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  #41  
Old 10-07-2007, 05:27 PM
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In the mean time Maxima is interviewed by Magazine ´Margriet´, she says that the Netherlands didn´t have one culture in the past either. sigh, probably done before the speech! She says that the so-called ´verzuiling´ led to several identities.

I haven´t read the article yet but IMHO she makes a mistake between culture, subculture etc. There are several subcultures indeed...

Prof. Frank Akersloot, from the University of Groningen wrote this article (in Dutch only) in NRC Handelsblad on Maxima. He says that Maxima makes a mistake in the way she is reasoning.
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  #42  
Old 10-07-2007, 06:26 PM
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I read what I could of the speech and I truly found it mild.

I don't know the political situation in the Netherlands though but I think that tone of the reactions to Maxima's speech cannot be due to the words she used but rather to the fears and insecurities of those that complained about the speech.

There is no rational explanation for such a mild speech to provoke such a nasty reaction.
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  #43  
Old 10-08-2007, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
I read what I could of the speech and I truly found it mild. ...
There is no rational explanation for such a mild speech to provoke such a nasty reaction.
At this point in the discussion it really doesn't matter anymore wat MAxima has said or will say about the matter. Based on badly written and broadcasted news reports people have the idea that the Princess said that there is no such thing as a Dutch identity. Even though her speech was mild and somewhat balanced the 'popular' truth is that she said something else. There is almost nothing that can change that image. That now ís the truth.

The initial problem is that she made comments on a subject that is to controversial and political.
The second problem has to do with the PM of this country. He and several ministers knew what Maxima was going to say and approved. The now debated part of that speech should have been reformulated because they should have noticed it was to 'loosly' formulated. As soon as the critisism started they should have defended her, according to our constitutional habits. 'The king can do no wrong, ministers are responsible' The PM should have backed her up immediately, or say HE made a mistake by letting MAxima deliver that speach. That is how our system should work.

Although Maxima should have formulated the sentence a little bit better, the PM should have taken the responsibility. In the meantime Maxima has a real image problem. People now think about her much discussed father, her jetset life, presumed problems with our language and really feel its strange she thinks we have no identity....
Based on the objective truth, people are misinformed. Based on the 'popular truth' I can't say those people are wrong. And that's very unfortunately for the Princess.
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  #44  
Old 10-08-2007, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mandrake View Post
At this point in the discussion it really doesn't matter anymore wat MAxima has said or will say about the matter. Based on badly written and broadcasted news reports people have the idea that the Princess said that there is no such thing as a Dutch identity. Even though her speech was mild and somewhat balanced the 'popular' truth is that she said something else. There is almost nothing that can change that image. That now ís the truth.

The initial problem is that she made comments on a subject that is to controversial and political.
The second problem has to do with the PM of this country. He and several ministers knew what Maxima was going to say and approved. The now debated part of that speech should have been reformulated because they should have noticed it was to 'loosly' formulated. As soon as the critisism started they should have defended her, according to our constitutional habits. 'The king can do no wrong, ministers are responsible' The PM should have backed her up immediately, or say HE made a mistake by letting MAxima deliver that speach. That is how our system should work.

Although Maxima should have formulated the sentence a little bit better, the PM should have taken the responsibility. In the meantime Maxima has a real image problem. People now think about her much discussed father, her jetset life, presumed problems with our language and really feel its strange she thinks we have no identity....
Based on the objective truth, people are misinformed. Based on the 'popular truth' I can't say those people are wrong. And that's very unfortunately for the Princess.
In other words,people come to the "typical dutch" spijkers op laag water zoeken.That's one thing for sure that's very dutch.The PM/the government did take responsiblity,and they fully back the Princess in this outragious disproportionate respons,disproportionate and still,it will be forgotten in a week,people don't have long memories,they're downright shortsighted/silly/stupid creatures living by the craze of the day,as we can see on a day to day basis.Even tho leftist sh*t programs like Nova and what not try to be the best and most nauseating politically correct kid on the block again by blowing the whole issue out of proportion,the man in the street doesn't give a hoot,Máxima has no image problem,only to the weak/insecure/frustrated/backstabbing little no-bodies that crawl around in every country.And what do we usually do with creepy crawlies?.....Right!
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  #45  
Old 10-08-2007, 06:48 AM
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thank you for your post, Mandrake

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Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
I read what I could of the speech and I truly found it mild.

I don't know the political situation in the Netherlands though but I think that tone of the reactions to Maxima's speech cannot be due to the words she used but rather to the fears and insecurities of those that complained about the speech.

