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  #61  
Old 10-08-2007, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
To Maxie: I am not sure if people are more conservative, but they are less afraid to express the opinion (and vocally too) for sure.
Well, conservative might be the wrong word, but though they are less afraid to express their opinions I don't find them really open minded about a speech that clearly talks of the experiences of the princess herself. Different people have been looking at the same thing differently for ages, so for me the princess is entitled to have this opinion. If it's wise to voice it is another thing, but I think that's in the end not her responsibility.

The thing I find so typical is that opinions are changing so fast. I just watched the engagement announcement where Claus said: 'One of the things Maxima asked was how it is to be Dutch. I don't know, I replied. I don't know how it is to be Dutch. I have different loyalties'. Maybe people overlooked it back then because there were bigger things at stake at that moment, but in a way he's saying exactly the same as Maxima did last week. And that's why she also referred to Claus saying this in her speech.

So to me this is nothing else than some stupid uproar caused by some people who like to cause uproars. And the PM should have seen it coming, that's for sure.
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  #62  
Old 10-08-2007, 06:45 PM
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I'm afraid she walked into a political minefield on this one. When a people or society gets nervous or feel insecure, they always blame immigrants because naturally they are different and "not one of us". They are viewed as a threat to the stability of the populace, whether real or imagined.

The issue of immigration is a very difficult problem to tackle because for one thing, there are not always clear answers or right and wrong, if you will. But it’s hard to remember that when people are struggling and looking for answers. The emotions coupled with self-interest make this issue very inflammatory.

Maxima was very well intentioned I’m sure, but she should have left this one to the politicians. But I'm sure with all the criticisms; she already knows that by now.

I don't know much about Dutch society, so if my assumptions are not correct, please forgive my ignorance.
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  #63  
Old 10-08-2007, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Maxie View Post
There's just one advice I want to give the princess: just shut up and be pretty, because really, having a brain is totally uncalled for in this function (I'm being cynical here in case you haven't noticed yet). But seriously, I think she'd better stay out of this mess untill further notice. The subject is way too explosive at the moment, especially with that stupid press adding some extra oil to the fire.

I know your being sarcastic and cynical(), but really I think that is just what royals should do during highly political times. A more passive approach is actually more impressive. Let the politicians and leaders fight and argue about Dutch identity and culture, in the mean time the royal family should continue doing their engagements, Máxima expecially with immigrants..etc. In the Dutch would see that her actions would speak louder than [politicians' ]words.
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  #64  
Old 10-09-2007, 03:06 PM
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Your messages are very interesting.

When she said "beso a Ariane" (Alexia's birthday), that's cute but if she said this in dutch that showed her "integration"..She has to speak in dutch with her little girls when there are in public...

I think she mixed the dutch national identity and dutch cultures.

I think that her words were tactless. The political slippery ground isn't for princesses !
She seems may be too brilliant for some people, so media grab the "opportunity" to pull her down a peg or two...
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  #65  
Old 10-09-2007, 04:04 PM
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Her words itself weren't tactless, the interpretation the press and some politicians gave to it was tactless. The actual speech was very sweet and I didn't feel offended by it at all. You can read some of the first reactions from some Dutch TRF members in this very thread and long before the uproar started. Obviously it was clear to us that she was only speaking for herself and not claiming universal thruths in her speech.

And Alisa, you might as well be right about that. It's a slippery area and she should stay away from it with words and speeches and leave the babbling about it to the politicians, who can actually kill each other over it, for all I care. What happens now is that the politicians stay mute and let Maxima do the talking and having all the bad press, while they agree with what she said, because they read it beforehand and approved of it. A wise lesson for the princess?
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  #66  
Old 10-10-2007, 06:53 AM
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my opinion is that with all those travel to other continents, with her support to international Causes and her commitment to immigrants she lost the sense of reality... of her own country. that's not good for a crown princess.

if maxima thought that showing her lungs 24 hrs a day when she laughs (i continue to say i dont understand why the heck a person laughs so much during formal events), dress nice cloths and have a good background would be enough to the Dutch people she was wrong. she has to be one of them, one of the tribe.
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  #67  
Old 10-10-2007, 06:59 AM
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she becomes one of them once the tribe has accepted her and she is more than accepted, she is the most popular royal in holland

