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  #21  
Old 01-30-2007, 10:41 AM
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Since as far back as I have researched, consorts of a king have held the feminine version of their husnads title, which for King is Queen. The only exceptions that have found are some of the sultinates, and perhaps a very few middle eastern countries.

And on the other hand, it would just seem strange to have a king, with a princess as a wife, in my opinion.
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  #22  
Old 01-30-2007, 01:06 PM
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but if willem is king maxima is queen or not?
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Today the world has embraced new royal Princesses in the form of Mary of Denmark and Maxima of the Netherlands. But it's questionable whether even these hugely popular, increasingly glamorous future Queens will ever capture the world's imagination in the same way as Diana.
As Mario acknowledges: "She really was a true Princess".
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  #23  
Old 01-30-2007, 01:24 PM
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It has everything to do with equal succession

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empress
Since as far back as I have researched, consorts of a king have held the feminine version of their husnads title, which for King is Queen. The only exceptions that have found are some of the sultinates, and perhaps a very few middle eastern countries.

And on the other hand, it would just seem strange to have a king, with a princess as a wife, in my opinion.
People tend to forget why this change was made...:
- before 1983 male had preference above female;
- before 1983 only the eldest son of the King could be The Prince of Orange;
- a Princess received 51 cannonblasts, a male Prince 101 cannonblast
- a Princess had an oval, feminine and lower-ranked form of her Arms, a Prince had the traditional higher-ranked shield

With the modernization of the constitution there is a new situation.
- Princess Catharina-Amalia is and remains the Heiress Apparent, no matter she will have a younger brother later;
- Princess Catharina-Amalia will be The Princess of Orange, a title which was never worn by the Princesses Beatrix, Juliana and Wilhelmina;
- Princess Catharina-Amalia was greeted with 101 cannonblasts. A honour which was never given to the Princesses Beatrix, Juliana and Wilhelmina;
- Princess Catharina-Amalia has a traditional 'male' shield as her Arms. A privilege never enjoyed by the Princesses Beatrix, Juliana and Wilhelmina.

You see that the government (including the Queen) has been straightforward and consequent in many things. When people point to the past, they forget that since 1983 all has been changed and that the past really is past present with regard to the style and titles and succession.

The King &
The Princess of the Netherlands

The Queen &
The Prince of the Netherlands

The Prince of Orange &
Princess [name] of the Netherlands

The Princess of Orange &
Prince [name] of the Netherlands

Can it be more logical, more straightforward, more equal and more fair than this???
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  #24  
Old 01-30-2007, 01:32 PM
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Ok Henri, but I still do not see what this has to do with my post. My post was merely about the fact that historically speaking the consort of a king has been known as Queen, and there is, in my mind, no reason to change this. While other things have been changed to bring female succession more in line with todays world, I do not see why this would/should change the title of a female consort?
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  #25  
Old 01-30-2007, 01:36 PM
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when maxima's marry here all the press said she will be queen, princess maxima, future queen of holand, now the true is that the law od sussetion in holand is equal for princess and princes
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Today the world has embraced new royal Princesses in the form of Mary of Denmark and Maxima of the Netherlands. But it's questionable whether even these hugely popular, increasingly glamorous future Queens will ever capture the world's imagination in the same way as Diana.
As Mario acknowledges: "She really was a true Princess".
-www.theroyalist.net-
  #26  
Old 01-30-2007, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
People tend to forget why this change was made...:
- before 1983 male had preference above female;
- before 1983 only the eldest son of the King could be The Prince of Orange;
- a Princess received 51 cannonblasts, a male Prince 101 cannonblast
- a Princess had an oval, feminine and lower-ranked form of her Arms, a Prince had the traditional higher-ranked shield

With the modernization of the constitution there is a new situation.
- Princess Catharina-Amalia is and remains the Heiress Apparent, no matter she will have a younger brother later;
- Princess Catharina-Amalia will be The Princess of Orange, a title which was never worn by the Princesses Beatrix, Juliana and Wilhelmina;
- Princess Catharina-Amalia was greeted with 101 cannonblasts. A honour which was never given to the Princesses Beatrix, Juliana and Wilhelmina;
- Princess Catharina-Amalia has a traditional 'male' shield as her Arms. A privilege never enjoyed by the Princesses Beatrix, Juliana and Wilhelmina.

You see that the government (including the Queen) has been straightforward and consequent in many things. When people point to the past, they forget that since 1983 all has been changed and that the past really is past present with regard to the style and titles and succession.