There is no rational explanation for such a mild speech to provoke such a nasty reaction.
I dont think it was a mild speech but im not a dutch. I thought it was funny to read maxima saying that past identities are important. Then why did she say 'i am not a argentinian. i am a dutch princess'? or when a reporter asked her what football national team she would support and she said 'Holanda!'. she could have said 'i'll support both, both countries are part of me' or something like that. Or even when she refused to sing the argentinian argentinian anthem. Why did she then? I think she did well, after all she is being payed by dutch people but i find maxima a bit inconsistent some times. she says one thing but she behaves differently.
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  #46  
Old 10-08-2007, 07:12 AM
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well she did not refuse it, it is just very important that as the dutch crown princess she sings the dutch national anthem and does not sing the argentinian one (out loud in public, when she is at home I imagine she might sing along at the beginning of a football match for instance), it quite basic appropriate behaviour that the Dutch require of her

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thank you for your post, Mandrake



I dont think it was a mild speech but im not a dutch. I thought it was funny to read maxima saying that past identities are important. Then why did she say 'i am not a argentinian. i am a dutch princess'? or when a reporter asked her what football national team she would support and she said 'Holanda!'. she could have said 'i'll support both, both countries are part of me' or something like that. Or even when she refused to sing the argentinian argentinian anthem. Why did she then? I think she did well, after all she is being payed by dutch people but i find maxima a bit inconsistent some times. she says one thing but she behaves differently.
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  #47  
Old 10-08-2007, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by lucien View Post
In other words,people come to the "typical dutch" spijkers op laag water zoeken.That's one thing for sure that's very dutch.The PM/the government did take responsiblity,and they fully back the Princess in this outragious disproportionate respons,disproportionate and still,it will be forgotten in a week,people don't have long memories,they're downright shortsighted/silly/stupid creatures living by the craze of the day,as we can see on a day to day basis.Even tho leftist sh*t programs like Nova and what not try to be the best and most nauseating politically correct kid on the block again by blowing the whole issue out of proportion,the man in the street doesn't give a hoot,Máxima has no image problem,only to the weak/insecure/frustrated/backstabbing little no-bodies that crawl around in every country.And what do we usually do with creepy crawlies?.....Right!
They defended her only after they hang her out to dry. It took a week, and an invitation from a tv program before a minister tried to 'defend' the Princess.

This is not about 'shortsighted/silly/stupid creatures living by the craze of the day'.. no way, it is the political and academical elite that started critizising the princess, from CDA, VVD, PVDV and former ministers to academic scholars. Most of these people were critical towards Maxima before 02.02.2002 and wanted to be assured she was 'democratic' Those folks had to shut up after Maxima became so very popular. This is their oppertunity as she made her first small faux pas and they use it to make us people believe she said something gigantic. That she said something about a much debated theme did make it easier for them to do so. That has happened and now some people think she denied the Dutch identity. Whatever you say, but this is not good for her image as it will be one of those memorable things that will pop-up in any tv-bio of her. That the Royal House published a short and strange declaration shows they take it seriously as well.

This discussion wil indeed fade away but to me the most important lesson is this; again, we see cowardness from a PM towards these kind of debates in which royals are involved. ( it was the same with wim kok btw.)
Maxima followed the procedures, she should have been backed up right after Geert Wilders started with his prietpraat. That's it. Not weeks later after damage is done.
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  #48  
Old 10-08-2007, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Mandrake View Post
They defended her only after they hang her out to dry. It took a week, and an invitation from a tv program before a minister tried to 'defend' the Princess.

This is not about 'shortsighted/silly/stupid creatures living by the craze of the day'.. no way, it is the political and academical elite that started critizising the princess, from CDA, VVD, PVDV and former ministers to academic scholars. Most of these people were critical towards Maxima before 02.02.2002 and wanted to be assured she was 'democratic' Those folks had to shut up after Maxima became so very popular. This is their oppertunity as she made her first small faux pas and they use it to make us people believe she said something gigantic. That she said something about a much debated theme did make it easier for them to do so. That has happened and now some people think she denied the Dutch identity. Whatever you say, but this is not good for her image as it will be one of those memorable things that will pop-up in any tv-bio of her. That the Royal House published a short and strange declaration shows they take it seriously as well.

