King Willem-Alexander and the British Throne

[GrandDuchess]

Thank you Henri, for your interesting insights on the topic.

So is the fact that Máxima remains a catholic not an issue in The Netherlands? If she remains with her denomination, and becomes Queen as a catholic, won't it sparkle any debate? I know it's a liberal country, but I'm just curious.

 

[Maxie]

I don't think people would really mind if she stayed catholic. The Netherlands have always been a very liberal country and I myself would find it quite narrowminded if people would expect Maxima to adopt another faith than the one she's raised in just because she's married to the heir to the throne who happens to be a protestant. I totally agree with prince Willem-Alexander when he says that the form of the two faiths is different, but the feeling the same. One should focus a bit more on the similarities between different faiths in stead of always looking for differences.

 

[Marengo]

Reverend C. ter Linden, who married the couple, said oin television saturday that the princess came to him in 2000 already (so even before the engagement) to get more insight in protestantism, as she was unaware of it.
(FYI the reverend also told that the Prince and 11 friends of his have founded a bible group, which comes together each month to discuss parts of the bible).

I wonder what happend if she does convert. Would the Prince of Orange get his ranking back int he british list?

 

[JessRulz]

....
I wonder what happend if she does convert. Would the Prince of Orange get his ranking back int he british list?

No, W-A wouldn't get his place back in the Line of Succession to the British Throne if Maxima converted. It was mentioned in the Line of Succession thread in the British part of the forum: once you are out, you can't get back in

 

[lucien]

I honestly do not think for a sec that Alexander is "worried or upset"about loosing his place in line of a british throne.It just isn't an issue to him,or any dutch for that matter,well,at least not to those I know.

The fact that Máxima,before her engagement,contacted/ran into Rev.Ter Linden(a long and dear friend of the RF) was merely to be informed about the protestant view/ideas since her hubby to be was/is of that denomination,never as a start to eventually convert herself.Just to broaden her view,which at itself is a good thing,broadening ones view.

 

[lys]

What a long list!! Is it really necessary?.
I wonder if other lines to the throne are such long.
Anyway, very very interesting subject.

 

[princess olga]

During the pressconference after the announcement of their engagement, miss Zorreguieta anserwed: "I'm orientating myself on the protestantism". In an interview, broadcasted on January 18th 2002, miss Zorreguieta stated: "Becoming a protestant is no decision that you take from the one day to the other." She made clear that the most important part is she and the Prince do share the same standards and values, that they share the same christian feelings.

The Prince of Orange said: "The forms are different. The feeling is the same."

If that's the case, that the forms merely are different while the feeling is the same, why oh why couldn't Maxima do her new husband a favor and convert into the religion that has been the tradition not only, but one of the main reasons why the Oranjes are so committed to Protestantism: their patriarch, Willem van Oranje, made it a point as his nation struggled to gain independence from the claws of Spain, some centuries ago. Willem van Oranje's protestantism is one of THE turning points of not only the van Oranje family, but also the very notion of the Netherlands as a nation. For Maxima not to convert is almost to snub this historic nod if you will.

Sure sure, Maxima promised and did study protestantism, but if the feeling is the same but just the form different, then why the heck is she still a catholic?
Don't get me wrong, I was brought up a catholic myself, in the Neth. to boot, where to this day, there is a cultural and geographical difference between the areas of that country that are predominantly catholic and vice versa.
Maxima somehow always struck me as someone who puts up a great front but all the same is someone who wants to get her cake and eat it, too. She gave up her life as a commoner for her husband and supposedly for his and his country's sake, CONVERTED into a real princess, didn't she? And she didn't mind doing that, now did she. In my opinion, if she really respects the Van Oranje history and tradition, she'd already have converted to her husband's religion. For those who say, oh but that's a personal thing, I say, she is a public figure now who's purpose in life is to represent the Dutch throne, which traditionally is protestant. And if "the feelings are the same just the form is different", which was the excuse Alexander came up with to justify his marrying a Catholic, then converting to protestantism shouldn't be such a difficult thing to accomplish, in my opinion.

 

[lucien]

HRH Princess Máxima does respect the age old traditions of the Orange Nassaus,and their openness and tolerance toward other denominations.The RF is not half as frumpy in these matters then some of the posters on this forum.IR Princess Juliana & Princess Margriet
taking the Holy Communion during Maurits and Marilène's wedding.This is 2006 AD not BC.

