Princess Máxima's Future Title

[Verde Esmeralda]

Maybe the State will address Máxima with both titles:

'Her Majesty Queen Máxima, The Princess of the Netherlands'

That would be a cool solution... would it be technically possible?

 

[Henri M.]

Victim of Máxima's popularity

That would be a cool solution... would it be technically possible?

Yes, for example Queen Wilhelmina, Queen Anna Paulovna, Queen Sophie, Queen Emma also have had multiple titles being Queen, Grand Duchess, Duchess and Princess at the same time.

In fact all parliamentarians agreed with the new Act which is very gender-friendly, logic and equal. The Act was almost unanimously consented by Parliament. The result of the vote was victorious: 223-2 (!).

But now the new Princess (Máxima) is só overwhelmingly popular and só beloved in the Netherlands that suddenly parliamentarians stutter about 'Máxima should become Queen'.

This while Parliament itself has agreed with the new Act in 2002! They knew what they were voting for! Okay, it is a sympathic attitude and it speaks volumes about the appreciation for Princess Máxima, but I think Government will not take it too serious because what if another spouse was not so overwhelmingly popular as Máxima? Would that spouse not become Queen then?

The Government (and the Queen) wants a reliable, workable and objective framework for the titulature in the Royal House. And not because someone is popular or not. The Royal House is no X-factor or American Idol, of course.

 

[prinsesbeagle]

queen it will be

As soon as WA is king, she will become queen. Either in name or officially, but who cares. No one is going to call her princess after that. Except perhaps certain people on this board

 

[Henri M.]

As soon as WA is king, she will become queen. Either in name or officially, but who cares. No one is going to call her princess after that. Except perhaps certain people on this board

Is she called 'The Princess of Orange'?
By anyone, official or inofficial?

This is the very same principle: the spouse of The Prince of Orange is called The Princess of Orange.
But nobody does.

Everybody follows her official style: HRH Princess Máxima of the Netherlands.

 

[corazon]

No they will not change the law.
In 2002 a new law was already offered and accepted: 223 votes yes and 2 votes no.
This law says: the spouse of the King has the title The Princess of the Netherlands.

But besides the law, there also is the tradition.
According to this tradition the female spouse of a Count is a Countess.
The female spouse of a Prince is a Princess.
And of course, the female spouse of a King is a Queen.

What these parliamentarians want is: the State should always address Máxima as 'The Queen'.
But they asked the same for 'The Princess of Orange' and also that has never happened in daily reality, the last 5 years.

Maybe the State will address Máxima with both titles:

'Her Majesty Queen Máxima, The Princess of the Netherlands'

thanks for the explication, is difficult to understand to me. Is a tradition about the titles, somebody know what happend with the spouses of the another kings of holand?

 

[The Watcher]

thanks for the explication, is difficult to understand to me. Is a tradition about the titles, somebody know what happend with the spouses of the another kings of holand?

They were all Queen and so will Maxima be... Without double

 

[Vanesa]

I hope so!

Vanesa.

 

[Henri M.]

Tradition has already been broken twice

thanks for the explication, is difficult to understand to me. Is a tradition about the titles, somebody know what happend with the spouses of the another kings of holand?

The tradition indeed is that spouses follow their husband's style. But this tradition is already broken now because Máxima has never followed her husband's style.

She was, as the first female spouse, bestowed her own title Princess of the Netherlands in her own right. Also that is a break with tradition because this has never happened to former female spouses but I hear no any other posters murmuring about that. A bit too easy and too selective.


It does not make sense to look back to 1813 or 1840 because the situation regarding the Royal House, the succession and the titles is totally different since 1983.

 

[fee]

May I ask another question, Henry?
I very much understand and agree with the reasons why the Netherland opts for this quite emanzipated system, what would be the order of precedence?

Would Maxima be "outranked" by a consort who has been styled Queen, if she is only to be styled "princess"?
(An actual example would be: Is Lalla Salma on the same level as the Queens Sonja, Silvia, Sophia and Paola? )

 

[Henri M.]

