do with Crown Princess Victoria. That has everything to do with the general phenomenon that when a new step has been legalized it is seldom or never turned back in the European context.

When same gender-marriages are given the right to marry, then that is a fait-accompli. No any other following Government will undo this change.

When the age for having the right to vote (and being elected) is set on 18 years, or 16 years even, then that is a fait-accompli. No any other following Government will undo this change.

When the Spanish Government finally changes the succession in order of firstborn, regardless the gender, then that is a fait-accompli. No any other following Spanish Government will undo this change.

Unlike in Norway (change of succession), unlike in the Netherlands and Belgium (changes of the Royal House Act), the changes in Sweden did not respect the existing positions. Crown Prince Carl Philip was born Heir and Crown Prince according the Swedish Constitution which was in force. Later that Constitution was changed, but with retro-active working. That was the painpoint.

Imagine that a new Swedish Parliament changes its mind on the junior lines being Princes of Sweden. And that they decide -with retroactive workings- that Prince Alexander, Princess Leonore and Prince Nicholas loose their title(s) and prefixes.... Exactly the same unpleasant and unelegant situation. Of course Parliament has every right to change its mind on existing situations. All European monarchies have done so, but all have considered the existing situation as it was as a given fact because of existing legislation and have not changed it with retro-active workings.
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  #264  
Old 05-15-2016, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Madame Verseau View Post
At the end of the day the change in the succession law has been in place for almost thirty-seven years; and there has been no government or voter calls to have Victoria removed as crown princess and have Carl Philip re-instated as heir apparent. Victoria's popularity may be a contributing factor for this. Aftonbladet did an opinion poll a year ago about the popularity of members of the SRF (current and incoming at the time) and who serves Sweden best as its representative suggests that:

Victoria är kungen – av kungligheter | Nyheter | Aftonbladet

A more current poll with the same questions would be a good gauge of public sentiment now.
I agree. But it seem that there is still resentment in Carl Gustav for what has happened and it's quite puzzling that, after so many years as you say, he hasn't been able to get over it.
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  #265  
Old 05-15-2016, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
That has nothing to do with Crown Princess Victoria. That has everything to do with the general phenomenon that when a new step has been legalized it is seldom or never turned back in the European context.

When same gender-marriages are given the right to marry, then that is a fait-accompli. No any other following Government will undo this change.

When the age for having the right to vote (and being elected) is set on 18 years, or 16 years even, then that is a fait-accompli. No any other following Government will undo this change.

When the Spanish Government finally changes the succession in order of firstborn, regardless the gender, then that is a fait-accompli. No any other following Spanish Government will undo this change.

Unlike in Norway (change of succession), unlike in the Netherlands and Belgium (changes of the Royal House Act), the changes in Sweden did not respect the existing positions. Crown Prince Carl Philip was born Heir and Crown Prince according the Swedish Constitution which was in force. Later that Constitution was changed, but with retro-active working. That was the painpoint.

Imagine that a new Swedish Parliament changes its mind on the junior lines being Princes of Sweden. And that they decide -with retroactive workings- that Prince Alexander, Princess Leonore and Prince Nicholas loose their title(s) and prefixes.... Exactly the same unpleasant and unelegant situation. Of course Parliament has every right to change its mind on existing situations. All European monarchies have done so, but all have considered the existing situation as it was as a given fact because of existing legislation and have not changed it with retro-active workings.
That comparison is poor at best.

The comparison would be if before Madeleine and CP had children, the parliament announced its intention to remove titled and prefixes from younger grandchildren. And then CG went ahead and gave them anyways.

The change in succession was NOT retroactive. It was dated to when the process started. Like in the UK with their lengthy process, it applies to children born before the law is officially passed. The Swedish parliament started the process before Victoria was even born. CG was well aware even before Victoria was born, that the change was coming. By the time CP was born he knew it was in the final stages. He had no reason to be surprised.

Besides the HRH and titles are decided by the king, not parliament. It was CG who decided who got what.


It was out of practical terms that the law needed changing. Until CP was born, the one and only heir to the throne was Bertil, the king's Uncle, who would not have children. Even Victoria was not in line. With a queen in her mid thirties, they couldn't risk her giving them no male heirs.
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  #266  
Old 05-15-2016, 12:21 PM
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I think I have missed some information in this discussion.The fact that the King is upset that CP is not the heir apparent seems to come up in a lot of the discussion on the forums related to the SRF. I have not read or seen any evidence that this is in fact true(but I am fairly new to the discussion). Are these comments just speculation or is there hard evidence that CG is not in favor of Princess Victoria being his successor? I just see a very united family supporting each other in their roles,which are very demanding IMHO.
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  #267  
Old 05-15-2016, 01:02 PM
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Back in 2003 the king made some statements during an interview:

Quote:
I would prefer that my son Carl Philip is my successor, and Im sure that the majority of the Swedish people would prefer to have a king on the throne.
No mention of his son being stripped, simply a preference of his and he assumed the people of Sweden, for a king instead. Interesting considering it was the parliament acting for the people who changed it.

