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  #141  
Old 08-08-2007, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by principessa View Post
I think Maxima should get HM Queen Maxima of the Netherlands, when Willem-Alexander gets King of the Netherlands.
No one is forbidden to follow the tradition and to adress Máxima as 'De Prinses van Oranje' or, later, as 'De Koningin'.

The Court, the State and all official instutions however do follow the official style. It is always and ever 'Hunne Koninklijke Hoogheden de Prins van Oranje en prinses Máxima der Nederlanden'.

Never 'Hunne Koninklijke Hoogheden de Prins en Prinses van Oranje' as tradition wants. But you can do that, if you wants to keep the tradition alive.
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  #142  
Old 08-08-2007, 01:21 PM
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You can always call her 'The Queen' if you wants to

Quote:
Originally Posted by principessa View Post
I think Maxima should get HM Queen Maxima of the Netherlands, when Willem-Alexander gets King of the Netherlands.
No one is forbidden to follow the tradition and to adress Máxima as 'de Prinses van Oranje' or, later, as 'de Koningin'.

The Court, the State and all official instutions however do follow the official style.
It is always and ever 'de Prins van Oranje en prinses Máxima der Nederlanden'.

Never 'de Prins en Prinses van Oranje' as tradition wants. But you can do that, if you wants to keep the tradition alive. Also in the future, if they follow the Royal House Act 2002 and treat all Consorts the same, be it male or female.
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  #143  
Old 08-08-2007, 02:12 PM
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Lalla Salma even has no title at all.
Isn't she a Princess with the style of Royal Highness?
  #144  
Old 08-08-2007, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess Robijn View Post
Isn't she a Princess with the style of Royal Highness?
Lalla' is comparable with the Italian 'Donna' or the English 'Lady', I have understood. She does have the predicate 'Sa Altesse Royale' however, indicating her status.

The official site uses for the King and his family:

Sa Majesté le Roi Mohammed VI
Sa Altesse Royale Lalla Salma, épouse du Roi
Son Altesse Royale le Prince Moulay Hassan
Sa Altesse Royale Lalla Khadija

On Wikipedia it is claimed that she was granted the title 'Princess'. But the official site says just 'Lalla'. Like the other ladies (Lalla Meryem, Lalla Asma, Lalla Hasna).
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  #145  
Old 08-20-2007, 09:37 PM
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I have a feeling that this is one of those cases where something is lost in translation. I would be willing to bet that Lalla is simply one of those words whose meaning can not be accurately translated, and so we end up with a best possible translation.
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  #146  
Old 08-21-2007, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Empress View Post
I have a feeling that this is one of those cases where something is lost in translation. I would be willing to bet that Lalla is simply one of those words whose meaning can not be accurately translated, and so we end up with a best possible translation.
Lalla does mean Princess,nothing else,that is all.It really does.Not a Lady nor a Donna,Princess.It is us westerners that are wrong in thinking Lalla is a first name,but in Lalla land it is a Princess.You just lost your bet...

(Btw,it is Lalla Salma's hubby's 44th birthday today)
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  #147  
Old 08-21-2007, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by lucien View Post
Lalla does mean Princess,nothing else,that is all.It really does.Not a Lady nor a Donna,Princess.It is us westerners that are wrong in thinking Lalla is a first name,but in Lalla land it is a Princess.You just lost your bet...

(Btw,it is Lalla Salma's hubby's 44th birthday today)
Lalla is definitely no Princess. It means something as 'the (most) revered Dame' and that is closest to 'Lady' or 'Donna'.

So it is, litterally translated:

His Majesty King Mohammed VI
Her Royal Highness the (most) revered Dame Salma, spouse of The King
His Royal Highness Prince Moulay Hassan
Her Royal Highness the (most) revered Dame Khadija
and
Her Royal Highness the (most) revered Dame Meryem
Her Royal Highness the (most) revered Dame Asma
Her Royal Highness the (most) revered Dame Hasna
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  #148  
Old 01-31-2008, 09:40 AM
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So anyway, has there been any decision on this matter within the court or within the Netherlands? This just came up in the Camilla title thread, and I posted that I thought that Maxima would be titled Queen. Does anyone have any further news on the subject?
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  #149  
Old 01-31-2008, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empress View Post
So anyway, has there been any decision on this matter within the court or within the Netherlands? This just came up in the Camilla title thread, and I posted that I thought that Maxima would be titled Queen. Does anyone have any further news on the subject?
No decision has been taken,and the issue is simply not opportune.Máxima,no doubt in my mind,as well as many others,will be styled HM Queen Máxima once Alexander takes over.No one,really,no-one will oppose that.