 

[princess olga]

HRH Princess Máxima does respect the age old traditions of the Orange Nassaus,and their openness and tolerance toward other denominations.The RF is not half as frumpy in these matters then some of the posters on this forum.IR Princess Juliana & Princess Margriet
taking the Holy Communion during Maurits and Marilène's wedding.This is 2006 AD not BC.

Agreed, but i.e. Margriet's kids won't exactly inherit the Dutch throne in all likelyhood, so they can do as they please more or less and no one cares. Maxima on the other hand, will inherit the throne because of her husband's role as CP. It is the tradition since Willem van Oranje that the Oranje family is Protestants.
Sure this is 2006, but the sheer concept of monarchy is more akin to BC than to AD 2006. Do you suggest abolishing other traditions surrounding the Dutch monarchy as well while we're at it? How about we get rid of the who le thing while we're at it?

I'm playing devil's advocate here as I think Beatrix is doing an excellent job as monarch, but I think that this holding on to catholicism of Maxima's if her dear life depended on it, just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, especially considering that in all other aspects, she makes it a point to let the world know she's drinking the royal koolaid hook, line and sinker.

The point is that traditionally, the Dutch throne is protestant. If we take traditions so lightly, why do we care about keeping the Dutch tradition of having a monarchy intact then, as well? I'm just saying that it would make sense if Maxima were consistent in this matter, that's all.

 

[crisiñaki]

What a long list!! Is it really necessary?.
I wonder if other lines to the throne are such long.
Anyway, very very interesting subject.

I think the Danish list would be even longer if it included every descendant

 

[lucien]

Agreed, but i.e. Margriet's kids won't exactly inherit the Dutch throne in all likelyhood, so they can do as they please more or less and no one cares. Maxima on the other hand, will inherit the throne because of her husband's role as CP. It is the tradition since Willem van Oranje that the Oranje family is Protestants.
Sure this is 2006, but the sheer concept of monarchy is more akin to BC than to AD 2006. Do you suggest abolishing other traditions surrounding the Dutch monarchy as well while we're at it? How about we get rid of the who le thing while we're at it?

I'm playing devil's advocate here as I think Beatrix is doing an excellent job as monarch, but I think that this holding on to catholicism of Maxima's if her dear life depended on it, just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, especially considering that in all other aspects, she makes it a point to let the world know she's drinking the royal koolaid hook, line and sinker.

The point is that traditionally, the Dutch throne is protestant. If we take traditions so lightly, why do we care about keeping the Dutch tradition of having a monarchy intact then, as well? I'm just saying that it would make sense if Maxima were consistent in this matter, that's all.

Ofcourse I do not wish the Monarchy to be abolished,heaven forbid Princess Olga.

And yes ofcourse,the Orange Nassaus are protestant since William the Silent,those that ruled as either Stadtholder or King that is,the spouses,well,one,was a different matter as Queen Anna Pavlovna remained Orthodox,didn't matter much then,prestige prevailed over denomination issues.Clinging on to catholicism for dear life?I think that is hugely exaggerated,she just doesn't have to,not for me,not for Alex,not for HM,for no-one at all.So why would it bother anyone else,except for the die hards in religious issues,and they are just not my kind.Always detested shortsightedness,and in the best of Orange Nassau traditions,I have an open eye and ear for all denominations and their views as long as they don't get pushy,or in dutch:drammerig.There's only one way then,mind your step and close the door.

The dutch Throne will remain protestant with Alexander,just his spouse isn't,I don't see any problem there,as the children will be educated within the protestant faith.Inconsistency is not the point here,she is free to believe whatever she likes,it's all embedded in the freedom of religion in this our proud little country.

And,no,I certainly would not wish for more traditions to be abolished,more then enough harm is already done over the decades in that respect,
we should cherish and protect what's left.

 

[Henri M.]

Protestantism and the Orange-Nassaus

Willem I of Nassau, Prince d'Orange (1533-1584) is not such a great hero of Protestantism as is often portrayed. His convertion was for 90% based on political calculation.

He was born at Dillenburg Castle in Nassau (in the west of Germany) in a Lutheran family. But when his uncle René de Nassau et Châlons , Prince d'Orange (1519-1544) died without issue, by testament his 11-years old cousin Willem of Nassau was made the rightful heir to the principality of Orange (in the south of France).