Both the queen and king are on record as saying a man is better suited. A woman will be distracted with the role of being a mother and raising children, and it would be hard to balance both roles. A king would not have such problems.
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  #268  
Old 05-15-2016, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Both the queen and king are on record as saying a man is better suited. A woman will be distracted with the role of being a mother and raising children, and it would be hard to balance both roles. A king would not have such problems.
It is true but back to the 20th century. Nowadays, the man in the family also raises his children, I've seen couples who both work but also both clean the house and cook, including the husband. The stereotype that the women is always at home and just make babies and raise them is pretty much outdated in the 21st century.

Even though CG said he prefered his son over his daughter to be the successor, because man are more suited for the role, I'm quite surprised he didn't look to his cousin Queen Margrethe of Denmark or Queen Beatrix of The Netherlands. They were and are (in case for QM) capable queens who were not inferior than man and they managed to be KING of their people. He had examples of ruling women so close by and still said that, such a shame.
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  #269  
Old 05-15-2016, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Back in 2003 the king made some statements during an interview:



No mention of his son being stripped, simply a preference of his and he assumed the people of Sweden, for a king instead. Interesting considering it was the parliament acting for the people who changed it.

Both the queen and king are on record as saying a man is better suited. A woman will be distracted with the role of being a mother and raising children, and it would be hard to balance both roles. A king would not have such problems.
I heard about that quote, and seeing it is just...wrong. One, the Aftonbladet poll shows the people that were polled doesn't share the king's sentiment, otherwise the percentages for popularity and best rep for Sweden would be reversed for Victoria and Carl Philip. Also I haven't seen anything from that time that voters were demanding the members of the Riksdag to be voted out because of the change of the law. And I agree with Kathie Sophia, in 2016 both parents share the equal load. Recently there was an article that Carl Philip is taking paternity leave. Now it looks bad if the consort and the nannies are left with the child-rearing.
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  #270  
Old 05-15-2016, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Back in 2003 the king made some statements during an interview:

Quote:
“I would prefer that my son Carl Philip is my successor, and I’m sure that the majority of the Swedish people would prefer to have a king on the throne.”
No mention of his son being stripped, simply a preference of his and he assumed the people of Sweden, for a king instead. Interesting considering it was the parliament acting for the people who changed it.

Both the queen and king are on record as saying a man is better suited. A woman will be distracted with the role of being a mother and raising children, and it would be hard to balance both roles. A king would not have such problems.
The irony is astounding that this is the same king who adopted the motto "For Sweden – With the times".

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Originally Posted by kathia_sophia View Post
Even though CG said he prefered his son over his daughter to be the successor, because man are more suited for the role, I'm quite surprised he didn't look to his cousin Queen Margrethe of Denmark or Queen Beatrix of The Netherlands. They were and are (in case for QM) capable queens who were not inferior than man and they managed to be KING of their people. He had examples of ruling women so close by and still said that, such a shame.
There's no getting around CG's chauvinistic and anachronistic comments but I suspect that from earliest childhood Carl Gustaf was strongly indoctrinated that males make better monarchs considering how much had to happen for him to come into existence and then get him to the place where he can take the throne, namely his parents having to keep producing children until they produced a child of the right gender, and then his Uncle Bertil making choices/sacrifices that kept him in the line of succession in case he was needed to serve as regent and/or spare.
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  #271  
Old 05-15-2016, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kathia_sophia View Post
It is true but back to the 20th century. Nowadays, the man in the family also raises his children, I've seen couples who both work but also both clean the house and cook, including the husband. The stereotype that the women is always at home and just make babies and raise them is pretty much outdated in the 21st century.

Even though CG said he prefered his son over his daughter to be the successor, because man are more suited for the role, I'm quite surprised he didn't look to his cousin Queen Margrethe of Denmark or Queen Beatrix of The Netherlands. They were and are (in case for QM) capable queens who were not inferior than man and they managed to be KING of their people. He had examples of ruling women so close by and still said that, such a shame.
Would add Elizabeth to the list.

It was understandable back in the day when Margrethe came to the throne, there may be concerns about a reigning queen. It was the mindset of those days in the mid 20th century. And unlike the Netherlands (who had queens since the 1890's) and the UK who had reigning queens in the past, Denmark didn't have a history.