Equal

The titles do not matter so much. They are consorts to heads of state. Prince Philip or Prince Henrik do enjoy the same precedence as Queen Sonja or Grand Duchess María Teresa.

Consorts follow the rank of the Reign of their spouse:

1 - HM Queen Sirikit of Thailand
2 - HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh
3 - HRH Prince Henrik, the Prince of Denmark
4 - HM Queen Silvia of Sweden
5 - HM Queen Sofía of Spain
- - a possible second spouse to HM The Queen of the Netherlands
6 - HM Empress Michiko of Japan
7 - HM Queen Sonja of Norway
8 - HM Queen Paola of Belgium
9 - HRH Grand Duchess María Teresa of Luxembourg
10 - a possible spouse to HSH The Sovereign Prince of Monaco
Etc.

 

[Zonk]

Not to get TOTALLY off subject. But what is the criteria for the rankings? I assume we are going on how long the actual sovereign is on the throne? So that's why Sonja would be before Paola, etc.? And Beatrix (80) before Juan Carlos (75)?

 

[prinsesbeagle]

agreed, Watcher

They were all Queen and so will Maxima be... Without double

Exactly. There will be very little discussion about it. One way or another they'll make certain she becomes Queen.

They did the smart thing a few years ago to leave this open since there was too much debate back than. Now that she is such a popular and respected person, they'll fill in the blanks they left back then.

 

[Henri M.]

Exactly. There will be very little discussion about it. One way or another they'll make certain she becomes Queen.

They did the smart thing a few years ago to leave this open since there was too much debate back than. Now that she is such a popular and respected person, they'll fill in the blanks they left back then.

You are running around the hot pudding and not coming to the point.

- Máxima is a Princess in her own right. This has never happened before to female spouses.
- Catharina-Amalia will be The Princess of Orange. This has never happened before to daughters of a King.
- The children of the two younger Princes did not become a Prince or Princess. This has never happened before.
- To Princesses exactly the same honours wil given as to Princes. This has never happened before.
- Princesses no longer have a 'lower' feminine style of arms but are equal to Princes. This has never happened before.
- Catharina-Amalia will become Queen. A brother will not take precedence above her. This has never happened before.
- an abdicated King will loose his royal style by law. This has never happened before, fixed in the law.

So many things have been changed.
But everybody is focusing on the question 'Will Máxima be Queen'?

No one asks: 'Why is she not The Princess of Orange, like Letizia is The Princess of Asturias and like Mathilde is The Duchess of Brabant?'

But in that lies exacty the answer to your question and this is totally according the new Act 2002 and this the forebode of what the lawmaker has meant for the future.

But once again: you are always free to call her Queen if you want.
You are already free to call her The Princess of Orange (which nobody does!).
You are also free to call her Mrs. van Amsberg, by the way.

 

[carlota]

Exactly. There will be very little discussion about it. One way or another they'll make certain she becomes Queen.

They did the smart thing a few years ago to leave this open since there was too much debate back than. Now that she is such a popular and respected person, they'll fill in the blanks they left back then.

i'm so glad she will be queen, i must say i was confused when they said she will remain princess maxima of the netherlands after the prince becomes king. all the previous queen consorts held that title, so (although it's quite unfair for the prince consorts) i'm glad they are not changing it. anyone knows why the difference in titles for consorts?

i was curiously talking with a dutchman yesterday who told me about maxima's popularity...

 

[Aurora810]

Thanks to all that have posted such great info about this 2002 law. And wow Henry M., you sure are up on all this stuff. You rock!

I think it makes perfect sense what they did with the law and it has made things more equal for little Catharina. And I totally agree with what Henry M. said about it not being about popularity this is a royal house we're talking about. The government did the right thing, in my opinion.

 

[Henri M.]

Will Máxima be Queen? The reply of the premier in 2001:

Dutch readers can find in on Home - Overheid.nl

Handelingen 2000-2001, nr. 333, Eerste Kamer, pag. 15-27 (84 Kb)Behandeling toestemmingswet huwelijk van Prins Willem-Alexander, Prins van Oranje en Máxima Zorreguieta, see page VV25.