Camilla,same story but I refrain from posting on that thread.She's entitled to be known as HM Queen Camilla.The brits better get used to it,and leave the false emotions where they belong,in the dustbin.Al that "what if " bruhaha is really a lot of noice about absolutely nothing by a handfull on the forum that do not matter in that decision at all.Sorry..
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  #150  
Old 02-01-2008, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucien View Post
No decision has been taken,and the issue is simply not opportune.Máxima,no doubt in my mind,as well as many others,will be styled HM Queen Máxima once Alexander takes over.No one,really,no-one will oppose that.

Camilla,same story but I refrain from posting on that thread.She's entitled to be known as HM Queen Camilla.The brits better get used to it,and leave the false emotions where they belong,in the dustbin.Al that "what if " bruhaha is really a lot of noice about absolutely nothing by a handfull on the forum that do not matter in that decision at all.Sorry..

Well said on both counts!
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  #151  
Old 03-07-2012, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Henri M. View Post
With other words: the Royal House Act 2002 has excluded the titles 'King of the Netherlands' and 'Prince of Orange' to be shared by the female spouse. Because these are the only noble title on which is not exclusively be inherited by issue from a male descendant only, as is the case with all other noble titles in the Netherlands.
Sorry to bring that up again, but I'm still not convinced that Maxima will not be queen.

That is how I understand the Act of 2002.
It wanted to make clear who is a member of the Royal House in his or her own right, who can become a member, what will happen if one ceases to be a member. Plus which member has which title in his own right.

New is that there is no difference between male or female children. New is that the spouse of the souverain and of the heir apparent can be created a Prince or Princess in his or her own right. This mean they are full members with their own title and rank.

It's not like in Britain where except Prince Philip who was created a prince of the UK in his own right, all female spouses are only called by their husband's title and style out of courtesy but don't possess them personally - in their own right.

Princess Maxima on her marriage became a real member of the Royal House and was given the title of a princess in her own right. As long as she stays married (and becoming a widow is treated equally, as long as the widow doesn't remarry) she is a member in her own right.

So - this is good. But where in the Act does it say that the old traditional ways of sharing a husband's rank, style and title (name) are abolished? As the Netherland still have an aristocracy, there must be a law about sharing rank on marriage, no? Or is it accepted "Common law"-tradition? In any case there must be a formal way to handle this as there are ranks and titles in the Netherlands besides the Royal ones and thus there must be rules for the marriage of females to the holders of such rank and titles. Be it in the family laws or somewhere else, these have to exist somewhere.
Can someone of our Dutch members help with that?

Does it say somewhere in the Act of 2002 that these rules do not longer apply for Royals? Because if not, they form a parallel law to this Act. There is a hint that this is the case because all spouses of the sons of queen Beatrix became "Jonkrouw van Amsberg" on marriage, because they married a "Jonkheer van Amsberg". if there wasn't a rule for sharing the husband's rank, then they wouldn't become a "Jonkrouw" (a "noblewoman") but a Mevrouw ("married woman"). Or not?

So the Act of 2002 only covers Maxima's title and position of a member of the Ryaol House which includes "ministerial responsibility" as the homepage of the Royal House says. It does not cover her right to share her husband's rank and titles.

Of course at the moment her own personal rank as a Princess of the Netherlands is higher than the rank as spouse of her husband The Prince of Orange. Thus she is named not by her courtesy style as Princess of Orange but by her own which obviously gives her more than just a courtesy position in the constitution of the Netherlands.

It will be different when Willem-Alexander becomes king. She will still be a Princess of the Netherlands then, just like her husband still is a Prince, too. But then her courtesy rank of her husband's queen and her share of his title of "Majesty" probably outranks her own personal title as a Princess. No?

I understood the government's position as quoted some pages earlier as follows: At the moment Maxima is the Princess of the Netherlands and will stay that even after her husband's accession. It will be decided when the need arises on the accession of king Willem-Alexander if her own personal title or her courtesy title of Queen will become her official title.

But people of the Netherlands can call her queen if they so want because by courtesy she will be her husband's queen anyway.

Is that correct?
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  #152  
Old 03-07-2012, 05:47 AM
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I start a new post because otherwise my post would get too long.

I just found a German article on the reform of the Dutch family laws of 1998 and especially of the Dutch law on nobility.

See here: http://arno.unimaas.nl/show.cgi?fid=4791

According to § 9 a.F.BW. a woman who marries has a right to use her husband's name as family name and to share his noble rank and title. That doesn't mean that she becomes a noble herself but she is treated like one officially and her children with her husband are noble by birth.

