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  #121  
Old 07-12-2007, 06:16 PM
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I understand what you are saying Henri M. However I was simply replying to a previous post, which you will see if you will go back and read.
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  #122  
Old 07-13-2007, 04:31 AM
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I understand the reasons why the Dutch Parliament made the 2002 Law regarding this matter, but IMO, the whole notion of a "Princess Consort" is ridiculous! Hence, I believe Máxima should become Queen Máxima of the Netherlands upon her husband's succession to the throne (I also believe the Duchess of Cornwall should be Queen Camilla when Charles inherits, but that's OT ) IMO, the wife of the King should be titled Queen XX of Blah, regardless of past/future Sovereign Queens.
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  #123  
Old 07-13-2007, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JessRulz View Post
I understand the reasons why the Dutch Parliament made the 2002 Law regarding this matter, but IMO, the whole notion of a "Princess Consort" is ridiculous! Hence, I believe Máxima should become Queen Máxima of the Netherlands upon her husband's succession to the throne (I also believe the Duchess of Cornwall should be Queen Camilla when Charles inherits, but that's OT ) IMO, the wife of the King should be titled Queen XX of Blah, regardless of past/future Sovereign Queens.
But there is no consequence in that, with all respect.

We agree that the succession is now made equal for male and female successors, despite the centuries long tradition of male succession.

We agree that the style for female heiresses will be 'The Princess of Orange', despite the centuries long tradition of exclusive use for the eldest surviving son of the King or for the Stadtholder himself.

We agree that now to male and female royals the same honours will be given (equal gunsalute, equal drumrolls, equal escorte) despite the centuries long tradition that to male royals more honours were given while female royals had to accept a minor position.

We agree that no longer in the préséance at the court elder daughters are ranked lower than their younger brothers, despite the centuries long tradition.

But suddenly do not agree that the style for male and female consorts to the King and the Heir is made equal??? And here 'tradition' is used as an argument where it is waved away in the other examples?
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  #124  
Old 07-13-2007, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliana View Post
Does Maxima deserve to have the same title as her mother-in-law who actually does all the serious work of a monarch?
I wonder the same
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  #125  
Old 07-13-2007, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verde Esmeralda View Post
I wonder the same
Yep. IMO she should be Princess Maxima, Queen consort. Same as Prince Philip etc.
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  #126  
Old 07-14-2007, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Henri M. View Post
But there is no consequence in that, with all respect.

We agree that the succession is now made equal for male and female successors, despite the centuries long tradition of male succession.

We agree that the style for female heiresses will be 'The Princess of Orange', despite the centuries long tradition of exclusive use for the eldest surviving son of the King or for the Stadtholder himself.

We agree that now to male and female royals the same honours will be given (equal gunsalute, equal drumrolls, equal escorte) despite the centuries long tradition that to male royals more honours were given while female royals had to accept a minor position.

We agree that no longer in the préséance at the court elder daughters are ranked lower than their younger brothers, despite the centuries long tradition.

But suddenly do not agree that the style for male and female consorts to the King and the Heir is made equal??? And here 'tradition' is used as an argument where it is waved away in the other examples?
Times have changed, and the need for equality between male and female Heirs is necessary, I agree with you. But IMO, the spouse of the Soverign - be it male or female - should have the highest possible title they are entitled too, hence the wife of a King = Queen ..., the husband of a Queen = Prince ..., because they are the highest title available to them. I hope that made sense!
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  #127  
Old 07-14-2007, 05:47 AM
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I don't know what it is, but I just find the title of Princess Consort to be so...pretty. That may sound weird to most but there's something so incredibly feminine and unprecedented about it which, to me, makes it all the more appealing.

It's different and not commonly known on the continent which is perhaps why I also like the alternative.

I think many, who participated in the 'Title for Camilla' thread at the same time as I, perhaps thought my endorsement of this title for the Duchess was based on the circumstances one shall not endeavour to bring to surface here, but my only rationale for maintaining my support was for the exact reasons I have given above. It was in no way a slur on the Duchess.

If Maxima is to become a Princess Consort then a fine one I'm sure she shall make. Of course, if she became Queen my opinion remains the same
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  #128  
Old 07-14-2007, 08:19 AM
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Call me old fashioned but I think she should be Queen Maxima.
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  #129  
Old 07-14-2007, 08:44 AM
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May I ask how many others (If any! I may be a lone ranger yet again.lol.) hold no objection to the prospect of Maxima being known as The Princess Consort?

I know my reasons are more fanciful in that I have no greater opinion of it, other than I like it And compared to the more ethically based argument of sex equality (a never ending debate that shall continue long after we are gone) I'd very much like to hear other opinions, if obliged.
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  #130  
Old 07-14-2007, 08:49 AM
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I'm finding this discussion very difficult. As far as my knowledge goes the wife of a King is always a Queen (here in Spain anyway) So why wouldn't Maxima get the title of Queen? I get the argument on sex equality, but I believe the only reason husbands of the Queen never get to be King is because in that case everyone assumes it is the man who is the ruler and not his wife. I believe it is only done to make this distinction clear. In my opinion Maxima should be Queen.
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  #131  
Old 07-14-2007, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JessRulz View Post
But IMO, the spouse of the Soverign - be it male or female - should have the highest possible title they are entitled too, hence the wife of a King = Queen ..., the husband of a Queen = Prince ..., because they are the highest title available to them. I hope that made sense!
Isn't there a discrimination in that, regarding the Consorts?

Equal treatment regardless the gender, also in titulature, means:

His Majesty The King & Her Royal Highness The Princess of the Netherlands

Her Majesty The Queen & His Royal Highness The Prince of the Netherlands

For obvious and understandable reasons the Government did not opt for the possibility to make a future Daniel Westling or comparable marrying Princess Amalia 'The Prince of Orange' and later The King'.