The premier spoke the following words:

"Since the beginning of the Kingdom, the title of The Prince of Orange has always exclusively been used by the Heir-Apparent. It is in the intention of the Government that there will no more difference in gender. This means that a female Heir will become The Princess of Orange equal to the existing situation for a male Heir.

This is no new development at all. This intention was already announced during the process of the modernization of the Constitution in 1983. This means we have taken a long time to work this out.

The exclusive relationship between the title The Prince of Orange or The Princess of Orange and the temporarily function of being the Heir-Apparent, does conflict with the use of this title by the female spouse, like it would have conflicted with the use of this title by a male spouse. After all: the spouse of a Heir-Apparent is not the constitutional presumptive successor to the King.

I think I did the right thing to stress what the intention is of the Government. Has all been said by this? No. This brings me to the title of the spouse to the Heir-Apparent on the moment of an accession to the Throne. I want to stress that we are discussing the Bill of Consent for the marriage of the Heir and not a future title of the spouse to the King. I know that Mr Rosenmöller would like to hear my opinion on this.

It sounds very formal but it is not on my way to give an answer to this question, raised by Mr. Rosenmöller. The answer will be given by the Government when the moment of the accession to the Throne is there. That is the right moment for the Government to give its viewpoint on this. Of course the feelings of the States-General (=Parliament) are important in this, but I'm a stickler to the old credo: 'all in its own time'. I have no desire to say anything about it."

 

[PrincessDianafan]

This is certainly is very complicated. I thought she would automatically become Queen.

 

[Henri M.]

This is certainly is very complicated. I thought she would automatically become Queen.

The 'problem' is that gender no longer does matter in the succession and that the firstborn child, regardless the gender, will become the Prince(ss) of Orange and later the King (Queen) of the Netherlands. Consequently to this the Government thought it was discriminatory to handle male and female spouses differently.

So the idea of the Government was to take away all discriminatory differences and treat them equeal:

The King
& The Princess of the Netherlands ................................ (This probably will be the situation under King Willem IV Alexander)

The Queen
& The Prince of the Netherlands ...................................(This was the situation under Beatrix, Juliana and Wilhelmina)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Prince of Orange
& Princess [.....] of the Netherlands ..............................(This is the current situation with Willem-Alexander and Máxima)

The Princess of Orange
& Prince [.....] of the Netherlands .................................(This will be the situation with Catharina-Amalia and her spouse)

But there is opposition to that because tradition is strong. That is why the Government refuses to give clarity right now.

 

[Stefan]

The 'problem' is that gender no longer does matter in the succession and that the firstborn child, regardless the gender, will become the Prince(ss) of Orange and later the King (Queen) of the Netherlands. Consequently to this the Government thought it was discriminatory to handle male and female spouses differently.

So the idea of the Government was to take away all discriminatory differences and treat them equeal:

The King
& The Princess of the Netherlands ................................ (This probably will be the situation under King Willem IV Alexander)

The Queen
& The Prince of the Netherlands ...................................(This was the situation under Beatrix, Juliana and Wilhelmina)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Prince of Orange
& Princess [.....] of the Netherlands ..............................(This is the current situation with Willem-Alexander and Máxima)

The Princess of Orange
& Prince [.....] of the Netherlands .................................(This will be the situation with Catharina-Amalia and her spouse)

But there is opposition to that because tradition is strong. That is why the Government refuses to give clarity right now.

But if the want full equality the should give the male sposues of a female monarch the Title King-Consort like it was done in Spain in the past and also in Portugal.

 

[Princess Robijn]

But if the want full equality the should give the male sposues of a female monarch the Title King-Consort like it was done in Spain in the past and also in Portugal.

Or female spouses of a male monarch the title Princess-Consort, like mentioned by Henri M.

 

[The Watcher]

The King
& The Princess of the Netherlands ................................ (This probably will be the situation under King Willem IV Alexander)

Probably we will have a King Willem IV and Queen Máxima of the Netherlands in the future. Willem IV, because the Prince told that in an interview and Queen Máxima because a large majority of the parlement wants it. And if a large majority of the parlement wants it, it will happen. It is unlikely that Máxima will not become Queen.