This discussion wil indeed fade away but to me the most important lesson is this; again, we see cowardness from a PM towards these kind of debates in which royals are involved. ( it was the same with wim kok btw.)
Maxima followed the procedures, she should have been backed up right after Geert Wilders started with his prietpraat. That's it. Not weeks later after damage is done.
Must say,I wholeheartedly agree with you!
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  #49  
Old 10-08-2007, 07:35 AM
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I find it shocking that Maxima's considered by some to be equal to all the other immigrants that have flocked to the Netherlands the past decades. Refering to her as as a model for integration is just downright silly. A. Maxima has had a high level of education. B. Maxima had an (priveledged) international upbringing and career C. Maxima was handed a small army of advisors, teachers and 'friends' when she arrived, first in Brussels then The Hague. You can't compare her to the majority of the first generation of immigrants in the Netherlands most of whom hardly had any education, originated from agricultural backwaters and didn't get even 1% of the attention that Maxima received for her integration process.
It's much easier to adapt to a new country/lifestyle/language in Maxima's case and she should be honest about that particular fact once in a while.
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Old 10-08-2007, 07:48 AM
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I agree with you too Mandrake, the Prime Minister is sloppy indeed, not only in this case but he has shown in the past that he find it difficult to deal with the RF (exept the time when he took a scratchbook to Soestdijk Palace, prince Bernhard must have had a chuckle out of that one). Still, the ministers and the court could have foreseen that this speech would give some kind of upheaval these days. Pre-Fortuyn nobody would have noticed this and it would have been considered a very politically correct speech, but the integration and dutch society issue is the most important open nerve of Dutch society these years.

But how to proceed from here? Is Maxima to stay away from the subject all together? I don´t think that that is very satisfying for her or the court, who usually wants to add something more substantial than just the cutting of ribbons and giving the occassional smile. This brings them into trouble at times, but might have advantages too (the main advantage must be for the members themselves, as it must be frustrating to be a puppet and not much more).

The discussion has little/nothing to do with what Maxima said or what her point was. I don´t think for example she ever said that her intergration process was a normal one, she usually empathises that she is aware that she was/is priveliged.
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  #51  
Old 10-08-2007, 07:50 AM
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well things are changing in Holland for ordinary Dutch people too. A retired swimming intructress told me she moved in the 80ties to Twente (east netherlands) from a province in the west. At the swimming pool where she found a job as a newly divorced mother trying to start again there was a quote hung up in the coffee room which said something like God created the best part of grain for the people of Twente and the lousy part came from/or went to the East of Holland. It made me laugh when she told me but she described the tension in the room, she was a foreigner to them and not made to feel welcome. She did complain and the sign was taken down.

I do not think that the Dutch still feel such heartfelt animosity towards the Dutch from other provinces. We joke about it but it is all in good fun. And ordinary people travel too to turkey and I do not know where, when they would not do so a few decades ago. The world is becoming a smaller place for many people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRaven View Post
I find it shocking that Maxima's considered by some to be equal to all the other immigrants that have flocked to the Netherlands the past decades. Refering to her as as a model for integration is just downright silly. A. Maxima has had a high level of education. B. Maxima had an (priveledged) international upbringing and career C. Maxima was handed a small army of advisors, teachers and 'friends' when she arrived, first in Brussels then The Hague. You can't compare her to the majority of the first generation of immigrants in the Netherlands most of whom hardly had any education, originated from agricultural backwaters and didn't get even 1% of the attention that Maxima received for her integration process.
It's much easier to adapt to a new country/lifestyle/language in Maxima's case and she should be honest about that particular fact once in a while.
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  #52  
Old 10-08-2007, 08:46 AM
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But how to proceed from here? Is Maxima to stay away from the subject all together?
First of all thanks for the informative posts Marengo, I really liked to read the article from Prof. Ankersmit, he's always very bright, eloquent and very easy to understand. That can't be said of all professors.
Now about Maxima, she is mainly associated with micro-financing and muliti-culturalism. The first is her international subject, the second her national subject. Even though her father-in law, grandfather-in law and other predeccessors in this function were immigrants to this country they never felt the need to acknowledge this and didn't step up for other immigrants. Maxima did do so, bravely...

All these Royal people were priviliged in birth, fortune, wealth, education, and had an very international life. Very unlike to 'normal' people and normal immigrants
Posters on other boards have been banned because they made remarks about Maxima being so involved with this subject as they felt the non-immigrants deserved some (if not most) of her attention. Her (twisted) remarks about the non-existance of Dutch Identity makes that people will see her as a supporter for the multi-cultural ('smulbos, vertroetelen, linkse hobby's') side in the immigration debate, as opposed to Geert Wilders and others, and really she should be above parties... Although this wil fade away she should stay away from this type of discussion in the future.