I think that no one can deny that with this, not only the discrimination in gender (for the succession) but also the discrimination in titles (for equal spouses in equal circumstances) has been lifted.
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  #132  
Old 07-14-2007, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by princess leonor View Post
As far as my knowledge goes the wife of a King is always a Queen (here in Spain anyway)
Yes. That is the tradition.
But the same tradition also says that sons have preference above daughters. Also that has been changed, isn't it?

People are not consequent if they agree with equal rights in succession but deny an equal treatment for spouses. For understandable reasons the Government finds it 'undesirable' to create the male consort as 'King'. Well, then they do not want to discriminate and make the female consort 'Queen'.
This is the clear intention of the Royal House Act 2002. But we will see what will happen in the future.
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  #133  
Old 08-07-2007, 02:39 PM
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So once Willem-Alexander takes the thrown she can be styled as Queen Maxima?
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  #134  
Old 08-07-2007, 05:12 PM
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Yes. The Princess of Orange. Or Queen Máxima.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH Kerry View Post
So once Willem-Alexander takes the thrown she can be styled as Queen Maxima?
Since the succession has been made gender neutral, also the styles of the Sovereign, the Sovereign's spouse, the Heir(ess) Apparent and the Heir(ess) apparent's spouse have been made gender neutral.

de Koning -&- de Prinses der Nederlanden
de Koningin -&- de Prins der Nederlanden
and
de Prins van Oranje -&- prinses [..........] der Nederlanden
de Prinses van Oranje -&- prins [..........] der Nederlanden

Or this modernized Act translated to the Swedish situation, for an example:

Kungen -&- Sveriges Prinsessa
Drottningen -&- Sveriges Prins
and
Sveriges Kronprins -&- prinsessa [..........] av Sverige
Sveriges Kronprinsessa -&- prins [..........] av Sverige

Or this modernized Act translated to the Belgian situation, for an example:

le Roi -&- la Princesse de Belgique
la Reine -&- le Prince de Belgique
and
le Duc de Brabant -&- la princesse [..........] de Belgique
la Duchesse de Brabant -&- le prince [..........] de Belgique

But it is possible tradition and social custom will be stronger than official regulations and that Máxima will be known as 'Koningin Máxima' indeed

Máxima can already always be styled De Prinses van Oranje, since that is tradition. But the Court does not. And the Government does not. No any official (and I must say also no any inofficial) body does (or did) use the style. In accordance with the modernized Royal House Act, the title Prince(ss) of Orange is reserved for the person of the Heir(ess) Apparent only. We will see how this will work out in the future.
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  #135  
Old 08-08-2007, 07:59 AM
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Would you know, whether this would affect any ranking among other Queen consorts? Would she officially be ranked lower as a Princess of the Netherlands than as the Queen Consort of the Netherlands?
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  #136  
Old 08-08-2007, 08:41 AM
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I am all for the equality of the genders and I think I have come up with a solution:

His Majesty the King and Her Majesty the Princess Consort
Her Majesty the Queen and His Majesty the Prince Consort

That way they still have gender equality in the titles but the spouse will have a higher style (Majesty) than other Prince and Princesses of the realm. Also, I think an abdicated soveriegn should be called Majesty as well even with a Prince/Princess title...
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  #137  
Old 08-08-2007, 09:50 AM
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I think Maxima should get HM Queen Maxima of the Netherlands, when Willem-Alexander gets King of the Netherlands.
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  #138  
Old 08-08-2007, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHofNothing View Post
I am all for the equality of the genders and I think I have come up with a solution:

His Majesty the King and Her Majesty the Princess Consort
Her Majesty the Queen and His Majesty the Prince Consort

That way they still have gender equality in the titles but the spouse will have a higher style (Majesty) than other Prince and Princesses of the realm. Also, I think an abdicated soveriegn should be called Majesty as well even with a Prince/Princess title...

I think I like your solution.
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  #139  
Old 08-08-2007, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by fee View Post
Would you know, whether this would affect any ranking among other Queen consorts? Would she officially be ranked lower as a Princess of the Netherlands than as the Queen Consort of the Netherlands?
She will be the consort of the King and is ranked as such. There is also no difference between the male and female consorts. Lalla Salma even has no title at all. But as consort to The King of Morocco she is on equal feet with Queen Sofía of Spain or Grand Duchess María Teresa of Luxembourg.

The rank of the consorts together is determined by the length of their spouses' Reigns. This means that Queen Sirikit of Thailand is the Doyenne of all spouses.

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  #140  
Old 08-08-2007, 01:15 PM
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Her Majesty is no title

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHofNothing View Post
I am all for the equality of the genders and I think I have come up with a solution:

His Majesty the King and Her Majesty the Princess Consort
Her Majesty the Queen and His Majesty the Prince Consort

That way they still have gender equality in the titles but the spouse will have a higher style (Majesty) than other Prince and Princesses of the realm. Also, I think an abdicated soveriegn should be called Majesty as well even with a Prince/Princess title...
Her Majesty, Her Royal Highness, etc. are no titles. It is a predicate like His Excellency for an Ambassador, His Eminence for a Cardinal, The Right Honourable for a Member of Parliament, His Grace for a non-royal Duke, etc.

In the Benelux countries you can say 'Madam' or 'Mevrouw' instead of 'Your Majesty' or 'Your Royal Highness'. In practice this seldom happens in the Netherlands. People tend to remain formal to The Queen or the Prince of Orange and members of the Royal House. In Belgium people are less formal with the predicates. The common 'Mevrouw' ('Madame') is a much heard style for Queen Paola. Like 'Monseigneur' for Prince Philippe.
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