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Originally Posted by Myriam View Post
my opinion is that with all those travel to other continents, with her support to international Causes and her commitment to immigrants she lost the sense of reality... of her own country. that's not good for a crown princess.

if maxima thought that showing her lungs 24 hrs a day when she laughs (i continue to say i dont understand why the heck a person laughs so much during formal events), dress nice cloths and have a good background would be enough to the Dutch people she was wrong. she has to be one of them, one of the tribe.
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  #68  
Old 10-10-2007, 08:03 AM
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I believe that Princess was the only one that could really say something substantial on the subject. She's a foreign, she's a member of the Royal house and a future queen of the Netherlands.
Anytime some one from the immigrants says something of the same kind, one is quickly targeted by the Dutch (in public and personal life); in the style of: bugger off if you don't like it here... She, however is somehow exempt from the people also by her position and has all the right and also duty to present a mirror to the Dutch society.
I salute her for what she did and hope that the "original" Dutchies will take a look at what they are and what they have.
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  #69  
Old 10-10-2007, 02:21 PM
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well well, the Prime Minister finally defended the princess in parliament. He said that the press misquoted the princess and that her words were misused by some.
D66 leader Alexander Pechtold and others asked the PM why it took him two weeks to react i which he left the Princess out to dry.
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  #70  
Old 10-11-2007, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
well well, the Prime Minister finally defended the princess in parliament. He said that the press misquoted the princess and that her words were misused by some.
D66 leader Alexander Pechtold and others asked the PM why it took him two weeks to react i which he left the Princess out to dry.
The cowardice little twit.

Máxima was dead right expressing her own experiences,there is no proto type dutchmen,at all.All the provinces,let alone the Antilles,differ soo much not only in the very characters of its inhabitants,but also in tradition and culture,it is immense.So for anyone not from here,it is a bit silly to comment on this issue on this forum.

The differences are not just in the very different dialects,someone from Friesland in the north couldn't possibly understand someone from the south,say dear Henri's town of Maastricht,not only the language divides,the very culture of each region is so different,and I just name two now.

I recall that as a child my family moved from Breda,Brabant to the very south of the province of Limburg.The province so infinately reknown for its hospitality,now,not then,as it was with an halve eye and a lot of distance we were,what,"welcomed" as coming from "holland" as everyone and everything was named such by the Limbourgians of that time coming from outside their province,and still in some areas.Took quiet a while to "integrate" among the Limbo's,not because we didn't want to,but such was the tone,at that time already.All and everyone just plainly idealised our blessed Netherlands,oh we're soo typical here,typical there well when it all boils down we're just another frumpy country on the map.Not Máxima's words,mine.

Mind you,there isn't any other place in the world,and I have seen many,I would rather live then here,I love my country,we are all,well,the dutch,so priviliged to live here instead of any other place,but I praise it when praise is due and critisize if apropiate and only after reading carefully.
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  #71  
Old 10-11-2007, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
well well, the Prime Minister finally defended the princess in parliament. He said that the press misquoted the princess and that her words were misused by some.
D66 leader Alexander Pechtold and others asked the PM why it took him two weeks to react i which he left the Princess out to dry.
Indeed, I can't understand why people who are trained in political talk, journalism, academic writing and so on, could really make such a big fuss taking her words out of context. Certainly saying that "dé" Nederlander bestaat niet" is different from saying "de Nederlander bestaat niet"? And leave out the rest of the speech where she elaborates on this statement?
Of course it was just served in a golden plate for certain politicians who appeal to a certain portion of the population to which such a sentence as "de Nederlander bestaat niet" would have shocked, or even outraged ... They simply could not let the opportunity go ...
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  #72  
Old 10-11-2007, 07:32 PM
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From expatica:

Quote:
Balkenende: Máxima is misquoted

11 October 2007THE HAGUE – The comments made by Princess Máxima at the presentation of the report published by the Scientific Council for Government Policy (WRR) on integration have been quoted incompletely and taken out of context. Princess Máxima never said that "the Dutch identity does not exist". With far more nuance she has pointed out that the Dutch identity is not a static concept.
Read the entire article here.
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  #73  
Old 10-12-2007, 11:18 AM
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What's in a culture - part I

Well-travelled blogger Michaela Smith, who knows that "natives of any country in the world don't take kindly to critical comment or even advice from foreigners", comments on Princess Maxima's recent speech, which included the statement ''The' Dutch identity doesn't exist...".

