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  #41  
Old 01-31-2007, 04:52 PM
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Not to get TOTALLY off subject. But what is the criteria for the rankings? I assume we are going on how long the actual sovereign is on the throne? So that's why Sonja would be before Paola, etc.? And Beatrix (80) before Juan Carlos (75)?
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  #42  
Old 01-31-2007, 05:30 PM
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agreed, Watcher

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Watcher
They were all Queen and so will Maxima be... Without double
Exactly. There will be very little discussion about it. One way or another they'll make certain she becomes Queen.

They did the smart thing a few years ago to leave this open since there was too much debate back than. Now that she is such a popular and respected person, they'll fill in the blanks they left back then.
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  #43  
Old 01-31-2007, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prinsesbeagle
Exactly. There will be very little discussion about it. One way or another they'll make certain she becomes Queen.

They did the smart thing a few years ago to leave this open since there was too much debate back than. Now that she is such a popular and respected person, they'll fill in the blanks they left back then.
You are running around the hot pudding and not coming to the point.

- Máxima is a Princess in her own right. This has never happened before to female spouses.
- Catharina-Amalia will be The Princess of Orange. This has never happened before to daughters of a King.
- The children of the two younger Princes did not become a Prince or Princess. This has never happened before.
- To Princesses exactly the same honours wil given as to Princes. This has never happened before.
- Princesses no longer have a 'lower' feminine style of arms but are equal to Princes. This has never happened before.
- Catharina-Amalia will become Queen. A brother will not take precedence above her. This has never happened before.
- an abdicated King will loose his royal style by law. This has never happened before, fixed in the law.

So many things have been changed.
But everybody is focusing on the question 'Will Máxima be Queen'?

No one asks: 'Why is she not The Princess of Orange, like Letizia is The Princess of Asturias and like Mathilde is The Duchess of Brabant?'

But in that lies exacty the answer to your question and this is totally according the new Act 2002 and this the forebode of what the lawmaker has meant for the future.

But once again: you are always free to call her Queen if you want.
You are already free to call her The Princess of Orange (which nobody does!).
You are also free to call her Mrs. van Amsberg, by the way.

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  #44  
Old 01-31-2007, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prinsesbeagle
Exactly. There will be very little discussion about it. One way or another they'll make certain she becomes Queen.

They did the smart thing a few years ago to leave this open since there was too much debate back than. Now that she is such a popular and respected person, they'll fill in the blanks they left back then.
i'm so glad she will be queen, i must say i was confused when they said she will remain princess maxima of the netherlands after the prince becomes king. all the previous queen consorts held that title, so (although it's quite unfair for the prince consorts) i'm glad they are not changing it. anyone knows why the difference in titles for consorts?

i was curiously talking with a dutchman yesterday who told me about maxima's popularity...
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  #45  
Old 01-31-2007, 06:18 PM
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Smile

Thanks to all that have posted such great info about this 2002 law. And wow Henry M., you sure are up on all this stuff. You rock!

I think it makes perfect sense what they did with the law and it has made things more equal for little Catharina. And I totally agree with what Henry M. said about it not being about popularity this is a royal house we're talking about. The government did the right thing, in my opinion.
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  #46  
Old 01-31-2007, 06:59 PM
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Will Máxima be Queen? The reply of the premier in 2001:

Dutch readers can find in on Home - Overheid.nl

Handelingen 2000-2001, nr. 333, Eerste Kamer, pag. 15-27 (84 Kb)Behandeling toestemmingswet huwelijk van Prins Willem-Alexander, Prins van Oranje en Máxima Zorreguieta, see page VV25.

The premier spoke the following words:

"Since the beginning of the Kingdom, the title of The Prince of Orange has always exclusively been used by the Heir-Apparent. It is in the intention of the Government that there will no more difference in gender. This means that a female Heir will become The Princess of Orange equal to the existing situation for a male Heir.

This is no new development at all. This intention was already announced during the process of the modernization of the Constitution in 1983. This means we have taken a long time to work this out.