The King &
The Princess of the Netherlands

The Queen &
The Prince of the Netherlands

The Prince of Orange &
Princess [name] of the Netherlands

The Princess of Orange &
Prince [name] of the Netherlands

Can it be more logical, more straightforward, more equal and more fair than this???
Thanks for explaining it so clearly. I understand their rulings to make it more equal. I have always thought it odd that a King's wife is automatically Queen (Consort) and a Queen's husband is not King (Consort).
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  #27  
Old 01-30-2007, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empress
My post was merely about the fact that historically speaking the consort of a king has been known as Queen, and there is, in my mind, no reason to change this.
Yes there are reasons to change that.
History goes no further back than 1983 so to say because of the total different succession and other articles about the succession and the Royal House.

- do you agree that Princess Catharina-Amalia will be The Princess of Orange?
Yes?
That is a break with tradition.

- Do you agree that Princess Catharina-Amalia receives the same honours as a male Prince?
Yes?
That is a break with tradition.

- Do you agree that Princess Catharina-Amalia will have a coat-of-arms equal to males?
Yes?
That is a break with tradition.

- Do you agree that spouses to the Sovereign will always be The Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands?
No?
Why not?
Because it is a break with tradition?

So you are not consequent in this then. The Government opted for a consequent system for once and for all. But you are allowed to call Máxima 'Queen' if you want. Like you are allowed to call her 'The Princess of Orange' right now. (Nobody does, by the way).
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  #28  
Old 01-30-2007, 02:04 PM
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You can always call Máxima Queen

Quote:
Originally Posted by corazon
when maxima's marry here all the press said she will be queen, princess maxima, future queen of holand, now the true is that the law od sussetion in holand is equal for princess and princes
The tradition is that the female spouses of titled persons are styled with their husband's titles.
So the spouse of King Willem IV Alexander can addressed as Queen Máxima.

That is why you are free to address Camilla as HRH The Princess of Wales.
That is why you are free to address Máxima as HRH The Princess of Orange.

But both Courts and both Governments don't do so. But you are allowed to do.
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  #29  
Old 01-30-2007, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
The tradition is that the female spouses of titled persons are styled with their husband's titles.
So the spouse of King Willem IV Alexander can addressed as Queen Máxima.

That is why you are free to address Camilla as HRH The Princess of Wales.
That is why you are free to address Máxima as HRH The Princess of Orange.

But both Courts and both Governments don't do so. But you are allowed to do.
so, we can call her queen maxima but for the royal house is princess maxima?
I read that the parliament wants to change the law and to give to maxima the title of queen
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Today the world has embraced new royal Princesses in the form of Mary of Denmark and Maxima of the Netherlands. But it's questionable whether even these hugely popular, increasingly glamorous future Queens will ever capture the world's imagination in the same way as Diana.
As Mario acknowledges: "She really was a true Princess".
-www.theroyalist.net-
  #30  
Old 01-30-2007, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corazon
so, we can call her queen maxima but for the royal house is princess maxima?
I read that the parliament wants to change the law and to give to maxima the title of queen
No they will not change the law.
In 2002 a new law was already offered and accepted: 223 votes yes and 2 votes no.
This law says: the spouse of the King has the title The Princess of the Netherlands.

But besides the law, there also is the tradition.
According to this tradition the female spouse of a Count is a Countess.
The female spouse of a Prince is a Princess.
And of course, the female spouse of a King is a Queen.

What these parliamentarians want is: the State should always address Máxima as 'The Queen'.
But they asked the same for 'The Princess of Orange' and also that has never happened in daily reality, the last 5 years.

Maybe the State will address Máxima with both titles:

'Her Majesty Queen Máxima, The Princess of the Netherlands'
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  #31  
Old 01-30-2007, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
Maybe the State will address Máxima with both titles:

'Her Majesty Queen Máxima, The Princess of the Netherlands'
That would be a cool solution... would it be technically possible?
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  #32  
Old 01-30-2007, 06:50 PM
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Victim of Máxima's popularity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verde Esmeralda
That would be a cool solution... would it be technically possible?
Yes, for example Queen Wilhelmina, Queen Anna Paulovna, Queen Sophie, Queen Emma also have had multiple titles being Queen, Grand Duchess, Duchess and Princess at the same time.

In fact all parliamentarians agreed with the new Act which is very gender-friendly, logic and equal. The Act was almost unanimously consented by Parliament. The result of the vote was victorious: 223-2 (!).

But now the new Princess (Máxima) is só overwhelmingly popular and só beloved in the Netherlands that suddenly parliamentarians stutter about 'Máxima should become Queen'.