On 24 September, Princess Maxima presented the report Identification with the Netherlands, issued by the Scientific Council for Government Policy. In her speech, Maxima stated there's no such creature as 'the' Hollander. ''The' Dutch identity doesn't exist any more than 'the' Argentinean", according to the princess. Even though she made an intelligent, realistic, and tactful plea for a shift in attitude by the Dutch away from what separates the various social groups towards emphasis on what unites them, this one-liner prompted a veritable barrage of comment and complaint, discussion and diatribe - read full article here
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  #74  
Old 10-13-2007, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by graf von Baitz View Post
I salute her for what she did and hope that the "original" Dutchies will take a look at what they are and what they have.
As a dane it is difficult for me to participate in this debate, but having read all the posts on this thread - I must say - I totally agrea with you Graf von Baitz.

And it is not only the dutchies who should take a look at what they are and what they have. This goes for all states in northeren europe who has problems with integartion - Denmark as well.

In my point of view Maximas speech was wonderfull - and though it was abouth the Netherlands - it could just as well have been about Denmark.
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  #75  
Old 10-14-2007, 05:57 PM
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A koefnoen parody of Princess Maxima: Maxima comments in the news on the uproar and the Dutch identity ; they got the hair right .
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  #76  
Old 10-14-2007, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dazzling View Post
What's in a culture - part I

Well-travelled blogger Michaela Smith, who knows that "natives of any country in the world don't take kindly to critical comment or even advice from foreigners", comments on Princess Maxima's recent speech, which included the statement ''The' Dutch identity doesn't exist...".

On 24 September, Princess Maxima presented the report Identification with the Netherlands, issued by the Scientific Council for Government Policy. In her speech, Maxima stated there's no such creature as 'the' Hollander. ''The' Dutch identity doesn't exist any more than 'the' Argentinean", according to the princess. Even though she made an intelligent, realistic, and tactful plea for a shift in attitude by the Dutch away from what separates the various social groups towards emphasis on what unites them, this one-liner prompted a veritable barrage of comment and complaint, discussion and diatribe - read full article here
You all make such great comments - i.e. Graf von Baitz, Lilla, Lucien, Marengo and others. Wish everyone in the outside world could have such a well-rounded and mature debate about this one.
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  #77  
Old 04-21-2013, 02:39 PM
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does she continue to be catholica and argentinian?
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  #78  
Old 04-21-2013, 02:45 PM
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does she continue to be catholica and argentinian?
She's Catholic, but now she's a Dutch citizen. I think she renounced her Argentine citizenship.
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  #79  
Old 04-21-2013, 03:17 PM
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She's Catholic, but now she's a Dutch citizen. I think she renounced her Argentine citizenship.
Aggentina does not allow renunciation of citizenship so from their view she remains Agentinian. She also received Dutch citizenship when she married and she does remain a Roman Catholic although of course her husband and children are Dutch Protestant.
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  #80  
Old 04-22-2013, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Well, i think Maxima quickly looks chubby in the face, and she has given birth to three children of course, so... Still I don´t think there is much difference from before the summer holidays.

--

About the speech, it focussed on ´what is a Dutchman´, can we discribe that at all? The conclusion was of course that there were all different kinds of Dutchmen and not one discription could be given. Considering the recent succes of Geert Wilders (right wing politician) it seems she is speaking out, supported by her mother-in-law no doubt. She made the remark that she doesn´t approve of the view that the country is some sort if zoo, every group in its own space.
Thanks for explaining, I find Maxima a great speaker and I agree with her most of the time. I found her especially smart,tactful and diplomatic during the recent interview about Willem-Alexanders prospect to become king.She said something like "I do not want to take his position,but I will always support him whenever he needs it and I will jump in for when he is unable to attend" (my words,not the original quote!)
That was very good and I also think her view on what a good "Dutch" is can be widely shared-bceause no matter what country you go to,there is not one prototype/scheme that everyone fits in,there are very differing opinions between individuals.
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