The exclusive relationship between the title The Prince of Orange or The Princess of Orange and the temporarily function of being the Heir-Apparent, does conflict with the use of this title by the female spouse, like it would have conflicted with the use of this title by a male spouse. After all: the spouse of a Heir-Apparent is not the constitutional presumptive successor to the King.

I think I did the right thing to stress what the intention is of the Government. Has all been said by this? No. This brings me to the title of the spouse to the Heir-Apparent on the moment of an accession to the Throne. I want to stress that we are discussing the Bill of Consent for the marriage of the Heir and not a future title of the spouse to the King. I know that Mr Rosenmöller would like to hear my opinion on this.

It sounds very formal but it is not on my way to give an answer to this question, raised by Mr. Rosenmöller. The answer will be given by the Government when the moment of the accession to the Throne is there. That is the right moment for the Government to give its viewpoint on this. Of course the feelings of the States-General (=Parliament) are important in this, but I'm a stickler to the old credo: 'all in its own time'. I have no desire to say anything about it."
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  #47  
Old 04-08-2007, 03:06 AM
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This is certainly is very complicated. I thought she would automatically become Queen.
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  #48  
Old 04-08-2007, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDianafan
This is certainly is very complicated. I thought she would automatically become Queen.
The 'problem' is that gender no longer does matter in the succession and that the firstborn child, regardless the gender, will become the Prince(ss) of Orange and later the King (Queen) of the Netherlands. Consequently to this the Government thought it was discriminatory to handle male and female spouses differently.

So the idea of the Government was to take away all discriminatory differences and treat them equeal:

The King
& The Princess of the Netherlands ................................ (This probably will be the situation under King Willem IV Alexander)

The Queen
& The Prince of the Netherlands ...................................(This was the situation under Beatrix, Juliana and Wilhelmina)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Prince of Orange
& Princess [.....] of the Netherlands ..............................(This is the current situation with Willem-Alexander and Máxima)

The Princess of Orange
& Prince [.....] of the Netherlands .................................(This will be the situation with Catharina-Amalia and her spouse)

But there is opposition to that because tradition is strong. That is why the Government refuses to give clarity right now.
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  #49  
Old 04-08-2007, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
The 'problem' is that gender no longer does matter in the succession and that the firstborn child, regardless the gender, will become the Prince(ss) of Orange and later the King (Queen) of the Netherlands. Consequently to this the Government thought it was discriminatory to handle male and female spouses differently.

So the idea of the Government was to take away all discriminatory differences and treat them equeal:

The King
& The Princess of the Netherlands ................................ (This probably will be the situation under King Willem IV Alexander)

The Queen
& The Prince of the Netherlands ...................................(This was the situation under Beatrix, Juliana and Wilhelmina)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Prince of Orange
& Princess [.....] of the Netherlands ..............................(This is the current situation with Willem-Alexander and Máxima)

The Princess of Orange
& Prince [.....] of the Netherlands .................................(This will be the situation with Catharina-Amalia and her spouse)

But there is opposition to that because tradition is strong. That is why the Government refuses to give clarity right now.
But if the want full equality the should give the male sposues of a female monarch the Title King-Consort like it was done in Spain in the past and also in Portugal.
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  #50  
Old 04-08-2007, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan
But if the want full equality the should give the male sposues of a female monarch the Title King-Consort like it was done in Spain in the past and also in Portugal.
Or female spouses of a male monarch the title Princess-Consort, like mentioned by Henri M.
  #51  
Old 04-08-2007, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
The King
& The Princess of the Netherlands ................................ (This probably will be the situation under King Willem IV Alexander)
Probably we will have a King Willem IV and Queen Máxima of the Netherlands in the future. Willem IV, because the Prince told that in an interview and Queen Máxima because a large majority of the parlement wants it. And if a large majority of the parlement wants it, it will happen. It is unlikely that Máxima will not become Queen.
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  #52  
Old 04-08-2007, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan
But if the want full equality the should give the male sposues of a female monarch the Title King-Consort like it was done in Spain in the past and also in Portugal.
Heinrich von Mecklenburg-Schwerin was no King of the Netherlands
Bernhard zur Lippe-Biesterfeld was no King of the Netherlands
Claus von Amsberg was no King of the Netherlands
Albert von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha was no King of Great-Britain
Philip of Greece and Denmark is no King of Great-Britain
Henri de Laborde Montpezat is no King of Denmark

Making the future spouse of Queen Catharina-Amalia a King would equally be a breach with tradition.
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  #53  
Old 04-08-2007, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Watcher
Willem IV, because the Prince told that in an interview.
To the best of my knowledge the Prince has never, ever spoken about his spouse's future title.