Interestingly the new law allows the same thing (sharing the title and rank of one's spouse) for the spouses of noble women as well as for spouses in a registered lifepartnership.

So officially according to this law Amalia's husband, once she is The Princess of Orange, can share her title and can become officially The Prince of Orange.... Of course his onw title as a Prince of the Netherlands will be higher then. As it is at the moment for Princess Maxima.

I wonder if he can become king by courtesy as well?
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  #153  
Old 03-07-2012, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Sorry to bring that up again, but I'm still not convinced that Maxima will not be queen.
Maxima will be Queen.
In 2011 the Dutch parliament confirmed that when Prince Willem-Alexander ascends to the Throne, Princess Maxima will indeed bear the style and title and Her Majesty The Queen Consort of the Netherlands.
  #154  
Old 03-07-2012, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Maxima will be Queen.
In 2011 the Dutch parliament confirmed that when Prince Willem-Alexander ascends to the Throne, Princess Maxima will indeed bear the style and title and Her Majesty The Queen Consort of the Netherlands.
I wasn't aware of that - that's good news! Thank you for the information, Artemisia.
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  #155  
Old 03-07-2012, 01:21 PM
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I wasn't aware of that - that's good news! Thank you for the information, Artemisia.
You are welcome.
Your post was very interesting read. I am also very interested whether Amalia's husband will be King (Consort) or just Prince Consort. We will probably get the answer much sooner, when Victoria ascends to the Swedish Throne; if Daniel becomes her King Consort that will set precedence for spouses of other female Monarchs.
  #156  
Old 03-07-2012, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
You are welcome.
Your post was very interesting read. I am also very interested whether Amalia's husband will be King (Consort) or just Prince Consort. We will probably get the answer much sooner, when Victoria ascends to the Swedish Throne; if Daniel becomes her King Consort that will set precedence for spouses of other female Monarchs.
No, I don't think so. The Swedish language already has minted a word for Victoria and Daniel which makes clear that she is the Crown Princess and he her prince: Crown Princess Couple. Kronprinsessanparret. In a similar way they will become the Drottningparret - Queen Couple. Queen Victoria and her husband, prince Daniel. Honestly I don't see the need of a change here.

I really like the way the Dutchs have dealt with the problem of gender equality. For spouses (again: gender neutral) who marry a member if the Royal House, they get their own formal position and their own formal title. That is theirs, as long as they stay married or survive their spouse without a remarriage. According to the family law, they may share their spouse's rank and title but who's to say they have to? Isn't the easiest way to grant them their own place within the constitutional body of the Royal House and leave the rest to tradition or, if wanted, so leave it not to tradition?

Maxima is Princess Maxima of the Netherlands as well as
Maxima, Princess of "Willem of Oranje" or in short: The Princess of Oranje.
But once her husband will be king, it's a nice traditional thing to call her HM Queen Maxima of the Netherlands.

Amalia's husband, once she is heir apparent, will be Prince X of the Netherlands. He could be X, Prince of "Amalia of Oranje" or in short: The Prince of Oranje. But he doesn't have to use this title, as he has a perfectly fitting title of his own. So no need to use hers by courtesy, espceially as there is not tradition involved. The law says it's a right to use the spouse's title, not a necessity, after all.

I know that in Germany noble women either marry noble men or cease to use their titles after their marriage even though they could and could give it to their husbands. In the Netherlands the article said that the law of 1998 is contradictionary because it allows OTOH the spouses and even legal partners of noble women to use and share their spouses/partners title and rank but doesn't allow for the children of such marriages to become nobles by birth while even illegitimate children of noble men can be considered nobles... Gender equality? Hmmm....

The article mentioned a case where a son of a noble man and a noble woman (both noble by birth) decided to not go for his father's but for his mother's name - which is legal in The Netherlands. But he,e ven though both his parents were noble by birth, lost his nobility due to the fact that still children of noble women cannot inherit the nobility while even illegitimate children of noble fathers if they take on their father's name can.
What kind of law is that?

I wonder if there has been any legal judgment about a case concerning this?
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  #157  
Old 01-28-2013, 01:07 PM
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The prime minister refers in his speech to 'Queen Máxima'. So I guess this is settled.
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  #158  
Old 01-28-2013, 01:08 PM
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The prime minister refers in his speech to 'Queen Máxima'. So I guess this is settled.
Thought that was sorted in 2011?
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  #159  
Old 01-28-2013, 01:18 PM
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Thought that was sorted in 2011?
Yes it was. Here is the thread about it.
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  #160  
Old 01-28-2013, 01:30 PM
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The Princess will be known as HM Queen Máxima,
King Willem IV and Queen Máxima.
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