She should focus more on the Oranje Fonds, an organisation active in strengtening the social side of society. They are active with all cultures in this country and do good charity work. Nobody can see anything bad in that. And she's not taking sides by doing more work for that organisation.
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  #53  
Old 10-08-2007, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
The discussion has little/nothing to do with what Maxima said or what her point was. I don´t think for example she ever said that her intergration process was a normal one, she usually empathises that she is aware that she was/is priveliged.
But did she emphathise it in that particular speech?
As far as i understood she took herself and her father-in-law as examples.
Which gives me the impression that she somehow missed the real subject/problem in her speech.
Is there a translation of the speech. I understand a few sentences but not everything. It would be interesting to see what she really said.
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  #54  
Old 10-08-2007, 09:07 AM
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i would love to comment on the issue. any ideas on where to get translations of some bits of the speech?
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  #55  
Old 10-08-2007, 09:47 AM
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i would love to comment on the issue. any ideas on where to get translations of some bits of the speech?
You could go to the Royal House website where the speech is in Dutch,
Het Koninklijk Huis
and then go to Altavista translation
AltaVista - Babel Fish Translation
and post the url and translate, its not ideal, but its not terrible either.
This would be the result

Quote:
Speech of princess Maxima, 24 September 2007

at the presentation of Wrr-rapport identification with the Netherlands, The Hague

The topic identity occupies a lot of people strongly in our country. Not only in the science and in political rings, but everywhere. It touches our all. For this reason it is well that the WRR have deepened this subject. A wrapped klus, because there this way many dimensions sit at the table.
Zo’n seven years suffered started my search to the Dutch identity. Thereby I was helped by numerous kind and wise experts. I was the privilege with many people make knowledge. As lot of to see, to hear and taste of the Netherlands.
It was a splendid and rich experience for which I am enormously grateful. But ‘de’ Dutch identity? No, that I have not found. The Netherlands is: large estimating without curtains, so that well to within can look at everyone. But also: be attached to privacy and gezelligheid. The Netherlands is: one biscuit at the tea. But also: enormous hospitality and warmth. The Netherlands is: common sense and control. Pragmatism. But also: together intense emotions live.
The Netherlands is grasp much too multi-purpose in one stereotype. ‘De’ Dutchman does not exist. As a consolation I can say you that ‘de’ Argentinian also does not exist. I find it for this reason very interesting that the title of the report of the WRR is not ‘De Dutch Identiteit’. But: ‘Identificatie with Nederland’. That leaves space for development. And for diversity.
At reading the report I had think back to 30 March 2001. the day that the verloving of my man and me was announced on the Dutch television. You can itself that perhaps still remind. I in any case heal good.
My father, prince Claus, said then the following: “Eén question very with difficulty which to answer is and that me was put repeatedly, is how it feels be Dutchman. My answer is: I weet how it is be Dutchman. I have several allegiances and I am world citizen and European and Nederlander.” Words which I am never forget. The identity and allegiance of people are no place hekken. I think that many people this way feeling.
Two years suffered products my man and I on a visit in Morocco. We a group had taken along young Dutch. Half of them had a Moroccan context. They were our guides and our interpreters. I remind myself a visit to Koran-school in Marrakesh. For us an unknown area. But they made our wegwijs in the ideas and use. Effortlessly them translated back and forth between Moroccan and Dutch. What terribly, to be in two cultures and effortlessly of to more closely be able jump at home. bridge builder is able be. I was enormously proud on them.
A another example. Previous year I was from my interest at guest at a number of conversations of Pauline Meurs with students. It concerned the development of their own identity and what means it for them Dutchman to be. Of the students Semra were, a studente rights. They told that she had hung its portfolio at succeeding for its end examination to a mast with two hang out the flag: Turkish and Dutch. A beautiful picture. A dangling portfolio. Two festively flying hang out the flag. As much as one mast.
The report of the WRR gives much attention to functional identification. That means very simple: each other learn understand because you share together an importance. Think of a sport club. Or a company. Or a school. Or a buurt. Good of it is that the emphasis does not lie on the visible differs between people. But on the common aim. And on everybody's personal qualities. Thus preconceptions can melt away. Together play. Together study. Together work. That gives a common perspective to young people with several contexts. That is enormously important in a world of open borders.
We think still surplus in dividing lines. Also newcomers do that. Type at type. But the Netherlands is no Artis. Correctly mixture and mixing give our strength. Rather I have given the next example once. I was some time ago on working visit in a hypermarket. The manager told that he had tried the turnover with a new assortment Moroccan raise products. That succeeded of no side. To a pay-desk collaborator with a Moroccan context itself interfered. She gave the products to the recommendation lower in the schap much to put. Then they flew the shop. What had the problem been? Very simple. The Moroccan huivrouwen would have wanted buy the spullen, however, but they were possible ordinary not.
For this reason I also say as an economist: it is well if you organisation has people in house which differs from each other. Diversity rewards.
Ladies and lords, according to figures of the United Nations live there on the world 175 millions people in a country where they are not born. I am of that 175 millions.
For our house a mushroom stands. Zo’n real Dutch Anwb-paddestoel. That mushroom gives the coordinates of my life.
Buenos Aires.
New York.
Brussels.
The Hague.
Wassenaar.
They stand all. With the correct direction and the distance in kilometres. Each time if I go or come home gone, comes I. All those places and people who hear, are part of my life. They belong to my identity such as Dutch. They are me dear.
I hope that the report of the WRR reason will be to an open discussion without generalisaties concerning the topic ‘identificatie with Nederland’.
That will not turn out better than expected. We expire easily in black blank think. But with that we and others do themselves too short. People have always more dimensions. People change also. That is what this way particular makes people: the capacity to develop. It is not ‘of, of’. But ‘en, en’. That does not make the discussion concerning identity easier. But much more interesting.
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  #56  
Old 10-08-2007, 11:54 AM
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A Report about the speech and the critik:

In dutch:

Nederlands - Target page

In german:

All About Royals - Target page

Sorry i don´t find it in english.
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  #57  
Old 10-08-2007, 01:26 PM
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Mandrake, post #47 was an excellent post, that's what it all boils down to, imo.

I don't get why people have to be so damn conservative these days. Where's that big 'freedom of speech' everybody is crying about all the time in this silly country? I'm not that naieve that I don't realize that Maxima can't say whatever she wants, but some politicians can? There are people up in the parliament who say things that are far worse than that there's no Dutch identity. This is all blown way out of proportion and the prime-minister should have seen this one coming. If I would have read the speech beforehand, I would strongly have adviced them to change it. Though I agree haertily with it's content, I think this is just so silly they let her go through with it. Bunch of amateurs...

I never got the 'spijkers op laag water zoeken' mentality of the Dutch (as lucien so beautifully describes it) and I'm one of them, for crying out loud. This scrutiny on everything these days just gets on my nerves. And I don't like the role of the press in this at all.
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Old 10-08-2007, 05:43 PM
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Re: Mandrake, you say that this might be the intellectual elite of CDA, VVD etc getting even as they were silent after Maxima´s marriage, but isn´t this elite more left leaning, and thus agreeing with Maxima?

Esp the role of de Telegraaf newspaper reminded me of their role in correcting the RF when they become too left to their taste. As I said before, they started the campaign against Prince Claus in the seventies. Anyway, as the monarchy should be a unifying force and not a polarizing one it is wizer for Maxima to stay away from this debate, luckily the PAVEM commission finished before the PVV was founded.

Anyway, Nova dedicated another item to the discussion, they interviewed several people, the debate now focussed less on the princess and more on the identity. Prem Radhakishun agreed with the Princess but he also pointed out that the present small mindedness of a group of people is part of the identity, as are the reactions of more open minded people.

To Maxie: I am not sure if people are more conservative, but they are less afraid to express the opinion (and vocally too) for sure.
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  #59  
Old 10-08-2007, 05:52 PM
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I dont know why the big deal about her speech at the end of it everone will have different opinions . you agree,disagree on all or half of what is said. Its an opinion and sometimes what is said is not liked by a certain group.

The group/party/minister who is against her speech is becasue he has a problem with the royal family than I think its a very unfair debate for them to start.
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Old 10-08-2007, 06:14 PM
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Well, the people disagreeing with Maxima are from the right parties, traditionally more loyal to the concept of the monarchy than their left counterparts.

The problem about Maxima expressing her opinion is that the goverment in the netherlands is responsible for the actions, words etc. of members of the Royal House. So Maxima officially can not say anything that is not in line with the goverment.

--

Ruud Lubbers (former Prime Minister) was in a debate with Prof. Paul Scheffer:

Quote:
Lubbers: Dutch identity does exist

8 October 2007
AMSTERDAM – Unlike Princess Máxima, former prime minister Ruud Lubbers does feel there is a distinct Dutch identity, though this identity is constantly being refined. "There is no one in the world that doesn't recognise a Dutch person."
Lubbers made these comments on Sunday during a debate with Paul Scheffer, author of new book Het land van aankomst (The country of arrival), organised by the Volkskrant and De Rode Hoed society. The prime minister said that some of the qualities for which the Dutch are known include individualism, energy, curiosity and initiative.
Read the entire Expatica article here. Interesting that Lubbers pointed out ´the freer interpretation of ministerial resonsibility´ that Lubbers says he introduced.

On the website of the Volkskrant they have a clip of the debate between Lubbers and Scheffer, look here.
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