And secondly, Parliament has no say about royal titles. Parliament 'wishes' Máxima to be known as 'Princess of Orange'. This has not happened, did it?

The same Parliament approved the present Act on the Membership of the Royal House 2002 which states in article 8, second part ad. a:

Artikel 8
De titel «Prins (Prinses) der Nederlanden» kan bij koninklijk besluit uitsluitend worden verleend aan de volgende leden van het Koninklijk Huis:
a. de echtgenoot of echtgenote van de Koning;
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  #54  
Old 04-08-2007, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
To the best of my knowledge the Prince has never, ever spoken about his spouse's future title.
I don't think The Watcher meant W-A talking about Máxima's title, but his own, Willem IV Me personally, I think Máxima should be titled Queen
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  #55  
Old 04-08-2007, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JessRulz
I don't think The Watcher meant W-A talking about Máxima's title, but his own, Willem IV Me personally, I think Máxima should be titled Queen
No doubt she will be.Regardless what people try to make up beforehand.
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  #56  
Old 04-08-2007, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Robijn
Or female spouses of a male monarch the title Princess-Consort, like mentioned by Henri M.
But then he/she are not equal to their spouse because the have a lower title. What i meant when introducing equalitiy to males and females in the succession (like they have down with gender-blind succession) why not the same in the Titles of the Monarch. A spouse of a King becomes Queen and a spouse of a Queen becomes King.
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  #57  
Old 04-08-2007, 08:25 AM
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It is all okay by me.

I have to conclude that, for so far, I have been the only one who can refer to official documents and to the standing practice in which Máxima, as wife to the Prince of Orange, is not addressed as 'The Princess of Orange'.

Food for thought: this is also a break of tradition as all previous spouses to a Prince of Orange:
Sophie von Württemberg,
Anna Paulovna of Russia,
Wilhelmina von Preussen (1),
Wilhelmina von Preussen (2),
Anne of Great-Britain and Hannover,
Marie-Luise von Hessen-Kassel,
Mary of York,
Mary the Princess Royal,
Amalia von Solms Braunfels,
Eleonore de Bourbon,
Louise de Coligny,
Charlotte de Bourbon,
Anna von Sachsen,
Anna van Egmont
Anne de Lorraine et Bar
were all Princess of Orange, being a spouse of the Prince of Orange.

Máxima is not.
The first one in all those centuries.
Food for thought, myladies and gentlemen.

I fail to see why this breach with tradition (and there were lots of protests as well) is ignored if we are talking about a possible future breach with tradition which is already mentioned in the Act on the membership of the Royal House. Like it is already mentioned in the same Act that the Heir(ess) exclusively bears the title The Prince (Princess) of Orange.
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  #58  
Old 04-08-2007, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan
But then he/she are not equal to their spouse because the have a lower title.
Of course they are not equal to their spouse.
Their spouse is the head of state and Sovereign.
They are not.

The equalness is in the fact that all spouses to the Sovereign and the Heir will have, regardless of their gender, the same title.
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  #59  
Old 04-08-2007, 10:34 AM
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I guess I just don't care about the whole title debate. It just seems totally irrelevant to me, sorry. People don't get respect from me for how high their title is.
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  #60  
Old 04-08-2007, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prinsesbeagle
I guess I just don't care about the whole title debate. It just seems totally irrelevant to me, sorry. People don't get respect from me for how high their title is.
If it is irrelevant, then we can call the Queen mrs. Van Amsberg?

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