The young Prince was placed under personal custody of Emperor Charles V's sister Maria Queen of Hungary and Bohemia (1505-1558) who resided in Brussels as the Emperor's Governess over the Netherlands. He was raised in the Roman-Catholic tradition. He became a Knight in the Order of the Golden Fleece, the Emperor's personal page and counsel. He was one of the grandest nobles in the Netherlands and the Palais de Nassau in Brussels was famed for its lavish banquets, balls and grandeur.

In 1551 the Roman-Catholic Prince married (also Roman-Catholic) Anne of Egmond, Countess of Buren, general heiress of a dazzling fortune.

In 1561 the Prince married the lutheran Anna Princess of Saxony, daughter of the Kurfürst Moritz of Saxony. However King Philips II was 'not amused' about this mixed-marriage, the Prince himself remained Roman-Catholic.

In 1573 the Prince (in the meantime the leader of the rebellion against King Philips II) converted to Calvinism.

In 1575 the Prince the Huguenot Anne Princess de Bourbon et Montpensier, daughter of Louis III Duc de Bourbon et Montpensier.

In 1583 the Prince the Huguenot Louise de Coligny, daughter of Gaspard de Châtillon et Coligny, Amiral et Pair de France.

 

[princess olga]

Ofcourse I do not wish the Monarchy to be abolished,heaven forbid Princess Olga.

And yes ofcourse,the Orange Nassaus are protestant since William the Silent,those that ruled as either Stadtholder or King that is,the spouses,well,one,was a different matter as Queen Anna Pavlovna remained Orthodox,didn't matter much then,prestige prevailed over denomination issues.Clinging on to catholicism for dear life?I think that is hugely exaggerated,she just doesn't have to,not for me,not for Alex,not for HM,for no-one at all.So why would it bother anyone else,except for the die hards in religious issues,and they are just not my kind.Always detested shortsightedness,and in the best of Orange Nassau traditions,I have an open eye and ear for all denominations and their views as long as they don't get pushy,or in dutch:drammerig.There's only one way then,mind your step and close the door.

The dutch Throne will remain protestant with Alexander,just his spouse isn't,I don't see any problem there,as the children will be educated within the protestant faith.Inconsistency is not the point here,she is free to believe whatever she likes,it's all embedded in the freedom of religion in this our proud little country.

And,no,I certainly would not wish for more traditions to be abolished,more then enough harm is already done over the decades in that respect,
we should cherish and protect what's left.

I see your point of view. But I admit that when it comes to these royal traditions, I am a bit of a conservative..as in, if we choose to have them, we should have them..no queen in jeans for me on Prinsjesdag, I say!

 

[princess olga]

Willem I of Nassau, Prince d'Orange (1533-1584) is not such a great hero of Protestantism as is often portrayed. His convertion was for 90% based on political calculation.

Very true, but the fact remains that since his convertion, protestantism has been the religion of the Oranjes. This tied with the fact that Willem van Oranje converting also coincided with the Dutch finding and defining themselves as a Nation state. These two things are intertwined in the national identity of the Dutch.

That, plus I'm a sucker for history, and this is one of the few areas where this unique moment in the history of that country is still revered in the way the Dutch royal family celebrates its relations with its church, and I happen to like that, that's all. I myself am from a catholic family, but I really am not in favor of the van Oranje family becoming anything other than the Protestants they currently are, again, because of the fascinating story behind their religion, that's all.

 

[Marengo]

Well, I think they were usually not that serious about their religion and mainly became protestant out of opertunism (´The Hague isn´t worth a mass´ ).

Even Willem III, who is still regarded as a protestant hero by those Ulster men in Ireland had some deals with the vatican. And Queen Wilhelmina, who has this stern protestant image was attrackted by eastern religions, which is not quite the thing for staunch dutch reformed people. King Willem I, believed to be fiercely protestant married a catholic countess etc.

But I agree, I prefer the dynasty to be protestant as well, for history´s sake

 

[JohnRaven]

I am sorry but that whole list (after no 10) is just rediculous IMO. Although I am sure that there are plenty of people out there (on the list) who actually find it a very big deal to be on it. To me it's just downright arcaic and silly. I suspect many if not all mainland royals actually do not give a hoot about that list and they certainly don't consider it when they choose their bride.