This while Parliament itself has agreed with the new Act in 2002! They knew what they were voting for! Okay, it is a sympathic attitude and it speaks volumes about the appreciation for Princess Máxima, but I think Government will not take it too serious because what if another spouse was not so overwhelmingly popular as Máxima? Would that spouse not become Queen then?

The Government (and the Queen) wants a reliable, workable and objective framework for the titulature in the Royal House. And not because someone is popular or not. The Royal House is no X-factor or American Idol, of course.
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  #33  
Old 01-30-2007, 06:50 PM
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queen it will be

As soon as WA is king, she will become queen. Either in name or officially, but who cares. No one is going to call her princess after that. Except perhaps certain people on this board
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  #34  
Old 01-30-2007, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prinsesbeagle
As soon as WA is king, she will become queen. Either in name or officially, but who cares. No one is going to call her princess after that. Except perhaps certain people on this board
Is she called 'The Princess of Orange'?
By anyone, official or inofficial?

This is the very same principle: the spouse of The Prince of Orange is called The Princess of Orange.
But nobody does.

Everybody follows her official style: HRH Princess Máxima of the Netherlands.
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  #35  
Old 01-30-2007, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
No they will not change the law.
In 2002 a new law was already offered and accepted: 223 votes yes and 2 votes no.
This law says: the spouse of the King has the title The Princess of the Netherlands.

But besides the law, there also is the tradition.
According to this tradition the female spouse of a Count is a Countess.
The female spouse of a Prince is a Princess.
And of course, the female spouse of a King is a Queen.

What these parliamentarians want is: the State should always address Máxima as 'The Queen'.
But they asked the same for 'The Princess of Orange' and also that has never happened in daily reality, the last 5 years.

Maybe the State will address Máxima with both titles:

'Her Majesty Queen Máxima, The Princess of the Netherlands'
thanks for the explication, is difficult to understand to me. Is a tradition about the titles, somebody know what happend with the spouses of the another kings of holand?
__________________
Today the world has embraced new royal Princesses in the form of Mary of Denmark and Maxima of the Netherlands. But it's questionable whether even these hugely popular, increasingly glamorous future Queens will ever capture the world's imagination in the same way as Diana.
As Mario acknowledges: "She really was a true Princess".
-www.theroyalist.net-
  #36  
Old 01-30-2007, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corazon
thanks for the explication, is difficult to understand to me. Is a tradition about the titles, somebody know what happend with the spouses of the another kings of holand?
They were all Queen and so will Maxima be... Without double
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  #37  
Old 01-30-2007, 08:59 PM
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I hope so!

Vanesa.
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  #38  
Old 01-31-2007, 03:00 AM
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Tradition has already been broken twice

Quote:
Originally Posted by corazon
thanks for the explication, is difficult to understand to me. Is a tradition about the titles, somebody know what happend with the spouses of the another kings of holand?
The tradition indeed is that spouses follow their husband's style. But this tradition is already broken now because Máxima has never followed her husband's style.

She was, as the first female spouse, bestowed her own title Princess of the Netherlands in her own right. Also that is a break with tradition because this has never happened to former female spouses but I hear no any other posters murmuring about that. A bit too easy and too selective.


It does not make sense to look back to 1813 or 1840 because the situation regarding the Royal House, the succession and the titles is totally different since 1983.
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  #39  
Old 01-31-2007, 04:25 PM
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May I ask another question, Henry?
I very much understand and agree with the reasons why the Netherland opts for this quite emanzipated system, what would be the order of precedence?

Would Maxima be "outranked" by a consort who has been styled Queen, if she is only to be styled "princess"?
(An actual example would be: Is Lalla Salma on the same level as the Queens Sonja, Silvia, Sophia and Paola? )
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  #40  
Old 01-31-2007, 04:37 PM
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Equal

The titles do not matter so much. They are consorts to heads of state. Prince Philip or Prince Henrik do enjoy the same precedence as Queen Sonja or Grand Duchess María Teresa.

Consorts follow the rank of the Reign of their spouse:

1 - HM Queen Sirikit of Thailand
2 - HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh
3 - HRH Prince Henrik, the Prince of Denmark
4 - HM Queen Silvia of Sweden
5 - HM Queen Sofía of Spain
- - a possible second spouse to HM The Queen of the Netherlands
6 - HM Empress Michiko of Japan
7 - HM Queen Sonja of Norway
8 - HM Queen Paola of Belgium
9 - HRH Grand Duchess María Teresa of Luxembourg
10 - a possible spouse to HSH The Sovereign Prince of Monaco
Etc.
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