 

[Henri M.]

But if the want full equality the should give the male sposues of a female monarch the Title King-Consort like it was done in Spain in the past and also in Portugal.

Heinrich von Mecklenburg-Schwerin was no King of the Netherlands
Bernhard zur Lippe-Biesterfeld was no King of the Netherlands
Claus von Amsberg was no King of the Netherlands
Albert von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha was no King of Great-Britain
Philip of Greece and Denmark is no King of Great-Britain
Henri de Laborde Montpezat is no King of Denmark

Making the future spouse of Queen Catharina-Amalia a King would equally be a breach with tradition.

 

[Henri M.]

Willem IV, because the Prince told that in an interview.

To the best of my knowledge the Prince has never, ever spoken about his spouse's future title.

And secondly, Parliament has no say about royal titles. Parliament 'wishes' Máxima to be known as 'Princess of Orange'. This has not happened, did it?

The same Parliament approved the present Act on the Membership of the Royal House 2002 which states in article 8, second part ad. a:

Artikel 8
De titel «Prins (Prinses) der Nederlanden» kan bij koninklijk besluit uitsluitend worden verleend aan de volgende leden van het Koninklijk Huis:
a. de echtgenoot of echtgenote van de Koning;

 

[JessRulz]

To the best of my knowledge the Prince has never, ever spoken about his spouse's future title.

I don't think The Watcher meant W-A talking about Máxima's title, but his own, Willem IV Me personally, I think Máxima should be titled Queen

 

[lucien]

I don't think The Watcher meant W-A talking about Máxima's title, but his own, Willem IV Me personally, I think Máxima should be titled Queen

No doubt she will be.Regardless what people try to make up beforehand.

 

[Stefan]

Or female spouses of a male monarch the title Princess-Consort, like mentioned by Henri M.

But then he/she are not equal to their spouse because the have a lower title. What i meant when introducing equalitiy to males and females in the succession (like they have down with gender-blind succession) why not the same in the Titles of the Monarch. A spouse of a King becomes Queen and a spouse of a Queen becomes King.

 

[Henri M.]

It is all okay by me.

I have to conclude that, for so far, I have been the only one who can refer to official documents and to the standing practice in which Máxima, as wife to the Prince of Orange, is not addressed as 'The Princess of Orange'.

Food for thought: this is also a break of tradition as all previous spouses to a Prince of Orange:
Sophie von Württemberg,
Anna Paulovna of Russia,
Wilhelmina von Preussen (1),
Wilhelmina von Preussen (2),
Anne of Great-Britain and Hannover,
Marie-Luise von Hessen-Kassel,
Mary of York,
Mary the Princess Royal,
Amalia von Solms Braunfels,
Eleonore de Bourbon,
Louise de Coligny,
Charlotte de Bourbon,
Anna von Sachsen,
Anna van Egmont
Anne de Lorraine et Bar
were all Princess of Orange, being a spouse of the Prince of Orange.

Máxima is not.
The first one in all those centuries.
Food for thought, myladies and gentlemen.

I fail to see why this breach with tradition (and there were lots of protests as well) is ignored if we are talking about a possible future breach with tradition which is already mentioned in the Act on the membership of the Royal House. Like it is already mentioned in the same Act that the Heir(ess) exclusively bears the title The Prince (Princess) of Orange.

 

[Henri M.]

But then he/she are not equal to their spouse because the have a lower title.

Of course they are not equal to their spouse.
Their spouse is the head of state and Sovereign.
They are not.

The equalness is in the fact that all spouses to the Sovereign and the Heir will have, regardless of their gender, the same title.

 

[prinsesbeagle]

I guess I just don't care about the whole title debate. It just seems totally irrelevant to me, sorry. People don't get respect from me for how high their title is.

 

[Henri M.]

I guess I just don't care about the whole title debate. It just seems totally irrelevant to me, sorry. People don't get respect from me for how high their title is.

If it is irrelevant, then we can call the Queen mrs. Van Amsberg?