But for such an attitude today? Women balance families and jobs just as well as men. With three reigning queens on the throne when CG made the comment, it is amazing he could still be so close minded. Being queen would make Victoria no less a mother. The only time she has to be away from her kids is on tours. If CP was king, Sofia would be no different, she would be expected to accompany him on tours and be away from her kids.
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  #272  
Old 05-15-2016, 05:01 PM
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I love the setting of these pictures. Historical backround looks wonderful and the colors provide very lovely spring feeling.
My favorites: Prince Carl Philip adoringly gazing down at the baby while touching his son's head and holding his hand around Sofia's waist and that picture with Carl Philip holding his son against his shoulder. Liked that the dog was also included in the photoshoot.
That's my favourite, too! They look so charmed with their beautiful baby boy. And I love the name they chose! I think it's great that all the siblings have given their babies a beautiful, individual and regal calling name and second and third names in honour of important persons in their lives.
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  #273  
Old 05-16-2016, 01:47 PM
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The reason that Daniel was not in the photos that were released of Prince Oscar with his mother and sister is because Daniel himself took the pictures.
small correction. the one of Oscar and Victoria was taken by a professional photographer. Daniel took the one of Estelle and Oscar
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  #274  
Old 05-16-2016, 02:03 PM
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Thanks for the correction.
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  #275  
Old 05-16-2016, 02:20 PM
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Don't underestimate the feelings for a male Heir. When in 1967 finally a prince was born in the Netherlands, the media was head over heels that finally a Prince of Orange has been born! In an interview in 1973 Queen Juliana said this furore about a boy had hit her: what did this explosion of joy say about her mother or she herself? We have moved on with times but these paternalistic feelings for a son are still widespread, all over the globe, in all cultures.
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  #276  
Old 05-16-2016, 02:29 PM
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Well if we were still in 1967 when most women were expected to be barefoot and pregnant by 20 and not have a job outside of the home, perhaps you'd have a valid point. Fortunately almost 50 years later, most of the world has moved beyond that misogynistic view. Of course the people of the Netherlands were excited, he was the first prince born in over a hundred years. That is exciting. Not that people were sick of queens in the Netherlands, but it was amazing and happy news.
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Old 05-16-2016, 02:43 PM
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Of course the people of the Netherlands were excited, he was the first prince born in over a hundred years. That is exciting. Not that people were sick of queens in the Netherlands, but it was amazing and happy news.
I agree, I think that it had much more to do with Willem-Alexander being a different gender than the previous three heirs/monarchs. I suspect that there will be a similar reaction in Britain when a female heir apparent is born.
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  #278  
Old 05-16-2016, 02:51 PM
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Don't underestimate the feelings for a male Heir. When in 1967 finally a prince was born in the Netherlands, the media was head over heels that finally a Prince of Orange has been born! In an interview in 1973 Queen Juliana said this furore about a boy had hit her: what did this explosion of joy say about her mother or she herself? We have moved on with times but these paternalistic feelings for a son are still widespread, all over the globe, in all cultures.
Because he was the first male offspring of the Family since over 100 years. If Queen's Wilhelmina and Juliana had sons there would have been not such an media spectacle.
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  #279  
Old 05-16-2016, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post

When the Spanish Government finally changes the succession in order of firstborn, regardless the gender, then that is a fait-accompli.
But the spanish Government did exact this when changiong the succession of noble Titles. For example in the House of Medina Celi the Heir was the oldest son but second child of the late Duchess. But with the change suddenly his older sister became the Heiress.
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  #280  
Old 05-16-2016, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kathia_sophia View Post
It is true but back to the 20th century. Nowadays, the man in the family also raises his children, I've seen couples who both work but also both clean the house and cook, including the husband. The stereotype that the women is always at home and just make babies and raise them is pretty much outdated in the 21st century.

Even though CG said he prefered his son over his daughter to be the successor, because man are more suited for the role, I'm quite surprised he didn't look to his cousin Queen Margrethe of Denmark or Queen Beatrix of The Netherlands. They were and are (in case for QM) capable queens who were not inferior than man and they managed to be KING of their people. He had examples of ruling women so close by and still said that, such a shame.
It's sad that C-G still occasionally talks about it because everytime he does , he turns himself into a big laughing joke here in Sweden. He angers his people and the media loves to use his conservative opinions as an excuse to remove the monarchy.

His motto "Fr Sverige - I Tiden" (For Sweden - In The Time" is discussable. He has indeed modernised the swedish royal court and it's rituals very much since the time of his grandfather Gustaf VI Adolf. Has he modernised himself ?
I think he tries to. The way he spoke to Crown Princess Victoria at her wedding and the way he spoke about Princess Madeleine recently (regretting to not being more at home not understanding that it was very hard for her when her parents were away) indicates that he now knows that he did wrong and he tries to repair what still can be repaired by being a good grandfather instead.

2003 is 13 years ago now. Hopefully he "knows better" today when all his 3 kids are parents and atleast Daniel and Carl-Philip takes paternity leave like all modern men.

Victoria will likely come to the throne when Estelle and Oscar are past their childhood years and won't have the same problem as Queen Margrethe II had when she became Queen and had to leave two kids aged 4 and 3 at home with a father who never wanted to be at home, wanted to be King himself and has spent almost his whole life to insult his wife in public.
There is no risk anyway that Daniel would ever behave like that.
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